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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Australia (https://britishexpats.com/forum/australia-54/)
-   -   Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning (https://britishexpats.com/forum/australia-54/leaving-uk-debt-unpaid-warning-620681/)

Anastasia Beaverhausen Jul 17th 2009 8:31 am
Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
This one crops up from time to time and is always fun viewing, but a warning to those of you who are considering leaving debt behind unpaid...

A friend has recently been contacted by a debt collection agency in Australia, looking for an unpaid UK CC debt! :ohmy:

She is pretty confident that they cant do anything legally as the debt is in the UK, but shes is cacking it and looking over her shoulder a lot. Paranoia is not a nice place to live!!

So if you are seriously thinking about it, be warned. She has been here 5 years and has only been contacted in the last week.

mad city fan Jul 17th 2009 8:36 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
As the saying goes you can run but you cant hide, I can see this thread getting alot of veiwers

xzibit Jul 17th 2009 8:45 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Surely paying the debt off before you leave is worth it, rather than having to live in fear of being caught.

Although it sounds mean, I hope she has to pay it back.

Anastasia Beaverhausen Jul 17th 2009 8:48 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by xzibit (Post 7760367)
Although it sounds mean, I hope she has to pay it back.
So do I

ABCDiamond Jul 17th 2009 8:53 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
I have mentioned this a few times in the past:

The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Australia,
Desiring to provide, on the basis of reciprocity, for the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters;

Have agreed as follows:

www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1994/Uksi_19941901_en_2.htm

The above link basically says that a court order (Civil and Commercial Matters) made in either country, can be enforced in the other country.

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 9:02 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Everything you need to know about leaving unpaid debt in the UK:

http://www.expatfocus.com/index.php?...=viewforum&f=2

While ABCdiamond is correct in that it can be enforced, 99.9% of the time it won't happen.

Centurion Jul 17th 2009 9:30 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
The following is specific to consumer credit act debts in the UK, such as credit cards and I write this not as legal advice, merely my own understanding of the position.

Section 141 of the 1974 UK Consumer Credit Act states;

141 Jurisdiction and parties
In England and Wales, the county court shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine—
(a) any action by the creditor or owner to enforce a regulated agreement or any security relating to it;
(b) any action to enforce any linked transaction against the debtor or hirer or his relative;
and such an action shall not be brought in any other court.

Now take this one step further. A County Court will not hear a claim where the defendant’s address for service as it appears on the claim form is not in England and Wales.

So my point is that if you were resident in the UK and a CCJ was issued against you BEFORE you left the country then it could be registered against you and reciprocal enforcement arrangements brought to bear.

However, if you are an Australian resident and a UK credit card company wants to then sue you for money they cannot make application to the County Court in the UK.

Twinset Jul 17th 2009 10:41 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Can they make application to recover in Australia?

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 10:45 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Twinset (Post 7760642)
Can they make application to recover in Australia?
No

RenShen Jul 17th 2009 10:47 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
A lot of these cases depend on the size of the debt. A couple of grand and I reckon you would be ok. It its tens of thousands though of course a debt collection will try to chase you for it.

Twinset Jul 17th 2009 10:49 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
So, you can just ignore the attentions of the Australian debt recovery agent then?

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 10:54 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Twinset (Post 7760669)
So, you can just ignore the attentions of the Australian debt recovery agent then?
Yeah. Just tell them you don't owe any debt on the UK and to piss off. All the debt collection agents do is buy the debt and rely on the publics ignorance and bluff to get money. They have no actual legal recourse to collect it and after (I think) 5 or 6 years it ceases to be a debt anyway.

MarkMC Jul 17th 2009 11:07 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Twinset (Post 7760669)
So, you can just ignore the attentions of the Australian debt recovery agent then?
Tell them to clear off, and if they keep coming round threaten to report them. Laws are quite strict that they cannot harass you here.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 11:49 am
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
They can't do a damn thing (unless they can prove fraud). They will only enforce civil and commercial debt - common or garden CC debt and bank loans are CONSUMER debt! Highly possible they will find you, but bugger all they can do, except piss you off!!

Catch Jul 17th 2009 12:16 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
[QUOTE=Anastasia Beaverhausen;7760324]This one crops up from time to time and is always fun viewing, but a warning to those of you who are considering leaving debt behind unpaid...

A friend has recently been contacted by a debt collection agency in Australia, looking for an unpaid UK CC debt! :ohmy:

She is pretty confident that they cant do anything legally as the debt is in the UK, but shes is cacking it and looking over her shoulder a lot. Paranoia is not a nice place to live!!

So if you are seriously thinking about it, be warned. She has been here 5 years and has only been contacted in the last week.[/QUOdebt:thumbdown:

lapin_windstar Jul 17th 2009 12:29 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Centurion (Post 7760477)
Section 141 of the 1974 UK Consumer Credit Act states;

141 Jurisdiction and parties
In England and Wales, the county court shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine—
(a) any action by the creditor or owner to enforce a regulated agreement or any security relating to it;
(b) any action to enforce any linked transaction against the debtor or hirer or his relative;
and such an action shall not be brought in any other court.
Hold on - (a) is separate from (b), isn't it? Doesn't that just say that (b) claims can only be made in County Courts but County Court has original jurisdiction for (a) claims? And can't cases be passed between courts?

And are you sure that County Court claims can't be served on people outside England & Wales (although posting alone might not count)? This suggests otherwise (as far as I can divine - not that far necessarily): http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/j...almer_0106.htm but things might have changed since then.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 12:38 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by lapin_windstar (Post 7760985)
Hold on - (a) is separate from (b), isn't it? Doesn't that just say that (b) claims can only be made in County Courts but County Court has original jurisdiction for (a) claims? And can't cases be passed between courts?

And are you sure that County Court claims can't be served on people outside England & Wales (although posting alone might not count)? This suggests otherwise (as far as I can divine - not that far necessarily): http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/j...almer_0106.htm but things might have changed since then.
A court summons has to be served in person - bit difficult if you're not in the country!

robertnhelen Jul 17th 2009 12:44 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Just another thing to consider, all companies who lend money depend on credit reference companies, most of which have UK and Aus branches, I can not say this for sure but it may have an impact on your credit rating, this may take years to happen, if at all, but in the age of globalisation who knows.

I only say this because of what our Non Uk friends have to go through to get credit here, where as for us with a very good UK rating have credit offered without problem.

No doubt I will be corrected as this is just me putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5?

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 12:44 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7760865)
Highly possible they will find you, but bugger all they can do, except piss you off!!
Not in Australia they can't. Laws against harassment in this country.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 12:47 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Deancm (Post 7761030)
Not in Australia they can't. Laws against harassment in this country.
They can find you, and they can contact you! But you are right about the harassment - they can only contact you so many times in a given period, otherwise they are breaking the law!

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 12:49 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by lapin_windstar (Post 7760985)
Hold on - (a) is separate from (b), isn't it? Doesn't that just say that (b) claims can only be made in County Courts but County Court has original jurisdiction for (a) claims? And can't cases be passed between courts?

And are you sure that County Court claims can't be served on people outside England & Wales (although posting alone might not count)? This suggests otherwise (as far as I can divine - not that far necessarily): http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/j...almer_0106.htm but things might have changed since then.
County court claims cannot be served outside of England or Wales because there jurisdiction doesn't extend beyond those borders. If they want a reciprocal agreement they have to apply to a higher court (forgot which one) and it cost a lot of money!!! This alone turns debt collection agencies off pursuing overseas debts because the chances are the money that is owed will not cover the cost of the reciprocal agreement. consequently they write the debts off and claim through insurance as a bad debt.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 12:55 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by robertnhelen (Post 7761029)
Just another thing to consider, all companies who lend money depend on credit reference companies, most of which have UK and Aus branches, I can not say this for sure but it may have an impact on your credit rating, this may take years to happen, if at all, but in the age of globalisation who knows.

I only say this because of what our Non Uk friends have to go through to get credit here, where as for us with a very good UK rating have credit offered without problem.

No doubt I will be corrected as this is just me putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5?
Credit ratings are non transferable!! If you have a job, it is easy enough to obtain credit on arrival. I have a shit credit rating (in the uk), but were offered all sorts over here!! Something to do with Data Protection stops the credit rating from transfering (i think), but it def doesn't transfer, or have any baring on your Oz credit!

DEEDEE01 Jul 17th 2009 1:51 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7761060)
Credit ratings are non transferable!! If you have a job, it is easy enough to obtain credit on arrival. I have a shit credit rating (in the uk), but were offered all sorts over here!! Something to do with Data Protection stops the credit rating from transfering (i think), but it def doesn't transfer, or have any baring on your Oz credit!
This has got to be true, we know people over here and have been here for 2 years. The had a number of CCJ's in the UK and left behind 2 loans in the region of £4000 each, luckily they sold their house just before they left.

Over here they live the life of pissin' riley (think thats the spelling!!), makes me sick to the back teeth. The honest folk who do everything by the book always get the rough end :thumbdown:

Me and the hubby have a few debts in the UK but they are our first priorty, I do worry all the time, things are so hard over here, and to have all that back in the UK aswell, OMG, I don't know how I do it sometimes, I think it's determination :confused:
I wouldn't dream running, I would constantly lie in fear and wouldn't be able to sleep with the guilt and worry !

daunted Jul 17th 2009 1:56 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
:eek: so are you telling me that someone living in Oz can just stop paying UK credit card bills and get away with it!!!!!!:blink: how the heck.........

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 1:59 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by DEEDEE01 (Post 7761250)
Over here they live the life of pissin' riley (think thats the spelling!!), makes me sick to the back teeth. The honest folk who do everything by the book always get the rough end :thumbdown:
Why would it make you sick to the back teeth? How does someone elses debt affect you?

Me and the hubby have a few debts in the UK but they are our first priorty, I do worry all the time, things are so hard over here, and to have all that back in the UK aswell, OMG, I don't know how I do it sometimes, I think it's determination :confused:
I wouldn't dream running, I would constantly lie in fear and wouldn't be able to sleep with the guilt and worry !
Do you think the banks and credit card companies would think twice about chucking you out of your home if you were in financial difficulty? All the companies you have debt to are insured. They will just write it off as a bad debt and claim it on tax and insurance. At the end of the day they will lose nothing and yet you will go through a whole load of stress to get it paid...

Makes you wonder doesn't it?

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 1:59 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by daunted (Post 7761274)
:eek: so are you telling me that someone living in Oz can just stop paying UK credit card bills and get away with it!!!!!!:blink: how the heck.........
Yup!! But if you get a whole lot of money with the intention of never paying it back, then you COULD be done for fraud. But say you have got it over the years, then bugger off, nothing they can or will do!

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 2:05 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by daunted (Post 7761274)
:eek: so are you telling me that someone living in Oz can just stop paying UK credit card bills and get away with it!!!!!!:blink: how the heck.........
Basically, yes.

ronan_in_Oz Jul 17th 2009 2:06 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by daunted (Post 7761274)
:eek: so are you telling me that someone living in Oz can just stop paying UK credit card bills and get away with it!!!!!!:blink: how the heck.........
But then forget returning back to the UK.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 2:09 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by ronan_in_Oz (Post 7761316)
But then forget returning back to the UK.
Yeah, that is the other side of the coin! There really is no going back . . . unless you wait about 6 years, then it is wiped!

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 2:10 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by ronan_in_Oz (Post 7761316)
But then forget returning back to the UK.
For 5 years anyway. After then it all beomes null and void. Clean slate.

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 2:12 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Deancm (Post 7761326)
For 5 years anyway. After then it all beomes null and void. Clean slate.
Dean, stop copying me! :p

DEEDEE01 Jul 17th 2009 2:12 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Deancm (Post 7761290)
Why would it make you sick to the back teeth? How does someone elses debt affect you?

Makes me sick because I have been honest all my life and never borrowed money with the intention of doing one just coz I needed the cash to move, honesty obviously doesn't pay, excuse the pun ! Quite a few thousand pounds worth of wrongs never make a right in my eyes.



Do you think the banks and credit card companies would think twice about chucking you out of your home if you were in financial difficulty? All the companies you have debt to are insured. They will just write it off as a bad debt and claim it on tax and insurance. At the end of the day they will lose nothing and yet you will go through a whole load of stress to get it paid...

Makes you wonder doesn't it?
It does make you wonder actually, stress is a very big factor for me at the minute. I have, to date lost 40% of my hair (unfortunately not the excess 2 stone :rofl:),

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 2:14 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7761338)
Dean, stop copying me! :p
You said 6 years! :p

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 2:16 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Deancm (Post 7761347)
You said 6 years! :p
Yeah, cause I'm a girl and I know better!!!

England and Scotland are different - one is 5 years the other is 6 - can't remember which is which though!! Didn't want someone jumping off the plane after 5 years and getting done!

ronan_in_Oz Jul 17th 2009 2:18 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7761355)
Yeah, cause I'm a girl and I know better!!!
You kidding. Aren't you :p

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 2:20 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by DEEDEE01 (Post 7761339)
It does make you wonder actually, stress is a very big factor for me at the minute. I have, to date lost 40% of my hair (unfortunately not the excess 2 stone :rofl:),
Just because you don't pay debts doesn't mean you are dishonest. Many people enter into debt with the full intention of paying it back and then they enter into financial hardship and life becomes a nightmare with constant harassment from collection agencies etc.

Bear this in mind, the banks wouldn't have a second though about putting YOU on the street. Being in a situation of financial difficulty is stressful enough without the harassment and threats. It has nothing to do with dishonesty. Dishonesty is entering in an agreement providing false information with absolutely no intention of repaying. As I said, the banks are insured and don't lose out.

Loyalty is a two way street. Why be loyal to an organisation that will shit on you at the first opportunity?

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 2:21 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by ronan_in_Oz (Post 7761361)
You kidding. Aren't you :p
On the girl part or knowing better? :p

kar-kier Jul 17th 2009 2:22 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by Deancm (Post 7761372)
Just because you don't pay debts doesn't mean you are dishonest. Many people enter into debt with the full intention of paying it back and then they enter into financial hardship and life becomes a nightmare with constant harassment from collection agencies etc.

Bear this in mind, the banks wouldn't have a second though about putting YOU on the street. Being in a situation of financial difficulty is stressful enough without the harassment and threats. It has nothing to do with dishonesty. Dishonesty is entering in an agreement providing false information with absolutely no intention of repaying. As I said, the banks are insured and don't lose out.

Loyalty is a two way street. Why be loyal to an organisation that will shit on you at the first opportunity?

Def agree with you there Dean. Doing a bunk with a load of money is different to leaving debt you can't afford to pay!!

Deancm Jul 17th 2009 2:23 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7761355)
Yeah, cause I'm a girl and I know better!!!

England and Scotland are different - one is 5 years the other is 6 - can't remember which is which though!! Didn't want someone jumping off the plane after 5 years and getting done!
I'm not sure which either. I'll have to refer to that thread I posted at the start of this. Some great information about this there.

Chances are though, if it was 6 years and you jumped off the plane after 5, it would probably take them a year to realise you were back in the country.

DEEDEE01 Jul 17th 2009 2:24 pm
Re: Leaving UK Debt Unpaid - A Warning
 
Originally Posted by kar-kier (Post 7761386)
Def agree with you there Dean. Doing a bunk with a load of money is different to leaving debt you can't afford to pay!!
My point EXACTLY, think my point my have been missed.

But I still stick to the fact that it isn't right. Do scenarios like this not make a much bigger picture in the long run, sign of the current times ?


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