Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
Dec 17th 2008, 5:06 am
#32
Karma Comedian
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,506
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
To be fair, I think one of the methods is using long tubes of ice from the poles, they knwo how old (based on depth) that ice is and how much carbon dioxide it contains.
However, you may have meant something like "the earth is billions of years old and man has only been here a million or so years, only about 100 of those years has included industrial activity. The ability to draw statistically relevant correlations based on 100 years of data out of 4 billion is too small to be of any meaningful value."
However, you may have meant something like "the earth is billions of years old and man has only been here a million or so years, only about 100 of those years has included industrial activity. The ability to draw statistically relevant correlations based on 100 years of data out of 4 billion is too small to be of any meaningful value."
Dec 17th 2008, 5:08 am
#33
Account Closed
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,784
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
To be fair, I think one of the methods is using long tubes of ice from the poles, they knwo how old (based on depth) that ice is and how much carbon dioxide it contains.
However, you may have meant something like "the earth is billions of years old and man has only been here a million or so years, only about 100 of those years has included industrial activity. The ability to draw statistically relevant correlations based on 100 years of data out of 4 billion is too small to be of any meaningful value."
However, you may have meant something like "the earth is billions of years old and man has only been here a million or so years, only about 100 of those years has included industrial activity. The ability to draw statistically relevant correlations based on 100 years of data out of 4 billion is too small to be of any meaningful value."
Dec 17th 2008, 5:20 am
#34
Karma Comedian
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,506
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
None the less that simply states how much carbon was around when rather than whetehr there is sufficent data to draw a correlation with industrial activity. Even a correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.
By way of a trivial example, there may well be a strong correlation between say life expectancy and the number of cars on the road ( I suspect there is). That of course DOES NOT mean that increased life expectancy CAUSES more car ownerhsip.
By way of a trivial example, there may well be a strong correlation between say life expectancy and the number of cars on the road ( I suspect there is). That of course DOES NOT mean that increased life expectancy CAUSES more car ownerhsip.
Dec 17th 2008, 5:38 am
#35
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,043
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
None the less that simply states how much carbon was around when rather than whetehr there is sufficent data to draw a correlation with industrial activity. Even a correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.
By way of a trivial example, there may well be a strong correlation between say life expectancy and the number of cars on the road ( I suspect there is). That of course DOES NOT mean that increased life expectancy CAUSES more car ownerhsip.
By way of a trivial example, there may well be a strong correlation between say life expectancy and the number of cars on the road ( I suspect there is). That of course DOES NOT mean that increased life expectancy CAUSES more car ownerhsip.
Dec 17th 2008, 5:51 am
#36
Account Closed
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,316
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
We will agree to differ then <g>.
Australians are either the biggest or second biggest emitters per capita in the world, even excluding the "virtual" emissions that the Chinese do by proxy with our coal.
When you think that, of all the countries in the worls, Australia has by far the largest area of uninhabited, sunbaked land with a small population overall, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make the country almost zero-polluting given time.
And giving end-users rebates to soften the increased costs of trading is IMO a farce. After all, if the end user - ie., you and I - doesn't bear the increased costs then the whole scheme is useless. The whole *point* of trading is to make the end user cut back on consumption of energy.
It's all a bit academic as far as I'm concerned, anyway. Another 20 years will see me underground and I don't have any children or grandchildren to worry about so I don't have to protect any genes <g>. It just seems a shame that what is quite a nice planet stands a fair chance of being dead in a few hundred years.
Australians are either the biggest or second biggest emitters per capita in the world, even excluding the "virtual" emissions that the Chinese do by proxy with our coal.
When you think that, of all the countries in the worls, Australia has by far the largest area of uninhabited, sunbaked land with a small population overall, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make the country almost zero-polluting given time.
And giving end-users rebates to soften the increased costs of trading is IMO a farce. After all, if the end user - ie., you and I - doesn't bear the increased costs then the whole scheme is useless. The whole *point* of trading is to make the end user cut back on consumption of energy.
It's all a bit academic as far as I'm concerned, anyway. Another 20 years will see me underground and I don't have any children or grandchildren to worry about so I don't have to protect any genes <g>. It just seems a shame that what is quite a nice planet stands a fair chance of being dead in a few hundred years.
If you want to credit Aus with the Aussie coal burnt in China surely Aus should get the carbon debit for all the Aussie uranium being used in nuclear power plants around the world?
Dec 17th 2008, 5:53 am
#37
Account Closed
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 495
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
I don't get it.
For months before the election Mr Rudd was castigating the Coalition for their attitude to climate change.
Now, after a year in office and comfortably back home after the climate conference they announce a piddling reduction in proposed emissions coupled with let-outs for the polluters and subsidies for end-users.
Either he accepts the prognostications of the IPCC or he doesn't. If he *does* then a serious attack on emissions is required to avoid a runaway greenhouse effect. If he doesn't, then what the hell does he think he's doing?
Beats me.....
For months before the election Mr Rudd was castigating the Coalition for their attitude to climate change.
Now, after a year in office and comfortably back home after the climate conference they announce a piddling reduction in proposed emissions coupled with let-outs for the polluters and subsidies for end-users.
Either he accepts the prognostications of the IPCC or he doesn't. If he *does* then a serious attack on emissions is required to avoid a runaway greenhouse effect. If he doesn't, then what the hell does he think he's doing?
Beats me.....
Dec 17th 2008, 6:02 am
#38
Karma Comedian
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,506
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
No, clearly you are right. Lets spend billions and billions of dollars on increasing the costs of energy. Lets make the poor be particulary affected as a result of not being able to afford to travel as much, paying more for the increased cost of transporting food, not being able to afford to use as much fuel for heating/cooling/cooking. Their increasingly miserable lives and early deaths will not be in vain.
Dec 17th 2008, 6:16 am
#39
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 36
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
Well I think ive proven my point - there are arguments on both sides yet all the environmentalists are out in force putting it all accross as fact.
What i find particularly amusing is that the spelling police were straight in on my first post trying to use that to discredit my point, then they go and make mistakes themselves...
ha ha
Anyway I love the climate debate. Its so silly, everyone feels so strongly yet the average person on the street has no concept of greenhouse gas at all.
Water vapour is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2-far far more powerful and makes up 95% of all greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. CO2 is just a fraction of 1% Hmmm yea it must be CO2 thats the problem - yes thats right.
The government would make more impact on global warming if they ban farting
What i find particularly amusing is that the spelling police were straight in on my first post trying to use that to discredit my point, then they go and make mistakes themselves...
ha ha
Anyway I love the climate debate. Its so silly, everyone feels so strongly yet the average person on the street has no concept of greenhouse gas at all.
Water vapour is a far more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2-far far more powerful and makes up 95% of all greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. CO2 is just a fraction of 1% Hmmm yea it must be CO2 thats the problem - yes thats right.
The government would make more impact on global warming if they ban farting
Dec 17th 2008, 6:29 am
#41
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Canberra
Posts: 899
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
We will agree to differ then <g>.
And giving end-users rebates to soften the increased costs of trading is IMO a farce. After all, if the end user - ie., you and I - doesn't bear the increased costs then the whole scheme is useless. The whole *point* of trading is to make the end user cut back on consumption of energy.
\.
And giving end-users rebates to soften the increased costs of trading is IMO a farce. After all, if the end user - ie., you and I - doesn't bear the increased costs then the whole scheme is useless. The whole *point* of trading is to make the end user cut back on consumption of energy.
\.
Of course, there will be winners and losers as consumption patterns gradually shift - hence the need to invest some of the proceeds into industry support/transformation.
Sounds like a good approach to me.
Dec 17th 2008, 6:36 am
#42
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Westernport Mornington Peninsula
Posts: 1,761
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
The cutting down of the Amazon forest is contributing to global warming however they wish to move forward and become industrialised just like us so we cannot blame them. We need to go nuclear and plant trees and everyone says not in my back yard.
Dec 17th 2008, 7:09 am
#43
Account Closed
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,784
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
and can they accurately gauge what the temperature 1 million years ago from carbon levels in ice and rock?
people will need actual evidence of global warming before anything useful is done
Dec 17th 2008, 7:39 am
#44
no stressin no fussin....
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Fantasy Island....
Posts: 12,616
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
The point is, if you accept that the planet will become essentially uninhabitable in 50 or 100 years, economics doesn't come into it at all.
If you do not accept the IPCC conclusions then doing nothing is the correct option.
Playing with words - which is his strategy - is illogical as well as being fatuous.
If you do not accept the IPCC conclusions then doing nothing is the correct option.
Playing with words - which is his strategy - is illogical as well as being fatuous.
Given world economics is on it's knees and we have still to feel the impact, Krudd was left with a decision of do nothing, or do something.
He took the latter decision
Dec 17th 2008, 7:45 am
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Just what is Mr Rudd up to?
A news article has just quoted this:
and
With the ALP 2009 plan and the Liberal 2007 plan now so alike, they could actually agree on something and get it done !!
16/12/2008
After all that, we are more or less back where we started. The Rudd model for tackling climate change now looks remarkably similar to the Howard model from 2007.
By the time the Coalition has forced further changes in the Senate — as it will — the scheme could end up almost identical to John Howard's.
After all that, we are more or less back where we started. The Rudd model for tackling climate change now looks remarkably similar to the Howard model from 2007.
By the time the Coalition has forced further changes in the Senate — as it will — the scheme could end up almost identical to John Howard's.
(Wouldn't it make sense to invite the Liberals to join in designing the scheme, so it had bipartisan support and investors would know it would last? Yes, but we don't do things that way.)