Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Nov 11th 2009, 10:15 am
#16
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Hmmm. I have to agree with this. I awoke this morning to discover that KRudd had been knocked back by both New Zealand and the Phillipenes for taking in the alleged asylum seekers currently on a boat near Indonesia. I found that a bit embarrassing myself, that the country attempting to portray itself as the superpower of the Southern Hemisphere is going around cap in hand trying to offload the problem onto other nations.
It is right to take a stand, and to draw a line in the sand on this issue, even if that means that the refugees are forcibly offloaded in Indonesia. But he does need to take that stand, and demonstrate that Australia will take a firm line.
There seems little doubt that these people are financial refugees, not people seeking asylum in fear of their lives. If so, they should have claimed asylum in Indonesia, or wherever they first landed after fleeing Sri Lanka.
KRudd is right in not accepting responsibility for these people - after all, they were picked up in Indonesian waters, and Australia was allegedly helping the Indonesian government, who now want to wash their hands of the matter - but I think that he needs to demonstrate that his policy through strong action as opposed to all of this dilly dallying around.
S
It is right to take a stand, and to draw a line in the sand on this issue, even if that means that the refugees are forcibly offloaded in Indonesia. But he does need to take that stand, and demonstrate that Australia will take a firm line.
There seems little doubt that these people are financial refugees, not people seeking asylum in fear of their lives. If so, they should have claimed asylum in Indonesia, or wherever they first landed after fleeing Sri Lanka.
KRudd is right in not accepting responsibility for these people - after all, they were picked up in Indonesian waters, and Australia was allegedly helping the Indonesian government, who now want to wash their hands of the matter - but I think that he needs to demonstrate that his policy through strong action as opposed to all of this dilly dallying around.
S
Rudd is rightfully worried about outraging the left-wing on this issue. Although Rudd is almost as conservative as Howard, the last thing he wants is the left wing chardonnay socialists on his back for the next couple of years.
Nov 11th 2009, 10:26 am
#17
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Rudd gets a 7 out of 10 from me - he's a smart politician with a strong command of policy issues but he's trying too hard to be all things to all people. Nobody knows what Rudd stands for except micro-managing the levers of power. However, there is a certain reformist zeal about this government which I find refreshing after the lazy days of the Liberal Coalition's long tenure.
Howard gets a 5 out of 10 from me - a true conviction politician. You couldn't fault him for being inconsistent, but he alienated a lot of people and was not inclusive when it came to ethnic minorities. He could have done more with the proceeds of the mining boom and he was not a nation builder in the sense that the country's culture and identity stagnated under his tenure.
Howard gets a 5 out of 10 from me - a true conviction politician. You couldn't fault him for being inconsistent, but he alienated a lot of people and was not inclusive when it came to ethnic minorities. He could have done more with the proceeds of the mining boom and he was not a nation builder in the sense that the country's culture and identity stagnated under his tenure.
Nov 12th 2009, 12:04 am
#18
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Very interesting 
. Thanks to the OP for beginning it. Something that's notable is emotions don't seem to run deep on this thread - unlike some of the recent UK political threads. To me, that's a strong indication that Australia is moving in the right direction and is confident/at ease with itself 
. Thanks to the OP for beginning it. Something that's notable is emotions don't seem to run deep on this thread - unlike some of the recent UK political threads. To me, that's a strong indication that Australia is moving in the right direction and is confident/at ease with itself
Nov 12th 2009, 12:18 am
#19
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
I agree with most of what you've said. Indonesia is behaving badly insofar as the Australian vessel was merely fulfilling Indonesia's duty under inernational law to rescue the asylum seekers in their search and rescue zone. They clearly regard this as Australia's problem when these people were picked up in their zone and, furthermore, many of them were residing in Indonesian refugee camps.
Rudd is rightfully worried about outraging the left-wing on this issue. Although Rudd is almost as conservative as Howard, the last thing he wants is the left wing chardonnay socialists on his back for the next couple of years.
Rudd is rightfully worried about outraging the left-wing on this issue. Although Rudd is almost as conservative as Howard, the last thing he wants is the left wing chardonnay socialists on his back for the next couple of years.
It looks like they are going to be returned to Sri Lanka now. I agree that Indonesia has behaved reprehensibly in this matter. Not too sure what else Krudd should have done though. I'm not sure that he could have waved sanctions at them over this matter...
S
Nov 12th 2009, 12:47 am
#21
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
I'd go for Howard any day of the week. Rudd is, and always has been, a narcissistic bully - ask anyone who has known him especially in the Qld public service. He has done little if anything of any note - it has all been hot air and blather.
I dispute the concept of moral bankrupcy under Howard - there was certainly more of an emphasis on personal responsibility which I appreciated. After surviving Keating - who was the epitome of bully boy wedge politics - Howard was a breath of fresh air. If you wanted to work it was there for you and the expectation was that you would look after yourself if you were able and not expect everyone else to do it for you.
Of course, everyone is going to have a view coloured by their own political leanings as you would expect but there is an increasing view out there - and not just from the right side of politics - that this numpty is going to be worse than Whitlam and that is saying something.
I dispute the concept of moral bankrupcy under Howard - there was certainly more of an emphasis on personal responsibility which I appreciated. After surviving Keating - who was the epitome of bully boy wedge politics - Howard was a breath of fresh air. If you wanted to work it was there for you and the expectation was that you would look after yourself if you were able and not expect everyone else to do it for you.
Of course, everyone is going to have a view coloured by their own political leanings as you would expect but there is an increasing view out there - and not just from the right side of politics - that this numpty is going to be worse than Whitlam and that is saying something.
The casualisation of the workforce under Howard has had a dramatic impact on society ..
One positive for Howard is his work for East Timor ... they are now their own nation state..
Nov 12th 2009, 1:02 am
#22
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Give me Howard any day over KRudd.
It was work choices that have tipped the balance.
And for someone who arrived here only 3 years ago after working in other parts of the world I could not understand what was wrong with them.
As it happens 20+ fitters that work under me had been on AWA's, when current leaders changed the rules there was a massive rush and all who could have signed new AWA's for 3 to 5 years at the last minute.
All who have been emplyed since (including one today) have signed (word for word the same contract) new interim contracts that all run out on January 1st.
As far as I understand the laws that will regulate their employment conditions after January 1st have not been passsed yet. Nobody has a clue what will happen.
Nice to scream "down with work choices" and ban them but not fixing rules on what happens next is typical for this mob.
It was work choices that have tipped the balance.
And for someone who arrived here only 3 years ago after working in other parts of the world I could not understand what was wrong with them.
As it happens 20+ fitters that work under me had been on AWA's, when current leaders changed the rules there was a massive rush and all who could have signed new AWA's for 3 to 5 years at the last minute.
All who have been emplyed since (including one today) have signed (word for word the same contract) new interim contracts that all run out on January 1st.
As far as I understand the laws that will regulate their employment conditions after January 1st have not been passsed yet. Nobody has a clue what will happen.
Nice to scream "down with work choices" and ban them but not fixing rules on what happens next is typical for this mob.
Nov 12th 2009, 1:52 am
#23
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Seems to be nobodies way right now. I was in Canberra the other day listening to a tour guide. Apparently Labour don't have an outright majority so they need to convince the independent from SA and the bloke from family first to support their policies.
I'm surprised how the say-so from two people can have so much sway.
I'm surprised how the say-so from two people can have so much sway.
Nov 12th 2009, 2:51 am
#24
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Give me Howard any day over KRudd.
It was work choices that have tipped the balance.
And for someone who arrived here only 3 years ago after working in other parts of the world I could not understand what was wrong with them.
As it happens 20+ fitters that work under me had been on AWA's, when current leaders changed the rules there was a massive rush and all who could have signed new AWA's for 3 to 5 years at the last minute.
All who have been emplyed since (including one today) have signed (word for word the same contract) new interim contracts that all run out on January 1st.
As far as I understand the laws that will regulate their employment conditions after January 1st have not been passsed yet. Nobody has a clue what will happen.
Nice to scream "down with work choices" and ban them but not fixing rules on what happens next is typical for this mob.
It was work choices that have tipped the balance.
And for someone who arrived here only 3 years ago after working in other parts of the world I could not understand what was wrong with them.
As it happens 20+ fitters that work under me had been on AWA's, when current leaders changed the rules there was a massive rush and all who could have signed new AWA's for 3 to 5 years at the last minute.
All who have been emplyed since (including one today) have signed (word for word the same contract) new interim contracts that all run out on January 1st.
As far as I understand the laws that will regulate their employment conditions after January 1st have not been passsed yet. Nobody has a clue what will happen.
Nice to scream "down with work choices" and ban them but not fixing rules on what happens next is typical for this mob.
Yep work choices were his poll tax. Not a bad idea in general but far too much bad publicity and badly implemented. I respect Howard for his workplace reforms, trying to break the unions' grip. He almost succeeded. It's a shame now Labor are in they've more power again, distrupting a lot of construction and causing jobs to go abroad as firms minimise the amount of down time on thier sites by manufacturing in Asia. For example all the gas rigs being built in NW WA are mostly being assembled in Asia, this is not because it is cheaper, it's because of the union trouble Woodside had in the 90s. Unions once were a fine institution set up for the rights of workers from unscroupulous bosses, now they are a drag on the whole economy.
Nov 12th 2009, 9:49 am
#25
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
You have to go back before Howard to understand the Howard and Rudd years.
Union power was total and employers that survived were as hard as nails because otherwise they wouldn't survive. Strikes were the order of the day - literally. Every day some group were out on strike. The intimidation was a disgrace to a civilised country.
Fast forward to 2009 and NSW is a taste of what it used to be like: the state government is run to all intents and purposes by, and for the benefit of, the NSW Labour party.
Rudd distances himself as much as is decent from Rees and his lot, but when it comes down to it they are of the same mould.
I would give the Howard government 8/10 - possibly more, given the mess they took over - and Rudd 4/10 but only because he looks nicely brushed. If I was able to work out what if anything he stands for I might change my opinion <g>.
Union power was total and employers that survived were as hard as nails because otherwise they wouldn't survive. Strikes were the order of the day - literally. Every day some group were out on strike. The intimidation was a disgrace to a civilised country.
Fast forward to 2009 and NSW is a taste of what it used to be like: the state government is run to all intents and purposes by, and for the benefit of, the NSW Labour party.
Rudd distances himself as much as is decent from Rees and his lot, but when it comes down to it they are of the same mould.
I would give the Howard government 8/10 - possibly more, given the mess they took over - and Rudd 4/10 but only because he looks nicely brushed. If I was able to work out what if anything he stands for I might change my opinion <g>.
Nov 18th 2009, 11:38 am
#26
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
...
I dispute the concept of moral bankrupcy under Howard - there was certainly more of an emphasis on personal responsibility which I appreciated. After surviving Keating - who was the epitome of bully boy wedge politics - Howard was a breath of fresh air. If you wanted to work it was there for you and the expectation was that you would look after yourself if you were able and not expect everyone else to do it for you.
Of course, everyone is going to have a view coloured by their own political leanings as you would expect but there is an increasing view out there - and not just from the right side of politics - that this numpty is going to be worse than Whitlam and that is saying something.
I dispute the concept of moral bankrupcy under Howard - there was certainly more of an emphasis on personal responsibility which I appreciated. After surviving Keating - who was the epitome of bully boy wedge politics - Howard was a breath of fresh air. If you wanted to work it was there for you and the expectation was that you would look after yourself if you were able and not expect everyone else to do it for you.
Of course, everyone is going to have a view coloured by their own political leanings as you would expect but there is an increasing view out there - and not just from the right side of politics - that this numpty is going to be worse than Whitlam and that is saying something.
I think Howard was an extremist (compared to centrist politicians) and disagree, for example, with his handling of children in detention, purposely lying to us about WMD's in Iraq to make his case for the war, changes to unfair dismissal laws and his drive to destroy unions rather than introduce balance to work place laws.
His decisions were driven by ideology and that usually leads to bad decisions, just as it does on the left of politics as well. I found his govt had a heavy hand, rather than the traditional liberal party tradition of a light touch and small govt. He even increased welfare dramatically expanding it through the middle classes to try to manipulate people as he saw fit.
Give me a proper Liberal any day but Australia became a better place the day Howard left.
Nov 19th 2009, 6:24 am
#27
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
I disagree, what finished Howard off was he opened his big mouth and said he'd retire before seeing out the entire term and Costello would take over....
Krudd just seems to be all spin and soundbites - not to mention the fact he's too busy jet setting around the world trying to show what a top bloke he is rather than actually sorting things out for the Australian public. How this asylum standoff has been resolved is disgusting - I wonder how many days or weeks it will be until we have another load refusing to get off at Indonesia because they want fast tracking here?
Krudd just seems to be all spin and soundbites - not to mention the fact he's too busy jet setting around the world trying to show what a top bloke he is rather than actually sorting things out for the Australian public. How this asylum standoff has been resolved is disgusting - I wonder how many days or weeks it will be until we have another load refusing to get off at Indonesia because they want fast tracking here?
Nov 19th 2009, 12:19 pm
#28
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
I disagree, what finished Howard off was he opened his big mouth and said he'd retire before seeing out the entire term and Costello would take over....
Krudd just seems to be all spin and soundbites - not to mention the fact he's too busy jet setting around the world trying to show what a top bloke he is rather than actually sorting things out for the Australian public. How this asylum standoff has been resolved is disgusting - I wonder how many days or weeks it will be until we have another load refusing to get off at Indonesia because they want fast tracking here?
Krudd just seems to be all spin and soundbites - not to mention the fact he's too busy jet setting around the world trying to show what a top bloke he is rather than actually sorting things out for the Australian public. How this asylum standoff has been resolved is disgusting - I wonder how many days or weeks it will be until we have another load refusing to get off at Indonesia because they want fast tracking here?
Nov 19th 2009, 1:57 pm
#29
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
Nov 19th 2009, 2:07 pm
#30
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Re: Howard's Way or Rudd's Way?
