tomar

Thank you for your kind words. The post just struck a chord with me.
Luckily my cousins children love to include us in all their little children's lives, so we sort of have surrogate grandchildren quite close, helps a bit.

paulry

It's a sad situation with everyone as losers right now. I don't know your circumstances but I would be trying to speak sense to your son. Actually he deserves a good telling off (to put it mildly).

That's a nice ray of sunshine which I'm sure helps. Good on your cousins for stepping forward and making it easier for you. I'm sure their kids love having another granny and granddad

spouse of scouse

I'm glad you have some nice family around. It's good to get things off your chest and most people are happy to have a yak about the obstacles life has a habit of chucking at us :-)

tomar

My husband did try to say something just before they left.
The difficulty is that although tempting to really say something, it would probably cause a major family upset, so we have put up with it, as logically our son should side with his wife.
Our daughter has also tried to mention a few home truths to her brother as they are quite close, but at the moment we think the marriage is a bit rocky so it's best left alone.
See what happens if we do go back to UK next year.
Thank you all for your support.

carolinephillips

Hmmm. Does this really apply? If his wife is causing harm to others should he stand by her? At what point should he intervene? Before the inevitable family rift and prevent further damage, or wait for the rocky marriage to fall apart and have no access to the kids at all if she gets custody? Tricky, but to me it sounds like the wife needs to be educated as to what her selfish behaviour is doing to the family.

BadgeIsBack

Happy Families eh...good old battling.

Kids need time to be kids - and they need to be brought up to standard now and then.

Nothing else is worth worrying about. Grandparents are there to help with standards. It is easier coming from that side when a sharp rebuke in the morning is then followed by a plate of biscuits in the afternoon...I can't imagine why it's so important that it creates WW3 in the family....

Good manners are essential but being a good guest is more important. The worse are those who turn into 'knife and fork' adults who are such a bore at the dinner table they never say anything but spend so much time trying to keep their mouth closed and energy holding their knife and fork like a pen it's painful.

BadgeIsBack

Joking aside, it's hard for today's parents.

The older generation have to remember that expectations of what you can do are now curtailed: in many circles slapping a child is considered a no no. It is about to become illegal in many countries if not already.

What worked in the 1970s is almost a no-go zone.

And angrily rebuking a child (call it reinforcement if you will) starts to wear off after awhile - this is why there is a generation of 'be nice' parents - they have been left with few devices. If the parents have little resources to interest their children - there is only so much on the Box and in the local supermarket then domestic life can be a bore in this world of ours.

The parenting books talk about immediate reinforcement and time out zones but a parent can run out of devices.

I remember corporal punishment as a child and I remember feeling sorry for myself but it was also, after the event, a very calming device. I knew full well I needed to be brought down and believe it or not, I found the inner reflection useful. I then bounced back.

I do occasionally slap my kids - in the main, it's when they have put themselves in immediate danger (rare) or when they have been acting in punitive ways with their siblings showing complete disregard for their integrity.

In the main, we are obliged to parent like the books tell us to (not that I have ever read one - infact I tend to put them down quickly) which is lots of positive experiences and shared conversation.

I think what damages children is when nothing ever happens and their lives are nothing but rules and more destructively, silence, creativity and lack of opportunity. I know of a family here in Australia who I would imagine are stickler for the rules- where the family eats in silence - the Harrods bag in the kitchen, the *English* Women's Weekly on the 'settee', English 'treats' in the cupboard and the children (and parents) are a silent and morose bunch holding their knifes and forks like pens. We invited them over and they apologised for how dull they were (!) They are also the sort of people who say things like 'They don't do this, and don't do that'. Well - they don't do much themselves....

Kelli28

I think smacking kids is wrong- I was smacked as kid and found it traumatising! I've never smacked my own son and he's turned out lovely kind, caring, and doing very well at school without the need for corporal punishment.

I think smacking kids teaches them it's ok to hit and be hit. Do you have girls? How'd you feel if when there older there spouse smacks them? After all if daddy's smacked them then it must be ok!?

BadgeIsBack

It's not great and it's a rarity.
But this whole thing of banning it is ridiculous - make no mistake - I am otherwise a great Liberal.

We are talking about little kids here, not adults. I would not expect a man to hit a woman -only a battler would expect that sort of treatment. Of course there are women who like their spouse to be a bit rough which beats me (excuse the pun!)my girls see that their Dad always treats their mother with love and respect - and tenderness - as they also get treated themselves. Their mother is also a very good role model. How a couple treat each other is probably far more instructive than the parent-child relationship - there are probably children who never get smacked yet
their parents are always undermining each other - or showing that their relationship is not perhaps as good as it might be. My son came back from kinder with his report card where he was quoted as saying he was happy because his Mother loved his Father (and vice versa) and that he was so glad they were married - and that his family was great as a result.

As children, they are very emotionally mature and we often get comment from school and creche as to how mature they are.
There is a time and place for everything - if a child gets a slap once a month or so - so be it.

I DO get the fact that some people would never raise a hand to their children - ever. But I think it's academic.

I like tea

I am 65 years old and was never smacked as a child. ( I mention my age because in those days it was the norm). My three children were never smacked and my two grandchildren have never been smacked. Although I have mentioned their behaviour and poor manners I would never advocate smacking as a means of disipline.

To BadgeisBack you are operating on a confusing and double standard. So it's alright for me to hit you but don't you go hitting anyone at school, or as you get older in the wider community as it's called ASSAULT and may involve the police and a court attendance.

Gibbo

I smacked my 4 sons when they did something unacceptable and they to have turn out well adjusted, kind, thoughtful, considerate, caring, intelligent men who would never ever strike a woman or swear in female company. Children have to learn that there are always consequences resulting from their actions - sometimes pleasant, sometimes not so pleasant. If a child knows what to expect they will learn to do or not to do that thing again. I do not think a child should be smacked anywhere. I reckon bottom or leg is fine.
Also what works for one won't necessarily work for another, so you have to tailor discipline to the individual.

spouse of scouse

I don't understand what you mean when you say that parents have few resources to interest their children?

In any event I think this thread's got off-track by talking about hitting kids. The OP wasn't advocating this, she was talking about her grandchildren's behaviour. At 56 I'd probably be in the 'older generation you talk about - teaching your kids what is and isn't acceptable behaviour had nothing to do with hitting them and everything to do with helping them to realise that actions have consequences - whether this be removing play privileges, an earlier bedtime or a raft of other things appropriate to the age and the behaviour.

There's a huge difference between allowing your kids to develop within a loving and flexible structure and letting them do whatever takes their fancy at any given time with no thought or understanding of the consequences.

BadgeIsBack

Noone said we should beat our kids. I certainly smack a lot less than kids got smacked over a generation ago. As for assault:
but of course - for one thing, the age of criminal liability is raised above a certain age for a reason. Children are not adults. If they were not children then we would not need 18 years of mentoring. As an aside, I see boys at school who hit in play - even if their parents are fully-paid up hippies. (I use the word both flippantly and non-flippantly: as a matter of fact the most violent little boy I know has very 'right on' parents.) They are boys and they are different to girls.

Agreed - moreorless - and I have smacked in very specific circumstances which are too family-specific to go into detail here - around the way a child has behaved to another. It invariably was around a phase with one child effecting another. The point is that adults can reason to a point - whereas a child can't. I am not proud of it - (nor do I feel I need to defend it) but as a matter of fact it is a rarity and you can count on the fingers of two hands the no of times I have done it in 8 years. As the child ages it is not necessary - and time will show that it was in a short period of time. In other generations, I suspect it was over a far longer period.

I would much rather see how the parents interact with each other, and what is said and done in the home, than how many times they smacked a child.

BadgeIsBack

Some families seem to operate in very limited environment (of rules, stimuli, opportunity, et cetera, expectations) and the children seem to have less 'going' for them as a result. I imagine there are homes where there is too much discipline and structure, or not much of a mix, and others where there is too little - leaving aside the physical - as you say. I've seen homes where there has been too much regulation of one sort which tells me that as always, balance is key.

There have been whole sociological/anthropological studies that have been done on this but that is probably getting a bit too academic-centric.

The subject might well polarise opinion. (I've now probably polarised myself towards the 'corporal punishment' side as I have admitted to smacking my children - and there is no question that it is increasingly taboo. If legislation was ever passed then I would have to no option but to take a good look at my actions but I suspect that we would have moved on by then - there is of course the moral implication I have to question myself with).

Buzzy--Bee

It has been for a few years now in New Zealand - a country which has one of the highest rates of child abuse in the western world.

BB