IT employment market UK vs Aus
Jul 23rd 2012, 5:40 am
#61
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Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Perth.
Posts: 425
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
Guys posting here about Asian way of English communication still lives in 70's, I believe. Indian basic english education foundation was built by british in India. So I can say that we have good english speaking people rather than most other parts of the world. And you see in the world how many top ranking CEO's and VP's are of Indian origin.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
But your reply is exactly what I think they were saying.
Yes - it's perfectly reasonable English (it's a damn sight better English than my Indian, that's for sure).
But it flags you as not being a native, and a lot of people here have been bitten by the outsourcing of IT to India, and by local Indians who were not up to the job and not getting the results. People are overly cautious now and it's a massive hinderance to Indian IT workers.
Jul 23rd 2012, 6:02 am
#62
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Joined: Sep 2004
Location: London - but only until I can afford to move back to Sydney
Posts: 938
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
Guys posting here about Asian way of English communication still lives in 70's, I believe. Indian basic english education foundation was built by british in India. So I can say that we have good english speaking people rather than most other parts of the world. And you see in the world how many top ranking CEO's and VP's are of Indian origin.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
Jul 23rd 2012, 7:58 am
#63
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 130
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
I'm Asian and have an accent myself but I completely agree with how much role it plays on getting a job.
Obviously some have thicker accent than others within the SAME community, so no one can really single out an ethic group. If your thick accent comes in the way of you being able to communicate effectively then ofcourse you have slimmer chances.
Also, if you're migrant in a community, it would be just fair for you to exert effort to adjust so the locals can understand you better. You don't move to a country and ask them to try to understand you, do you?
Obviously some have thicker accent than others within the SAME community, so no one can really single out an ethic group. If your thick accent comes in the way of you being able to communicate effectively then ofcourse you have slimmer chances.
Also, if you're migrant in a community, it would be just fair for you to exert effort to adjust so the locals can understand you better. You don't move to a country and ask them to try to understand you, do you?
Jul 23rd 2012, 11:29 am
#64
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,555
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
White Australian people who cannot communicate well also do badly in job interviews. If the job requires communication expect to be judged on communication.
I have worked with many Asian with English far better than my compatriotes so you are up against steep competition.
I have worked with many Asian with English far better than my compatriotes so you are up against steep competition.
Guys posting here about Asian way of English communication still lives in 70's, I believe. Indian basic english education foundation was built by british in India. So I can say that we have good english speaking people rather than most other parts of the world. And you see in the world how many top ranking CEO's and VP's are of Indian origin.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
And one of the UK Billionaire is a Indian who cannot speak english, that does not deprive him of his success.
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
If you watch US cinemas or shows they make fun of UK and other European accents of english. Does that make US accent a superior one...
Communication is to make people understand what you wanted to say, that is it. Why western people put so much sarcastic remarks against Asian english speaking. I spent almost a decade in Europe and USA. And now in USA you can manage and survive if you know spanish alone and not the other way. So after 10 years, spanish language will be widely used in USA. So what will people do just sticking to english and criticizing other people's accent.
When I was training people in USA on a software, they complained to my boss that they cannot understand my accent. I asked my boss, "I can understand your accent and other people accent here, but why they cannot understand
my accent". Because I am from a third world country, so I put effort and concentration to understand the US accent, but since you guys are from developed country, you do not want to put that effort and concentration to understand my accent. He accepted that and sat in training with me and found no issues with my accent.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
Jul 23rd 2012, 12:45 pm
#65
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
Having pinged pommed between AU and GB I do find my work accent changes to suit where I am so I can be understood.
Saw a documentry on Usain Bolt. When he was speaking with his mates they needed subtitles. When he spoke to the media it was all crystal clear.
Adapting an accent is certainly a worthwhile skill.
Saw a documentry on Usain Bolt. When he was speaking with his mates they needed subtitles. When he spoke to the media it was all crystal clear.
Adapting an accent is certainly a worthwhile skill.
Jul 23rd 2012, 5:24 pm
#66
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Epsom
Posts: 1,705
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
So knowing english in its pure sense does not guarantee success in life. And for working in professions other than English teacher, a decent english should be enough.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
I am not here to criticize any one but give the Asians a break here, we may not have english talent like William Shakespeare, but we have the necessary english language skills to live in a western country.
Quite simply when you are being paid $150k+ and being charged out to clients at $1800+ per day, your English needs to be almost perfect, especially if you are in any sort of client facing role and/or communicating with senior management.
Jul 23rd 2012, 7:07 pm
#67
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 29
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
Well I , would agree that having good english skillz is definitely not the sole factor in getting a position , i know, i've tried .
Jul 24th 2012, 5:27 am
#68
Extended Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 486
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
It's all about communicating effectively. Some people are better at it than others. Toastmasters (District 70) is great for improving skills in this area. [end of plug] Putting it down purely to race is a lazy excuse and not the full picture.
Anyway, back to the original point, as pointed out by the earlier replies, a "2 speed economy" appears to have developed in IT in relation to permanent salaries for experienced developers:
Offer 60-70k = wallow in the mire
Offer 90-110k = you may have some chance
Anyway, back to the original point, as pointed out by the earlier replies, a "2 speed economy" appears to have developed in IT in relation to permanent salaries for experienced developers:
Offer 60-70k = wallow in the mire
Offer 90-110k = you may have some chance
Jul 24th 2012, 6:57 am
#69
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Joined: Sep 2004
Location: London - but only until I can afford to move back to Sydney
Posts: 938
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
You do have to know what you are doing. For example I hear a lot about how difficult things are here in London but the reality of what I have seen is that there has been a shake out and those that are not that good have lost their jobs and can't get new ones those that are good can pick and choose. I am in the group that gets to pick and choose. It's the same in Sydney from what my friends are telling me.
Jul 24th 2012, 7:00 am
#70
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: London - but only until I can afford to move back to Sydney
Posts: 938
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
It's all about communicating effectively. Some people are better at it than others. Toastmasters (District 70) is great for improving skills in this area. [end of plug] Putting it down purely to race is a lazy excuse and not the full picture.
Anyway, back to the original point, as pointed out by the earlier replies, a "2 speed economy" appears to have developed in IT in relation to permanent salaries for experienced developers:
Offer 60-70k = wallow in the mire
Offer 90-110k = you may have some chance
Anyway, back to the original point, as pointed out by the earlier replies, a "2 speed economy" appears to have developed in IT in relation to permanent salaries for experienced developers:
Offer 60-70k = wallow in the mire
Offer 90-110k = you may have some chance
Jul 25th 2012, 10:31 am
#71
mmmmmm duff
Joined: May 2006
Location: Maudsland, Gold Coast, QLD
Posts: 1,629
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
Who the hell moves to Sydney to just Survive? You'd have to be an idiot to move half way round the world to "Survive"
I earned more than that permanent in Sydney a couple of years ago so as a contract it's a crap rate. As a contractor in Sydney I would expect to get about $1000 per day certainly that's what they were paying a couple of years ago where I used to work. Frankly even that's not great when you take cost of living into account and the other alternatives on offer.
I've said it before and I'll say it again Sydney is a crap place to be in IT due to low salaries. Great place to live though if you can afford it.
I earned more than that permanent in Sydney a couple of years ago so as a contract it's a crap rate. As a contractor in Sydney I would expect to get about $1000 per day certainly that's what they were paying a couple of years ago where I used to work. Frankly even that's not great when you take cost of living into account and the other alternatives on offer.
I've said it before and I'll say it again Sydney is a crap place to be in IT due to low salaries. Great place to live though if you can afford it.
Jul 25th 2012, 10:40 am
#72
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,555
Re: IT employment market UK vs Aus
One of our clients has just cut their IT dept in half. An ASX50 company.
