Employment contract
 

Hey guys,

When negotating a contract of employment on a 457 visa what are the key points to negotiate to make sure my job is as secure as it can possibly be?

Re: Employment contract
 

Hi there,

I would like to know the answer to this question too! I am currently job hunting and also have a 457 Visa.....

Re: Employment contract
 

Well the job that I am going for provides sponsorship but I am looking for job security

Re: Employment contract
 

Are you put on a probation period? That can be a problem for getting credit on a car etc. Plus they could let you go during that time..

Other than that its the same as any other job, you cant make them keep you.

Also, the 457 is temporary, they may not intend on keeping you for the full 4 years..

Re: Employment contract
 

You are not going to be able to negotiate job security!

Maybe you should think about negotiating the best possible deal if you do lose your job (through no fault of your own), like business class flights home for the whole family and paid shipping.

Re: Employment contract
 

Well after 2 years I would be applying for pr anyway so doesn't matter whether they would keep me the full four.

The job I currently hold in the uk is as secure you could possibly imagine. No risk of being let go and if there was there is a long process and a lot of expense and red tape to get through just to be even close to being rid of anybody within my company. I suppose I'm looking for the same security. Even if the contract I had had a minimum term on it.

What's Australian law like in regards to this because anybody I know in the uk can't just be told that they are being let go out of the blue. Surely if that hppened it would be a case for unfair dismissal

Re: Employment contract
 

Hmmmm... It doesn't quite work that way on a 457 visa.

If the company decide to get rid of you, then you have almost zero comeback, especially when you consider that you only have 28 days to get out of the country if they terminate your employment.

Re: Employment contract
 

Do you qualify for a visa in your own right now? If you do, then you might want to go for that, rather than a 457.

This '2 year' thing seems to have lots of people confused, including employers. If you spend two years on a 457 then your employer can sponsor you for PR, without you having to pass any required skills assesment... and that's about the only thing the '2 years' gives you.
Your employer could apply to have you changed to PR as soon as you arrive... but almost none do, probably because by keeping you on a 457 it means you are tied to the company.

Re: Employment contract
 

I don't think job security and Australia go hand in hand.

Re: Employment contract
 

Thanks for the response guys. This has made me a little nervous now. I have my second interview on Tuesday morning and I am almost certain I am going to get an offer (fingers crossed). I was sure if I was offered the package I want I would up sticks and go but now I'm not so sure. I need at least 2 years under my belt so I am not giving up a good job here and end up not gaining much more experience.

Re: Employment contract
 

The 457 visa works for many, me included, but it is a 'temporary visa' and it does come with the risk, of you being effectively kicked out of the country, if it all goes bad.

Re: Employment contract
 

If you are referring to the persistent myth that after two years on a 457 visa you can apply for a "PR status" type of thing, then know that it is just that, a myth.

If you mean that the employer has agreed to sponsor you for a permanent visa after two years and your job is eligible for permanent employer sponsored visa then fair enough. Although the job would still need to be there with an expectation for a further three years, so you can't say it doesn't matter whether they would keep you on.


Redundancy. It is quite legal.

Re: Employment contract
 

I didn't realise that mate. That's what the foul is all about gaining more knowledge from knowledgable people.

The company did say in the first interview they sponsor after 2 years a pr visa. I didn't realise that ther was a further fixed term on that and I didn't realise I could not just apply for it myself after 2 years. Thanks.

I'm not sure what to do now. I will have a list of questions for Tuesday and try and get some piece of mind to hopefully make me more at ease. I will try and find out how many people have been let to in the last five years etc just so I know generally what sort of security I would have. I obviously cant account for future situations but it's a start.

Re: Employment contract
 

To sponsor for the permanent employer sponsored visa, the employer has to have an expectation that the role will be there for another three years and you have to have the expectation that you will remain there for another three years. It is not binding, but a decent employer won't want to fall foul of immigration, so they will not sponsor for this visa if they think the role will only be there for another 12 months say.

There is nothing in particular you can do after two years unilaterally. Of course you could apply for a skilled migrant visa, but you could do that now if you qualify.

Re: Employment contract
 

Surely regardless of Jobs, emigrating to Australia means temporarily at least you are giving up security on many different levels.

Jeremy Clarkson said something along the lines of why would anyone with a great job, house, friends etc etc wake up one day and decide to live in an insular country on the other side of the world

Re: Employment contract
 

Sorry but bullshit. I've been made redundant four times in the UK. If the company has to cut back on staff or go under, they can get rid of you, no matter what.

In this current economic climate, no one's job can ever be described as rock solid.

Re: Employment contract
 

I'm afraid securityisnt going to happen its basically for short term positions. If it makes you feel better there isn't much security in permanent positions either.

Re: Employment contract
 

Sorry to hear that but the job I am in is rock solid. Unless I break the law in some sort of way or punch my boss in the face I would have it for life.

How long have you lived in oz and how secure have your jobs been? Many times you been let go in oz?

That can be a question for everyone. Many times have all of you been let go while working in oz?

Re: Employment contract
 

I work for Queensland Govt, which has had many many years of a culture where a lot of staff were on temporary contracts. i know people who have been on frequently renewed contracts for upwards of 10 years. Many of these are frontline government jobs and because of that the postholders have been certain they had a job for life. A couple of months ago a change of government, and a Premier with an anti-public service attitude.
I have friends who have been loyal and hardworking employees for donkeys years, who have mortgages, families, loans etc all based around a steady government salary, but for various reasons their job titles include the word "temporary" or "contract". All out of work at 2 weeks notice. Simple as that, no recourse, jobs gone.
Others returned to their substantive roles - so overnight their income plunged from Senior Manager to Admin Officer.
Even people taken on to implement changes under the Flood Commission in case of (god forbid) more events like last summer, are now out of a job. That work is now all on the back-burner, so lets pray for a few dry seasons.

Australia has a very different attitude to employment, and job security is not one of its priorities.

Re: Employment contract
 

Don't apologise, I don't think any of them were down to you, it's just how it is for the vast majority of people whatever country they're in.

Here, one job and been let go once. Husband four jobs, let go twice.

Re: Employment contract
 

Has it been difficult with finding another job after being let go? Has oz been a good or bad experience for you?

Re: Employment contract
 

I would have thought a government job would be more secure as well. The company I am going for is quite small with 80 plus employees so am a little cautious as they aren't a global super power or that.

It's a big decision to make, I am not looking at first to move to oz for the rest of my life but I want the experience and practice what I do here in the uk at least for 2 years for it to be a success.

I know a lot of people are forced abroad for work family etc but I am a 26 year old civil engineer. Live with parents here (no house to get rid of) no kids. Have a good job and no debt keeping me here. I want to experience oz before I am tied down to something.

Re: Employment contract
 

Well it was last August and I've still not found anything. Plenty of thanks but no thanks and just as many 'nothings'. We love it here, the last three years have been non stop major medical problems for all of us, plenty of work crap, a total lack of money, but none of it is down to Aus, shit happens.

Re: Employment contract
 

I wouldn't sweat that too much - global superpowers are usually way more ruthless than small companies - if you fit into a small company the owner/directors know all the staff and are usually reluctant to ditch people unless there's no alternative - in global firms they cull with impunity and have very little consideration for how it affects the people on the ground - only their bottom line.

(this is obviously only my opinion based on my working life but I'd be really surprised if people found the opposite other than the occasional exception to prove the rule- whatever that means!)

Re: Employment contract
 

I used to work for the department of communities in Brisbane and left about 8 months ago. I have friends who have all lost their jobs with contracts not being renewed and people who have been downgraded to junior level after being in roles for years.

Grown mature, people crying at the thought of having no work and having to then look into a flooded market and chasing anything they can get, its a cruel world and an ineffective government with blinkers on have created this monstrosity. No role over here is permanent, I am an IT contractor so take the rough with the smooth, but for some people, longevity is the key to existence.

In summary, and I started on a 457, try and do a good job, word gets around as Brisbane is a small place and networking is key. Keep your nose clean, work harder than the australians and dont expect to be given anything for free. I found you have to work a lot harder over here than the UK to prove yourself and build the relationships needed to be successful further down the track.

Good luck :fingerscrossed:

PS I hate the commute from the Goldy to Brisbane on the Bombay Express :-)

Re: Employment contract
 

Thanks for all the information and advice you have provided.

I'm reading all these comments over and it seems to be horror story after horror story, why the hell would anyone want to go live in Australia. Can anyone answer that?

All I am getting from this thread is you get no security, have to try and get anything you can in a flooded market, work harder than you would in the uk just to hold onto your job then unfortunately you get the grown men and woman in tears.

Is it worth it? From this thread it doesn't seem so. Why put yourself through all that for what? The lifestyle, weather? Doesn't seem like you would have a life if you where working your ass off just to hold a job down not knowing when they are going to tell you to bugger off and find somewhere else.

I have done a lot of research and this is the first I have came across this response and I am sorry all you people have had to go through these situations.

Re: Employment contract
 

I love it here, I loved it there. Shit happens everywhere you just make the best of it wherever you are. Just because we're having a totally crap time physically and financially doesn't make us think it's Australia, it must be a crap place, we'd better get out. We just find a positive spin and get on with it. If you cut and ran every time something went pearshaped, you wouldn't sit still for more than a fortnight.

Re: Employment contract
 

So can you tell me what the good points of living in Australia are?

Re: Employment contract
 

Going snorkeling before or after work, weekends feeling like holidays, the weather, friendly people, walking to work over the harbourside bridge every day, etc etc etc.

I'm back in London now though.

Re: Employment contract
 

Hi Paddy I dont mean to be the harbinger of doom, Australia is the best decision I ever made. I am just making you are aware that its not an easy transition, there are lots of stresses apart from just working that people need to be aware of.

Lots of people are going back because of these stresses. Sunshine isnt just the answer but Australia can offer you a bloody fantastic lifestyle. I almost live on the water, have a new car, 2 year contract with a massive company, jet ski at weekends, have a beautiful black lab and a wonderful wife who I met after emmigrating with someone else. Life is what you make it, I would rather not work but I have to.

I earn a huge salary and I am very lucky to do so, but that comes at a price, I leave for work at 6am and get back at 7pm, in the dark, have dinner then go to bed in the week. Live for the weekends, but at least its no where near as cold in the winter so you can still do stuff without freezing your nads off.

I got diagnosed with a chronic illness over here (sarcoidosis) and have to deal with that and everythign else but as moneypenny says, everyone has shit to get through.

Dont make your decision based solely on this board, we are not you and I emmigrated without ever being here before, hate spiders, love the weather and I am never going back.

Sean :thumbsup:

Re: Employment contract
 

Hi sean,

Thanks for your reply. I get that wherever you go you will get a certain amount of shit but I appreciate you sharing what you get apart from the shit and this sound good. I think I would love all that :)

I have my interview at 10am uk time and then I will know if I get an offer. It's in Perth the job is. It's not something I am desperate to do so can negotiate a little as my life here is far from bad. I just need to have the experience of the lifestyle that you describe. I'm only 26 so want to do this before I get on a bit :)

What sort of visa were you on and what should I negotiate into the deal should I get an offer. Any advice would be appreciated mate

Re: Employment contract
 

At the moment I'm finding it hard to find good points in living to be honest but it's not forever, things will get better. Just seen that you're 26. That more than anything explains some of the stuff you've posted. That wasn't meant in a patronising way, it's just a 26 year old has a completely different mindset and expectation of life than someone nearly twice that.

Australia is no different from the UK in most ways. You work, you earn something, you pay bills, you sleep, you shop, you have fun, you have crap happen. For me personally, the temperature/climate for the greater part of the year suits my body far better than the temp/climate in the UK. To be able to live close to the ocean and mountains gives me a thrill even now. The people around me are lovely etc etc. However from a personal viewpoint, apart from the climate and locality, there is absolutely no difference to my life here from my life there.

You will never (fairly certain of this) find another job with the security you have now, unless you move departments in the place where you are now. Not going to happen. If job security is your main priority, and your life is pretty damn good now, stay put. Do not move. However, at 26 the world is your oyster. If you want to explore, have an adventure, see something of the world then go for it. Just don't expect much difference, unless you make it different.

If I was 26, footloose and fancy free, I'd see about getting a years sabbatical from my 'for life' job and travel, get a WHV and have fun. See what's out there and if any of it suits me. Then I'd either go back to my 'for life' job or I'd quit and do something else.

Re: Employment contract
 

Thanks for sharing your experience. Your are probably right that my outlook is totally different for someone like yourself.

I have looked into gaining the sabbatical and this might be possible but the way I see it is of I get at least 2 years under my belt this would look great on my cv so even after that 2 years is up the worst that could happen would be that we come home and I'm sure the company I'm with just now would desire the experience I have gained in addition to the experience I have now as a senior person with my department.

Once I get a concrete offer I'll talk to my bosses boss who was like my mentor growing up and get some advice from him And hopefully he could pull a few strings for me in regards to a sabbatical or at least be invited to apply internally when I got back.

Re: Employment contract
 

Hi Paddy

I came over on a 457 through my then spouse who was a psychologist, after 8 months we applied for PR through an 856 visa and were granted it, after about 6 weeks. Fully intend to go for citizenship after the 4 years. Married to an aussie now and fully enjoying aussie lifestyle. Even if it is a little cold now.

What line of work are you in?

Sean

Re: Employment contract
 

How long have you been in oz? Sounds good.

I am a civil engineer with a railway background. What do you do yourself?

Re: Employment contract
 

I work in IT for Ernst and Young at the moment in the Coal Seam Gas sector.

3 years next month and wouldnt change it.

At 26 you might as well as its not as final a decision as it is for some.

Re: Employment contract
 

Exactly mate. If I don't do it I'll always look back and wonder what if? What's the worst that can happen if I take the chance.

Re: Employment contract
 

Who do you work for in Railways with your guaranteed job security?

Re: Employment contract
 

with all due respect clarkson is a complete tit.. there's plenty of peoplein oz that are glad he thinksthat way...te he

in all seriousness; you cannot spend your days worrying about losing a job you have.or nearly have. you can make your self as useful as possible and the rest is out of your hands.just make sure you meet your boss prior to day one - there's lots of david brents out there waiting for you :) once you are in oz (or where ever it is that you decide to settle) then you can research other companies and get yourself a contingency plan... good luck