Don Brash: do his plans for 'One NZ' stand up to scrutiny?
Feb 7th 2004, 12:38 pm
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,613
Don Brash: do his plans for 'One NZ' stand up to scrutiny?
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_det...36-1-8,00.html
From what I can see, a lot or most of what Brash is proposing stands up to intellectual scrutiny and can hardly be called racist - rather, the opposite.
He's getting high approval ratings in the polls too, for what he is suggesting.
Maybe a way to find more than a chink in Labour's armour?
From what I can see, a lot or most of what Brash is proposing stands up to intellectual scrutiny and can hardly be called racist - rather, the opposite.
He's getting high approval ratings in the polls too, for what he is suggesting.
Maybe a way to find more than a chink in Labour's armour?
Feb 7th 2004, 4:05 pm
#2
Just Joined
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Nelson, NZ
Posts: 18
You are 100% right - it stands up to scrutiny and then some.
Don Brash has said what many NZ-ers think but we have all been afraid to say. Undoubtedly the Maori had a raw deal when the Europeans arrived and were frankly conned out of much of "their" land, but let us not forget that they themselves took it from the previous inhabitiants. It was a long time ago. We have moved on. Life has changed.
The culture of apology which continues to pervade NZ politics IS creating a racially divided society. To condone 2 classes of treatment based on race justifies the recognition of 2 classes based on whatever you might choose. I believe that in many wys we woudl be better off under the existing government that to revert to a National leadership (frankly, Mr Brash is the only outstanding talent, but then again, Ms Clark occupies the same positon in her own party), but they must get over this pandering to the "rights" of Maori New Zealanders. The only way the country can move forward is if we all become New Zealanders first.
So if there is no radical change in labour party policy ( and I admit they are beginnihng to be a little more realistic), you cna guess which way my vote will be going in the next election.
Don Brash has said what many NZ-ers think but we have all been afraid to say. Undoubtedly the Maori had a raw deal when the Europeans arrived and were frankly conned out of much of "their" land, but let us not forget that they themselves took it from the previous inhabitiants. It was a long time ago. We have moved on. Life has changed.
The culture of apology which continues to pervade NZ politics IS creating a racially divided society. To condone 2 classes of treatment based on race justifies the recognition of 2 classes based on whatever you might choose. I believe that in many wys we woudl be better off under the existing government that to revert to a National leadership (frankly, Mr Brash is the only outstanding talent, but then again, Ms Clark occupies the same positon in her own party), but they must get over this pandering to the "rights" of Maori New Zealanders. The only way the country can move forward is if we all become New Zealanders first.
So if there is no radical change in labour party policy ( and I admit they are beginnihng to be a little more realistic), you cna guess which way my vote will be going in the next election.
Feb 7th 2004, 4:56 pm
#3
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cental north island NZ
Posts: 198
But Brash is still only on 16% or so as preferred prime minister. Clark is still on about 35%. Peters is also on about 16%.
My prediction - Labour will get in again. Most maori will vote for clark. Most unemployed , immigrants?, refugees, retired? will vote labour. They have a start of about 30% of the vote to begin with.
Labour is poisoning this country. they take from those who work hard and give to those who dont and to those who can con money out of them like the treaty lawyers do. There might be some consolation if you saw something in return but our schools, health system ,legal system ad nauseum is stuffed. Labour is spending $200,000 on legal process to defend an illegal immigrant who disposed of his passport on the plane over here and has possible terrorist connections while little old ladies who have faithfully paid their taxes for half a century have to wait for hip/knee operations so they can walk.
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
My prediction - Labour will get in again. Most maori will vote for clark. Most unemployed , immigrants?, refugees, retired? will vote labour. They have a start of about 30% of the vote to begin with.
Labour is poisoning this country. they take from those who work hard and give to those who dont and to those who can con money out of them like the treaty lawyers do. There might be some consolation if you saw something in return but our schools, health system ,legal system ad nauseum is stuffed. Labour is spending $200,000 on legal process to defend an illegal immigrant who disposed of his passport on the plane over here and has possible terrorist connections while little old ladies who have faithfully paid their taxes for half a century have to wait for hip/knee operations so they can walk.
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
Feb 7th 2004, 9:13 pm
#4
NZ or Bust!
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Twickenham
Posts: 132
The Maori took the land from that race, the Maoriori.
This is a statement that has had much scrutiny over the last 30+ years.
The consensus seems to be that there never was such a race.
The maoriori appears to have been a construct not a reaity.
It has been suggested that by the pakeha creating such a pre-race it "justified" their treatment of the maori. A kind of " were only doing to them as they did to others"
A nice bit of ethic in there somewhere?
This is a statement that has had much scrutiny over the last 30+ years.
The consensus seems to be that there never was such a race.
The maoriori appears to have been a construct not a reaity.
It has been suggested that by the pakeha creating such a pre-race it "justified" their treatment of the maori. A kind of " were only doing to them as they did to others"
A nice bit of ethic in there somewhere?
Last edited by Sazzle; Feb 7th 2004 at 9:16 pm.
Feb 7th 2004, 10:43 pm
#5
(Jon) returning to NZ 04
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 816
goodness me graham, after listening to your 'labour is poisoning the country' rant again, I read the rest of your post, and I am very suprised. I actually agree with you (the second part of your post anyway). that has to be a first.
As you say it is a very complex issue, and I don't think there is any easy answer. As much as would like Don brash's vision of utopia to be achievable, I really don't think it is. He is doing nothing more that vote-catching, and I guarantee these promises will not only be broken, but they will not even see the light of day and be quickly forgotten by Mr Brash should he win.
It smacks of desperation to me, and while he articulates what many are thinking, I just don't think it will work.
Fact is we're not all the same. NZ is made up of many many different people, belief systems, religions, cultures, and age groups. To accomodate all these differences you have to compromise and 'give and take' - sometimes Maori could 'give' a bit more, but then so could Pakeha.
Unless we want a world by white middle aged men for white middle aged men, then at times positive discrimination is required. Otherwise I fear you get the reverse - negative discrimination.
As you say it is a very complex issue, and I don't think there is any easy answer. As much as would like Don brash's vision of utopia to be achievable, I really don't think it is. He is doing nothing more that vote-catching, and I guarantee these promises will not only be broken, but they will not even see the light of day and be quickly forgotten by Mr Brash should he win.
It smacks of desperation to me, and while he articulates what many are thinking, I just don't think it will work.
Fact is we're not all the same. NZ is made up of many many different people, belief systems, religions, cultures, and age groups. To accomodate all these differences you have to compromise and 'give and take' - sometimes Maori could 'give' a bit more, but then so could Pakeha.
Unless we want a world by white middle aged men for white middle aged men, then at times positive discrimination is required. Otherwise I fear you get the reverse - negative discrimination.
Originally posted by glhall
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
Last edited by jandjuk; Feb 7th 2004 at 10:47 pm.
Feb 8th 2004, 11:16 am
#6
Here in Dunedin
Joined: May 2003
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 1,975
Brash has been showing his lack of political experience by making some statements that are poorly researched and almost unaminously condemned by historians and other commentators.
eg. he stated that maori were able to take unlimited leave for attending tangis (their version of funerals), and this was racist.
In fact, the whole legal profession agrees the particular act has no special allowances for maori (it doesn't even mention them).
However, Brash is a bright fellow, and knows that his message appeals to a small part of the electorate who may well swing their votes to him. But I can't see the middle ground moving, and the result in the next election looks pretty obvious.
eg. he stated that maori were able to take unlimited leave for attending tangis (their version of funerals), and this was racist.
In fact, the whole legal profession agrees the particular act has no special allowances for maori (it doesn't even mention them).
However, Brash is a bright fellow, and knows that his message appeals to a small part of the electorate who may well swing their votes to him. But I can't see the middle ground moving, and the result in the next election looks pretty obvious.
Feb 8th 2004, 10:16 pm
#7
(Jon) returning to NZ 04
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 816
to me it's a bit like Blair or Howard saying to the Scots:
"well come on guys. The history is in the past. We're all British - we shouldn't be worried about everything that's gone before. Let's all just get on - it really doesn't look good for you to have your own Scottish parliament and stuff. Be better for us to be one people wouldn't it? And be better for everyone if you run your affairs our way, not yours. "
No one can disagree with parts of that (eg getting on with each other), but would the Scottish stand for it? No. Will the Maori? I don't think so...
(very different situation I know, but there are some similarities...)
"well come on guys. The history is in the past. We're all British - we shouldn't be worried about everything that's gone before. Let's all just get on - it really doesn't look good for you to have your own Scottish parliament and stuff. Be better for us to be one people wouldn't it? And be better for everyone if you run your affairs our way, not yours. "
No one can disagree with parts of that (eg getting on with each other), but would the Scottish stand for it? No. Will the Maori? I don't think so...
(very different situation I know, but there are some similarities...)
Feb 9th 2004, 5:29 am
#8
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Auckland for now
Posts: 70
Originally posted by glhall
But Brash is still only on 16% or so as preferred prime minister. Clark is still on about 35%. Peters is also on about 16%.
My prediction - Labour will get in again. Most maori will vote for clark. Most unemployed , immigrants?, refugees, retired? will vote labour. They have a start of about 30% of the vote to begin with.
Labour is poisoning this country. they take from those who work hard and give to those who dont and to those who can con money out of them like the treaty lawyers do. There might be some consolation if you saw something in return but our schools, health system ,legal system ad nauseum is stuffed. Labour is spending $200,000 on legal process to defend an illegal immigrant who disposed of his passport on the plane over here and has possible terrorist connections while little old ladies who have faithfully paid their taxes for half a century have to wait for hip/knee operations so they can walk.
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
But Brash is still only on 16% or so as preferred prime minister. Clark is still on about 35%. Peters is also on about 16%.
My prediction - Labour will get in again. Most maori will vote for clark. Most unemployed , immigrants?, refugees, retired? will vote labour. They have a start of about 30% of the vote to begin with.
Labour is poisoning this country. they take from those who work hard and give to those who dont and to those who can con money out of them like the treaty lawyers do. There might be some consolation if you saw something in return but our schools, health system ,legal system ad nauseum is stuffed. Labour is spending $200,000 on legal process to defend an illegal immigrant who disposed of his passport on the plane over here and has possible terrorist connections while little old ladies who have faithfully paid their taxes for half a century have to wait for hip/knee operations so they can walk.
The situation with Maori is not simple. Most of them are in the lowest socio economic class and many live in relative poverty or supplement their meagre incomes with illegal activities to get by. About 75% of the jails are filled with Maori and pacific islanders - i used to visit there - its an eye opener! Presently Labour is trying to give them a helping hand up by trying to get more of them better educated, more healthy, reduce crime, getting them off welfare, etc. They do this by allocating extra funding to Maori organisations that supposedly are set up to do this - funding that Pakeha cant get. Brash seems to be indicationg a stop to that funding, removal of the helping hand - theyre down so leave them down. Thats what has got them riled.
I dont think the hand up should be removed - Do You? - I think the whole system of how and to whom the money is allocated needs to be revisited. theres too much waste and corruption in the way the funds are currently used. If you leave them continually at the bottom of the heap there will be trouble eventually.
As I said its not simple.
Graham
