spouse of scouse

xizzles, you're doing a lot of moaning about a lot of things - losing 80% of your income, your (200kg) 'wifey' being on your back, and some other rather strange comments about 'toilet-bowl squatters' On the other hand, you say that just about everyone you care about is in Australia.

I think you're making this decision harder than it needs to be, and you're running around in ever decreasing circles - so much so that you're in grave danger of disappearing up your own bum.

I'll give you a hand. Sit down somewhere quiet, think about what's more important to you - all the people you care about, including your wife, or chasing the almighty dollar. Then think about where YOU want to live. Then discuss it with your wife - if you don't want to move to Australia, and she does, then you'll have to find some sort of compromise or split up.

Just some food for thought, which of course you are free to take or leave

xizzles

Thanks for the straight talking, spouse of scouse - and for the handy tip on meditating .

I suppose I should qualify that "just about everyone I care about is in Australia" bit. I meant the only remaining relative I have left is in Australia, but I'm certainly not going to make it sound like I'll be packing it up & going just because I want to be near him - it's unfair to him, and it's certainly not something he's asking to happen.

Ultimately, that's it, isn't it - is x number of dollars a year worth more than my wife's happiness and all the sunshine I can get for free? Lemme mull on that - the trouble is, I'm not making THAT much money that I can say I could afford to retire anyplace at anytime, and the money that I AM making at present is substantial enough (at least to me) for me to feel the pain of losing it.

I'm probably so up my own arse I could see sunlight coming from my own throat ... sigh.

Beoz

Here's a way of making some money. Sell one of those Sydney properties. Even if you bought it last week, you stand to make a nice little killing.

Or hang on to them, and potentially make some more, or make a great loss when the market craps itself.

astera

Hi Xizzles, I agree that Singapore is an expat’s dream. In fact all the negative sides I could think of have nothing to do with us, so I’m fine with just letting the “gahmen" propaganda fly with regards to how low corrupt it is, how the school system is light years ahead of the rest of the world, etc..

As you mentioned it’s clean and civilised (mostly) and treats “foreign talent” well, though at the same time it does a wonderful job at entertaining the local public with its adamant approach of how it's making things tougher for foreigners (much to the applause of those who love such rhetoric).

Been there, done that. I also run my own company there and do something very similar to yourself (albeit maybe/probably in a different industry). Love how dividends can be paid out tax-free, which actually makes sense since they have already been taxed at the corporate level.

That's true, though I don't feel so good about the fact that Singapore - much like Dubai or Qatar - is moving ahead mainly due to human exploitation and economic slavery. As mentioned this is one of those things that doesn't affect us, but it makes me think much less of Singapore as a nation.

Whoa, this does not sound good. At all. If I were you I would look at how you can give Australia a try but at the same time continue to do what you have been doing without letting the move affect your work. Is that at all possible? You mentioned Perth - could you move there and still sustain your current set-up for at least a year or even some months? That would give you the opportunity to give Australia a try without jeopardising your entire business, which you have spent DECADES building.

I would say that this is another reason to keep plugging away at your current business whilst the golden harvest is still in full swing. But even when you hang up your boots, Singapore is a very easy place to live in if you OWN your property. That is always the major cost-inducer to staying in Singapore. Everything else will cost you less than living in other, developed countries (car and booze aside - though there are enough good deals to at least stock up on the latter!). In other words, money goes a loooong way in Singapore.... as long as you are not paying rent.

I love the way that once you master the art of CC spend you can generate ridiculous amounts of air miles, dishing out upgrades to family members left and right. There's no other place like it! The civil service is good overall, but the ministry of education for instance is a shambles. Inefficiency and amateurism is simply covered up with typical "gahmen" propaganda to create the impression that it is all-knowing, always successful and never wrong.

Sure you don't want to trade in that location (Holland) for something at Martin Place or River Gate? The former has an olympic-size swimming pool, whereas the latter has the best pool I have seen in all of Singapore. Can't beat the location being on the river, going out for food and drinks, walks, etc.

Plus you have the best supermarket in Singapore in Liang Court: the only Meidi-Ya in all of Singapore.

Add to that the 24h Fairprice at Killiney Road or the post office on the same street (on the corner of Orchard) where you can order a beer whilst waiting for your ticket number to show up. Only in Singapore!

To be honest living by the river was what got me in good shape. Every trip to Australia though ended with some kgs added to my "balance." In terms of shredding kgs I think the best move is one that is a lot closer. By all means - when you are here - feel free to come knocking on my door with beer + shimps - just let me know beforehand so that I can light up the bbq early.

Beoz

You guys talk like Perth and Gold Coast are just down the road, and in the same thread praise the Singaporean education system ..... so are they still producing robots up there or are the youth getting taught to think outside the box yet?

astera

Yup, schools are still a manufacturing plant, with the end product being obedient and semi-literate.

Running out of school places all over as well. Imagine having an entire ministry of education in charge of just a single city... and they can't even handle that properly. The MoE has failure written all over it. Plus this is the highest paid minister of education in the world I must add, making more money than Barack Obama even...

Beoz

That sounds like a tough gig. Imagine it.

AlliF

Just curious why, if living in Singapore is the dream that you say it is, are you even bothering going through the 'torture' of living in Australia to get citizenship for your wife?
If the place is as awful from your point of view as all that why would you even want to be a citizen...

Beoz

To be near the only relative I think is the answer. Though if that relative is in Melbourne and they want to live in Perth to be closer to Singapore then there's not much point.

xizzles

Hi scotdownunder

For the record, that was astera's personal assessment, with regards to his opinion about Australia. I happen to share his view concerning the "Expat's Paradise" that Singapore happens to be presently, but I'm afraid I may not feel the same way as he does concerning Australia - chiefly because I've not given it a fair go yet. Test of the pudding is in its eating, so they say, eh?

G'day Beoz, ibid. et idem. - my only relative is in Sydney, but if I were to move to Australia, the decision cannot be attributed to him. It wouldn't be fair to him, and it wouldn't have been at his asking. Lest the move fails, or that I find myself miserable Down Under, then, by the same token, it wouldn't be his fault either.

astera

My opinion only applies if you happen to have lived in Singapore or currently live in Singapore (as an expat). It's more of a comparison, not an assessment of Australia that will differ vastly depending on where you came from. Just like with the universe... everything is relative.

Did I really come across as being "tortured" by living here? I was merely making the point that it's a huge step down from the expat life in Singapore. It is considerably difficult to make the change, I will definitely claim that.

I am staying mainly to secure citizenship for my wife because we're currently juggling 3 passports (the kids have all of them) but we do not have a common one across all 4 of us. I do not enjoy living here after residing in so many places from the US to Europe to Singapore and here. It is just a personal opinion though, and the only reason I am being very direct and straight-to-the-point without all the niceties and watering-down is because I have been an Australian citizen from day 1.

xizzles

Hi there, ABCD...... . Those are extremely pertinent questions you've asked me - and really got me thinking hard about the answers. Many thanks for the comments indeed.

Yes, I'm extremely happy in Singapore at the moment. Life has been kind, the money has been good, I've got a healthy mix of expats and locals that I count as good friends. We live in a very small, very cozy "cluster development" - essentially, these are overpriced townhouses or mews with the additional benefits of common facilities like a swimming pool and sauna/gym etc - and, are the only type of "landed developments" that foreigners have a chance of purchasing in Singapore. In this small complex of houses, everybody knows everybody else, and we regularly have dinners at each other's houses. We've even been on short holidays with some of the neighbours. The doors are unlocked, we greet each other by name and there's certainly none of the "anti-foreign talent" rhetoric to be found anywhere within the compound. I even have ample private parking spaces for my only indulgence: my 3 cars (sorry, none of them are JLRs - come to think of it, that's owned by Tata now, isn't it?!)

In all honesty, Singapore's given me everything I could have ever wanted, and I daresay if not for the decision to come over 20 years ago, I'd have Buckley's of being where I am - financially at least - today. In my humble opinion, it's as much if not more, due to the Singapore business environment & its unique tax structures, as opposed to whatever business acumen alone. I mean, there has to be a reason why Singapore enjoys a higher GDP per capita PPP than either the UK or Australia, and almost as much as the 2 countries combined! Credit to be given where due.

That's the clincher isn't it? Given the above scenario, you'd think I'd be happy forever - but, most of my expat friends will leave after 4 years or so, and we'll have to make new friends all over again, and the cycle repeats itself ever so often - and that's quite tiring mentally as well as physically. Also, I can't expect to keep raking it in, year after year, and when the pipeline dries up, I can't be sure whether Singapore would still be a good place to be. I'm thinking 10 or 15 years down the road, when I'm retired: would my hard earned dollars stretch further in Singapore or in Australia? And, even if both countries allowed me to stretch my retirement nest to similar lengths, which would offer me a better quality of post-retirement life?

I'll quote an example. Although I drive in Singapore, there's nowhere new to drive to (not after 20 years). Up north? The wife feels unsafe if I took the car up to Malaysia, she keeps worrying about the windscreen being smashed in, or the imminent car-jacking that would occur ... you get the picture. So, yeah, showroom new German continentals sitting pretty in the garage. And what about the often lauded "Gateway to Asia" tagline? Honestly, how many trips to Bangkok or Bali or Phuket or Lombok before it all starts to look, smell and taste the same?

astera quite astutely pointed out that the main contributor to the cost of living in Singapore is the roof over one's head. Well, that's slowly being taken care of - we've got a few years left on our mortgage for the house. But that in itself already speaks volumes of the cost of living in Singapore vs that in Australia. That one purchase of a property in Singapore cost more than all our properties in Sydney & Melbourne put together! And my fear is that, inevitably, the cost of living in Singapore will continue to rocket skywards - simply due to a lack of living space and all the 6.9m people they are trying to cram into the city.

So, I really don't think I'll remain happy in Singapore. Not after the pipeline dries up (and I'm under no illusions that it, like everything else in life, will end one day), not with 6.9m people crammed into a sardine can of a city and definitely not with the soggy humidity that leaves you with large swathes of armpit sweat stains the minute you leave the air-conditioned room/house/mall.

Clearly I would not. That's been the sticking point all along. If the post-tax difference in take home were £25,000 to £30,000 per annum, I could possibly grin & bear it. But, that post-tax delta in quantum is reflected monthly, and that, to me, is an enormous sum to give up per year. I know I'm in the classic conundrum of wanting my cake and eating it too, and I know I'll be accused of having deigned to the dollar deity, but if the roles were reversed, I'd wager a similar difficulty in making a decision that you wouldn't regret.

louie has given me some pretty good advice - and her situation is similar to mine, in a way. I really appreciated her insight - and I can only hope to be as ready as she was, when the time arrives for me to make the move. The timing was finally right for her, it isn't quite the case for me yet - but, given the age criterion for a 189, I had to take the plunge and apply for it now, even when I know I'm really not in the right frame of mind to move over presently.

On a side note, I found the exercise above - i.e. writing out the pros and cons the way I did - extremely helpful. It gave me a certain focus and it helped me justify the decisions I've had to make on some of the seemingly contradictory concerns that I've been wrestling with in the past fortnight. Thank you all, who've taken their time and trouble to contribute to this thread - I'm truly grateful for your input, and for your help.

Beoz

I have to agree. After living in London for so long, living in Surfers Paradise (which is really is not) would drive me around the twist.

There's only really a couple of places that give you that inner city, compact feel and that's inner Sydney and inner Melbourne. Everything either faked to be like that or is just the 'burbs.

astera

Xizzles, seems like you have a great setup over there in Holland. It's great that you are paying off a mortgage on a property - hang onto it as in Singapore prices will continue to skyrocket. And if you ever need to rent it out, that alone will give you a nice sum each month.

Overall I think that Australia is more expensive (barring a few things like booze and cars), though it has become 20-25% cheaper in recent times thanks to the overvalued AUD finally being knocked back into sensible territory. Overall the cost of living, if you are not paying rent or sending kids to private schools, is very decent in Singapore. In fact I would call Singapore an inexpensive place to live if you took out the handful of expensive elements like rental+car(s).

You raised a very good question though: “even if both countries allowed me to stretch my retirement nest to similar lengths, which would offer me a better quality of post-retirement life?”

I think at the end of the day it depends on your life-style. I enjoyed Singapore being a vibrant city where even all the stores/malls remain open until 10pm, where you can get a good meal at any time, where there is always something going on. And no matter where you go or at what time of day or night, it is A) always warm -AND- B) always safe. There is no other place like it.

As far as driving is concerned, it's amazing how perception and the limitations of a small country can influence people’s judgement of distance. For Singaporeans having to drive from Bukit Panjang to East Coast Park is "sooo far lah!". I recall friends telling me how they haven’t been to a certain place simply because it's too far of a drive. And I had though that the term "too far" doesn't apply to… anywhere in Singapore!

I agree that all those surrounding islands start being the same after a while. Personally I think vacations involving flying are good until you take your first cruise. After that you mainly looking forward to more cruises and start booking those instead. I’ve already got two more lined up so at least there is something to look forward to now.

In terms of moving to Australia, have you taken the Gold Coast into account? It was my #1 choice here as you have everything you need without the problems of a big city. If you like your cars and your landed property then there are loads of great places where you could live the life here, and even have your own boat if you pick up a house in Paradise Waters, Sovereign Islands or Cronin Island for instance.

You also have the luxury of having two airports closeby, Gold Coast Airport in lovely Coolangatta which now has super cheap, non-stop flights to Singapore on Scoot, as well as Brisbane airport which is just 80km away (and if you don't want to drive the train from here goes straight to the terminal - soooooo convenient).

Actually the Gold Coast is the only place I truly liked. Vibrant and cosmopolitan, looks like a mix of Singapore (due to the skyscrapers - tallest building in the southern hemisphere is still Q1 in Surfers Paradise) and Dubai (due to the palm-like developments, which are luckily done inland as opposed to wrecking the coastline). The skyline is very impressive, especially when you see it from the window of a plane - it looks like you're over Miami with all the tall buildings and all.

Plus the new, ultra-modern tram system built by Bombardier and spanning from Broadbeach thru Southport to Gold Coast University Hospital is great for moving about when you don't feel like driving.

I could have moved anywhere in Australia because my job isn't linked to any physical location. I thought about Cronulla, probably the only place in Sydney I'd consider, but I'd be bored to my bones after one month. It has the beach, it has the sun (those were the two rules that I wouldn't bend for anything: living close to the beach and living somewhere warm), but moving from Singapore you want a place that's alive. To me the Gold Coast fit the bill perfectly. Only thing that's difficult is my detox from Singapore.

I do not think I would be happier anywhere else in Australia, though I do want to give Perth a look just to make sure. Have you been to Brisbane? It has a lovely city centre and seems much more upscale as a whole than Sydney - even when you look at the people it's a step up the evolution ladder (better dressed, less tattoos, etc.).

Beoz

Re your thought on "anywhere else". You need to get out more