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Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Old Jan 16th 2015, 11:07 am
  #181  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Another day

Indeed and your posts follow the same rigid, stereotypical themes only: Australia is shit, the UK is utopia, boasting about how much you have (and sneering at and looking down on those who have less)

A right old pair aren't we!
Oh dear .....have I upset you?

Last edited by Grayling; Jan 16th 2015 at 11:25 am.
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Old Jan 16th 2015, 12:45 pm
  #182  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Grayling
Oh dear .....have I upset you?
At least you agree with me
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Old Jan 16th 2015, 12:55 pm
  #183  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Grayling
Oh dear .....have I upset you?
Originally Posted by Amazulu
At least you agree with me
Guys, please, lets keep it objective, not subjective
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Old Jan 16th 2015, 10:29 pm
  #184  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by knockoff nige
It's quite clear that the resentment is coming from you.

Regardless of what people feel, show us the hard cold facts that you were referring to. Some data you've plucked from random posts on here does not suffice. If corporate welfare was to be properly means tested, show us what the implications would be to business and then the economy. You don't have those facts, do you? But you agreed that hey should be properly means tested, correct? So where's your resentment coming from?
Where are you plucking all this random rubbish from? Oh I forgot, any argument to suit your own one sided beliefs.

Ultimately, tax laws are what they are. You can either moan and resent or you can accept, jump on board and be happy.

Lets also remember I'm a PAYE servant so none of what you call corporate welfare benefits me personally. But I do firmly believe strength at the top affects the greater economy for the benefit of all. If you feel strength at the top poorly affects the middle class and lower (which is me) then your problem - I'm happy.
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Old Jan 17th 2015, 12:49 am
  #185  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Beoz
Where are you plucking all this random rubbish from? Oh I forgot, any argument to suit your own one sided beliefs.

Ultimately, tax laws are what they are. You can either moan and resent or you can accept, jump on board and be happy.

Lets also remember I'm a PAYE servant so none of what you call corporate welfare benefits me personally. But I do firmly believe strength at the top affects the greater economy for the benefit of all. If you feel strength at the top poorly affects the middle class and lower (which is me) then your problem - I'm happy.
What random rubbish? That corporate welfare isn't fairly means tested?

Tax are are what they are, no-one is disputing that. They are created by legislators. Are they heavily influenced by lobby groups in the business sector? Yes. Are they in place because of traditional views on capitalism versus our current version of that system? Yes. Corporate welfare (you don't seem to believe in that) is unfairly awarded and does not use the same standards as it does for welfare for the poor (those who actually need it). Rich businesses who make billions in profit receive tax assistance. Is it to keep them afloat or is it because that's just what the tax laws are? I refer you to your second point, you'll agree that that's what the laws are.

If you accept that you do not benefit from corporate welfare, then why exactly do we have it? Why do businesses need it if individuals don't indirectly benefit? Now, you'll reverse course and say but you do benefit indirectly by having a job to go to. Well, as per my example of drugs in sport, they only need it as everyone else is getting it. Take it away and we'll have a more honest playing field. I'm not against welfare in the business sector, it should just be for those that need it though.

I don't have one sided beliefs. I think properly awarding welfare, applying GST in a more affordable way and essentially enabling lower income earners to spend their money benefits every tier. But, you show resentment to the poor as you think they should be forced to help themselves and that those who can't are just a minority who will fall between the cracks. You said that on another thread. Well, the truth is, we have so many unemployed and fo few jobs. We have many on disability pensions because of business not being obligated to employ disabled people. We have pensioners, many of who lost a lot in the GFC caused by greedy business ****heads, who cannot survive on cut pensions or more expensive health care. My beliefs are not one sided at all.
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Old Jan 17th 2015, 7:36 am
  #186  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Alan Collett
Do you blame the individuals/corporations, or the politicians who legislate?

Remember this famous quote:

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone
does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands."


It is with this in mind that I question anyone who asserts that the tax paid by any person or corporation should be "fair".

Best regards.
OK we all pay what we consider a worthwhile rate then. Funny I personally know a person that fell foul of tax authorities in the late 90's , with a alleged legal tax scheme connected to pine plantations. Given bad advice I'm afraid along with hundreds of others and had to down size his home and was close to, I suspect did suffer a mental breakdown during the process.
So something that appeared legal was not what it seemed and I'd call pretty sinister.

Courts enforce the law which we all know may or may not be fair. It is up to the state to provide a degree of fairness for citizens from within parliament.
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Old Jan 17th 2015, 7:39 am
  #187  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Beoz
Where are you plucking all this random rubbish from? Oh I forgot, any argument to suit your own one sided beliefs.

Ultimately, tax laws are what they are. You can either moan and resent or you can accept, jump on board and be happy.

Lets also remember I'm a PAYE servant so none of what you call corporate welfare benefits me personally. But I do firmly believe strength at the top affects the greater economy for the benefit of all. If you feel strength at the top poorly affects the middle class and lower (which is me) then your problem - I'm happy.
Like any laws you can highlight injustices and campaign for change. Tax rules are not made in concrete and can and do change according to the politics and economics at the time.
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Old Jan 17th 2015, 7:42 am
  #188  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Nothing has changed. You're just of the many BE posters who only read what they want to read #blinkerson
Well know I read what is written and I suppose you are all too easy to read.
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Old Jan 18th 2015, 1:46 am
  #189  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

OK, this argument is getting nowhere - so let's attack it from a different direction.

Most people realise you can't have a very small number of people having all the money and the rest none. In that circumstance there is nobody to buy anything (and the economic system collapses) and/or eventually those very small number of people end up hanging by their balls from a lamppost.

Equally, you can't have everyone with the same wealth, since there is no incentive to do anything, growth is low or non-existent, and in any case it's unstable to perturbations and corruption.

So nirvana lies somewhere in the middle.

So what do people think the optimum is?
  • Is it some progressive taxation of the rich, coupled with some minimal support for the poor?
  • It is a base level safety net for all at a liveable standard, with progressive taxation on the rest?
  • Is it a flat tax rate for all, adjusted so as to fund the spend needed for effective government?
  • Is it particular focus on limiting extreme wealth and spreading it out?
  • Is it PAYG taxation where the level of taxation = your usage of services?
  • Is it reliance on the rich to give charity to the poor, with no government spend?
  • Is it masters and slaves, where the master looks after the slave and you HAVE to be a slave if you don't have the money to be a master?
What's the model and what's the level that most people think is most likely to succeed for the country?
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Old Jan 31st 2015, 5:47 am
  #190  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Alan Collett
I'm not disputing there is a tiered rate of income tax in Australia.

This concept of "fair" that I see waved around is what I have an issue with. It means different things to different people, and is meaningless.

What % should be the highest rate of income tax? When should it be applied? Do you want more than one half of the income of the highest earners to be deducted in tax? The highest rate of income tax is already some 49%.

To fund the demands on healthcare in Australia (which is where the suggestion of raising the rate of GST comes from) are you proposing that the highest rate of income tax should deduct more than one half of each additional $ of income from those earning more than $180k annually?

Best regards.
I have read very little of the posts but what you have said is correct.Probably best summed up by Abe Lincoln "You don't strengthen the poor by weakening the rich".

Being in the top 1% of income earners and taxpayers in OZ I wonder how much tax they would like me to pay.At present I pay six figures a year,and still aim to pay 7 figures in tax (1 million$$).This of course includes franking credits to avoid double taxation.Sadly paying 7 figures in tax will not happen but I can live in hope.

In a back of envelope figure CBA will pay $3billion in tax this year,they will create money for people by lending them money,they will employ people,they will pay out around $20 billion or more in interest,which will be taxed.

The masses will fool themselves that this is evil,and bleat why doesn't the govt do something about it.CBA will create a lot of wealth for a lot of people,even if it may only be through their super funds.The employees of CBA will take roughly the same out of the company that the shareholders do,possibly more.The annual report will give the figures..

Nothing is going to change,the greed of the human race is always somebody else should pay more so they can pay less.the non stop greed on the board,"can anybody show me how to pay less tax,can anybody show them how to cheat on the taxes they pay".

Can everybody sign this petition so I can get the full pension but I don't want to pay the full NICS.

You are correct,the rich do pay most of the taxes.The problem they (the masses) have is that on an average income they now pay around 23% or less in tax.Looking at my old pay notes from 1990 my taxation was 37% on an average income.That is a huge drop in taxation income,although some of it has been recovered from GST which we did not have then.

There are not enough rich people to pay tax,around 0.5% of the population are millionaires.Taking a few $$ off the 10 million or so average earners gives a greater take than a lot from the rich.The stupidity shines through as they think rich means a lot of money.Rich means a lot of income producing assets.

To use CBA again as an example the number of people that own 100,000 shares is around 300 or less.Most of them are super/pension funds.If we assume that 10% (very high in my opinion) are individuals then 30 people have $9 million worth of CBA shares.Wealthy to normal standards,poor to the super rich.

There are very few billionaires,to the stupidity of the masses the money should be taken off them and shared.If we assume that it was and the wealth was $100 billion,this would give every body $5000 each. To get that round the population to 20 million,cancel the zeros and we have 20 people sharing $100,000.I wonder what they would do with their new found wealth and an economy that has been destroyed?

Let them be happy in their financial ignorance,ignorance is bliss as they say.


Geordie downunder
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Old Jan 31st 2015, 9:04 pm
  #191  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by swans
I have read very little of the posts but what you have said is correct.Probably best summed up by Abe Lincoln "You don't strengthen the poor by weakening the rich".

Being in the top 1% of income earners and taxpayers in OZ I wonder how much tax they would like me to pay.At present I pay six figures a year,and still aim to pay 7 figures in tax (1 million$$).This of course includes franking credits to avoid double taxation.Sadly paying 7 figures in tax will not happen but I can live in hope.

In a back of envelope figure CBA will pay $3billion in tax this year,they will create money for people by lending them money,they will employ people,they will pay out around $20 billion or more in interest,which will be taxed.

The masses will fool themselves that this is evil,and bleat why doesn't the govt do something about it.CBA will create a lot of wealth for a lot of people,even if it may only be through their super funds.The employees of CBA will take roughly the same out of the company that the shareholders do,possibly more.The annual report will give the figures..

Nothing is going to change,the greed of the human race is always somebody else should pay more so they can pay less.the non stop greed on the board,"can anybody show me how to pay less tax,can anybody show them how to cheat on the taxes they pay".

Can everybody sign this petition so I can get the full pension but I don't want to pay the full NICS.

You are correct,the rich do pay most of the taxes.The problem they (the masses) have is that on an average income they now pay around 23% or less in tax.Looking at my old pay notes from 1990 my taxation was 37% on an average income.That is a huge drop in taxation income,although some of it has been recovered from GST which we did not have then.

There are not enough rich people to pay tax,around 0.5% of the population are millionaires.Taking a few $$ off the 10 million or so average earners gives a greater take than a lot from the rich.The stupidity shines through as they think rich means a lot of money.Rich means a lot of income producing assets.

To use CBA again as an example the number of people that own 100,000 shares is around 300 or less.Most of them are super/pension funds.If we assume that 10% (very high in my opinion) are individuals then 30 people have $9 million worth of CBA shares.Wealthy to normal standards,poor to the super rich.

There are very few billionaires,to the stupidity of the masses the money should be taken off them and shared.If we assume that it was and the wealth was $100 billion,this would give every body $5000 each. To get that round the population to 20 million,cancel the zeros and we have 20 people sharing $100,000.I wonder what they would do with their new found wealth and an economy that has been destroyed?

Let them be happy in their financial ignorance,ignorance is bliss as they say.


Geordie downunder
So Rich = brilliant, poor = stupid.

Gotcha
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Old Feb 1st 2015, 12:31 am
  #192  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by knockoff nige
So Rich = brilliant, poor = stupid.

Gotcha

If I might say, a more insightful response from you, nige, would be one that addresses the arguments.

Best regards.
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Old Feb 1st 2015, 1:18 am
  #193  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by swans
I have read very little of the posts but what you have said is correct.Probably best summed up by Abe Lincoln "You don't strengthen the poor by weakening the rich".

Being in the top 1% of income earners and taxpayers in OZ I wonder how much tax they would like me to pay.At present I pay six figures a year,and still aim to pay 7 figures in tax (1 million$$).This of course includes franking credits to avoid double taxation.Sadly paying 7 figures in tax will not happen but I can live in hope.

In a back of envelope figure CBA will pay $3billion in tax this year,they will create money for people by lending them money,they will employ people,they will pay out around $20 billion or more in interest,which will be taxed.

The masses will fool themselves that this is evil,and bleat why doesn't the govt do something about it.CBA will create a lot of wealth for a lot of people,even if it may only be through their super funds.The employees of CBA will take roughly the same out of the company that the shareholders do,possibly more.The annual report will give the figures..

Nothing is going to change,the greed of the human race is always somebody else should pay more so they can pay less.the non stop greed on the board,"can anybody show me how to pay less tax,can anybody show them how to cheat on the taxes they pay".

Can everybody sign this petition so I can get the full pension but I don't want to pay the full NICS.

You are correct,the rich do pay most of the taxes.The problem they (the masses) have is that on an average income they now pay around 23% or less in tax.Looking at my old pay notes from 1990 my taxation was 37% on an average income.That is a huge drop in taxation income,although some of it has been recovered from GST which we did not have then.

There are not enough rich people to pay tax,around 0.5% of the population are millionaires.Taking a few $$ off the 10 million or so average earners gives a greater take than a lot from the rich.The stupidity shines through as they think rich means a lot of money.Rich means a lot of income producing assets.

To use CBA again as an example the number of people that own 100,000 shares is around 300 or less.Most of them are super/pension funds.If we assume that 10% (very high in my opinion) are individuals then 30 people have $9 million worth of CBA shares.Wealthy to normal standards,poor to the super rich.

There are very few billionaires,to the stupidity of the masses the money should be taken off them and shared.If we assume that it was and the wealth was $100 billion,this would give every body $5000 each. To get that round the population to 20 million,cancel the zeros and we have 20 people sharing $100,000.I wonder what they would do with their new found wealth and an economy that has been destroyed?

Let them be happy in their financial ignorance,ignorance is bliss as they say.


Geordie downunder
The argument remains. Ever more wealth is falling into the hands of the super rich including corporations than ever. The so called 1 %. I'm afraid I am totally unable to see any justification in this and by enfeebling the poor will not do the cause of the super rich a lot of good at all. History does tend to replay, if not totally the same reel.
There is absolutely nothing written in stone that the present financial system is the sum total of possibility. In fact once it fails to deliver to enough people the strains will show.
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Old Feb 1st 2015, 2:00 am
  #194  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Originally Posted by Alan Collett
If I might say, a more insightful response from you, nige, would be one that addresses the arguments.

Best regards.
Yes, I've already done so. I was replying to the ignorance of swans post. My views on this topic are already stated. As are yours, which don't inspire.

Swans post started off with quite a bit of ignorance with his Abraham Lincoln quote. Not suggesting Abe wasn't a bright fella, but to quote him in this context shows how blinkered Swan is willing to be. Nobody is weakening the wealthy. The wealthy should be capable of surviving and prosperingn on their own. That would prove their accomplishments as earned and deserved. No-one is taking from the wealthy. We should just expect that they pay their fair share (a term you dislike). If Warren Buffet agrees with me, how can it be wrong? The greatest capitalist alive thinks he pays too little tax.
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Old Feb 1st 2015, 5:37 am
  #195  
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Default Re: Call To Raise GST A Regressive Step?

Yes, I know your views, nige.

This said, I'm still unclear on how much you consider is a fair share of tax. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, methinks ... what's fair to me probably isn't fair to you.

Who's to say which of us is right?

Best regards.
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