Badge

This post is based on an answer I gave a poll (someone wrote about male culture in the UK.) Got me thinking.

One of the reasons why I am leaving the UK is the class system.

As a bloke you've either got to be a working class soccer loving hero bit of a geezer - especially in London - or you've got to be a smug, effete, middle class mummy's boy mortgaged to the hilt, liberal etc honestly there sometimes seems to be no middle ground.

If you have a nice accent then you're 'posh' even though the plumber or electrician or tradesman you're talking to earns heaps more than you do. You just can't win. OK - maybe I am generalising and expect to receive loads of abuse - but since I came back to the UK it is very noticeable. My Australian friends and family noticed it too when they visited.

I grew up in a council flat in quite a bit of poverty but as my grandfather was in the church was lucky enough to have experienced a good education which has meant I'm not a typical victim of the class system. seen both sides.

When I served with the British Regular Army as a ranker I was often mistaken for an officer which was bloody annoying and almost drove me to tears of fustration. In the UK a nice accent automatically means your upper or middle class. The boys in the Army didn't belive my council estate origins. having said that the great thing about the forces is that middle class officers get to sit in a trench with the 'workers' - a great leveller - wish graduate middle managers would come down to the factory floor etc..

I know people have taken the piss out of my "james bond" adventures but one of the reasons why I am moving to Aus is that over there you are "allowed" to be an allrounder. Have a degree eg but also have bee a 'bushman' - have a pilots license but also be not 'rich'. The only way you can live like that over here is having served in the forces where you have an opportunity to be an allrounder.

Australian blokes seem far happier, more well-rounded, more relaxed and not quite so 'confused'. Men are men and women are women.

I think the British class system represses EVERYONE.

What are people's views on the British class system, and does this "repression" cause other people to want to move? or is it just money lifestyle etc. What do Aussies think? Or Kiwis or Canadians?

badgers

I was going to add for the flamers that in all countries you have people competing to keep up with the joneses's you can't escape that.....buts thats an issue of self development and status not class.

Pollyana

Hear hear badger, well said mate!
Oh for that new start, where hardly anyone knows me, and people don't care about my background or what my dad did for a living, or what sort of school I went to!
I can't tell people at work that I have a degree cos they stick their noses in the air and treat me like a "toff", and as for admitting to the pilot's licence - I know exactly where you are coming from.....they don't realise it took a whacking big bank loan that is still being paid off, they just think pilot = money = posh.

Get me out of here to that lovely country down south, where I have always felt accepted for who I really am, not who people THINK I should be.....

chris-t

i couldnt agree more.

the class system in this country is very much still alive and kicking. It is frustrating for anybody who doesnt revel in being working class or a toff, in fact for the majority of the country who want to get the same chance and respect in whatever they choose to do.

sport is a great example of this. it doesn't take much insight to see which sports are dominated from people from which backgrounds (and this goes both ways). no wonder the rest of the world is beating us.

but we shouldnt get the class system confused with snobery. (thats another problem in which england dominates)

Badge

you're right - people confuse snobbery with class. Its the snobbery that causes the keeping up with the joneses - which you get everywhere. In the UK, snobbery is taken further - people use IT to try to "keep" their class or - God grief - move "up" a class...

and before someone says that there is class and elite schools in Aus - we know! - of course there are the RAH RAHs and the ockers - but I still wager that people mix more readily.

;-)

jesus. I knew A level Sociology would come in handy one day.

captaincook

I think it is so sad that in this day and age people talk about class. Hugely naive to link speach to class. Its also ironic that Badger wants to move to Oz to avoid the class system. Anybody that has lived in Oz for more than a few months will laugh at that statement its just so completely misinformed.

Oz in my view has both the UK class system and a US class system running side by side. The old boy networks and old money families are all here and ruthlessly protective of their powerful positions - in Oz they are very big fishes in a little pond whereas in UK they are only small fishes in a large pond.

The other US style class system here is the money variety and that is rife. People try and beat the jones, buy a better car, send kids to private schools all to get ahead of the next person. John Howard has directly appealed to this huge emerging growing group in Oz which are classified the aspirational classes, the emerging middle classes.

Badger may have fallen for the easy going crocodile dundee image of australians but unfortunately that it just good marketing. The reality is Australians are just as wound up, critical and having to work harder to make a living as all the rest of the world. In fact Aussies have to work far harder as the country cannot afford the opportunities available in other parts of the world.

Unfortunately they are also aspiring to be Americans and mid-western ones at that with all the bad things that brings with it.
In fact from my eyes Oz is a combination of life in mid-west america and a high taxing labour style socialist government. It really is the worst combination with boring suburbia being governed by a bunch of high taxing over protective lefties.

pommie bastard

Not a lot of class here but try the Aussie word battler , the class system is here but your place is attained by Wealth and accent.
Too many who want become refugees are looking for piss poor reasons this one of them.

dotty

Ocker Class - work but live in low income area, enjoy beer footy, woman is large, subserviant, crude.

Battler class - Basically bludgers, welfare minded, scream poor, expect taxpayer to supply everyting as their right.

Mortage Class, mortaged up to the hilt, loans on car, appliances, everyting you can imagaine.

Working Poor - Struggling by two incomes but still getting nowhere due to low wages or casual hours.

Would be could be class - Phoney, BMW on lease because they cant afford one, big house pool all not paid for but boy it looks flash, kids in private uniform at 9pm because you need to show it off.

Tradesman class - doing bloody well, new 4wd, Oz is a beauty mate, wife on plastic surgery.

Upper class Doctors Lawyers - down your nose but peed off really that the Tradesman is probably earning more.

Really Rich - old banger car who cares if you have that much money what people think, kids in State school because that is trendy, lots of property probably do own bookwork as they dont trust anyone.

Plenty of classes here, just look at any Suburb, nearly all have one predominant type. Very Suburban, very defined by class.

Florida_03

I like the way you put the Tradesman class just under the doctors and lawyers...that is true...but now you've given the game away...

Wilf

The class system is here in Oz but has a different version of it. Like PB says, it is more based on money than ancestry because it is a newer country (like USA). Look down on someone because they have the wrong accent/school/background or look down on someone because they have less money and a smaller house. Much difference? You show with your own life that the reality is more complicated so ignore anyone who wants to put you in your place. It is very fashionable to be common now anyway - see Jamie Oliver and Michael Caine. When I was at school, you spoke like Michael Caine and you got the ruler on your hand. Compared to those days, there is no class system in the UK or Oz.

pommie bastard

Just an after thought this country has the Queen has head of state and you say there is no class system.
The 500 Aussies in the Queens honours list last week would go for that?

Grub

One thing that you have identified is the fact that in the UK 'trades people' are thought poorly of- yet the staggering thing is they earn far more than the 'white collar' workers. Over in Oz you feel absolutey as proud as punch to say 'I am a carpenter/ plumber/ sparky etc' as they have enormous respect for trades. I am infinitely proud that my husband is a chippie wheras in UK i felt like i had to apologise for the fact that he didnt have a degree/ work in an office just beacuse of peoples culture and general snobbiness.

Oh and i cant believe that PB is still at it- when the f'in geffin are you going back to UK?? I am sure that last year you were quoting July 03- god willing you speed my dear...

Rune

WA is, I think, much more egalitarian than the Eastern State, maybe because of the type of Pommie migrants who come here. Many seem to be what we would formerly have categorised as "working class" with middle-class aspirations.

pommie bastard

Not till end of August and you still in the mansion in Padbury , now that is a lower working class area here , still work 7 days a week and you may crawl your way out I did?
You must meet a very limited group of people in your lower class circle of building trade chaps.

Herman

Mate, have you tried living outside of the south east, perhaps in the south west or north of england? I live in London and of course I recognise the class the system you describe, I am probably the only person in my entire division who did not attend private school and who does not speak perfect Queens english (slight west country/mixed with slight Aussie accent) so its in my face all the time. In fact, when I first took my job here in London my Eton educated boss suggested that the firm would pay for elocution lessons to soften my slight (and everyone in the south west thinks I have no accent - they think I'm posh) west country accent. He thought a hint of west country would offend the delicate ears of out dear clients. I told him in my strongest accent that "I aint avin none of that gert nonsense".

However, I have two comments:
1. The class system I experienced in Sydney is almost as prevailent. In my firm they placed great value on those who came from particular areas, who went to a particular school or who were from particular "known" Sydney families. The ONLY way business deals get done in and leads generated in Sydney is via the old boys network, which is smaller and tighter than anything I experienced in London. To think otherwise is quite wrong.

2. My experience outside of the south east of england, having lived in Bristol, Southampton and for a while Manchester is that the class system/snobbery is far less of an issue.

So my view is that if someone's main criteria for moving to, say, Sydney is to escape the class system then I would advise them to think of some better reasons.

Badge

good points.

Most of the issues you talk about I still think are the keeping up with the joneses ones which as we've said you get everywhere. I know where you are coming from when you say there is both a UK and a UK class system.

But I feel Grub is right - I've met tradesmen in Aus who feel far prouder than their English counterparts. My point was not so much there is no class system in Aus - more like no one really cares AS MUCH. And the fact that people are HAPPIER and CONFIDENT in their "class", and that they mix. I was at barbies with 747 pilots, plumbers etc. Everyone had the same confidence.

In fact - as I feel there is little work in my profession - and I dont want to live in a city - I am considering retraining as a tradesmen.

thanks for giving me your views.

badgers