457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Aug 10th 2013, 12:55 am
#46
Officially Bewildered
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW
Posts: 5,523
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
I'm not sure people can accurately claim they pay 'twice'.
I mean, childless people also pay the same amount of tax (in fact probably more due to less access to tax breaks) and fund other people's kids education. Before I get lynched, I have no issue with that, it's part of living in a society - but as bikeframed mentions that investment in society is in people who will shortly leave...or so their visa suggests.
I mean, childless people also pay the same amount of tax (in fact probably more due to less access to tax breaks) and fund other people's kids education. Before I get lynched, I have no issue with that, it's part of living in a society - but as bikeframed mentions that investment in society is in people who will shortly leave...or so their visa suggests.
The Government doesn't view education as a right (not really) - they look at it as an investment in the future of the country (very simplistically). It is expected that an Australian student will generally become an active and productive member of the Australian workforce and the taxes (both direct and indirect) generated by them will more than offset the cost of their education. The 457 is a temporary visa so it is expected that eventually those students will return to their home country, taking all that valuable education with them in their heads.
Education is heavily subsidised, even for a lot of private/religion based schools. As bikeframed said, the cost of a year of education here in Australia is probably way more than whatever levy state governments place on 457 holders. If you look at the rates charged for international students (which students on a 457 are NOT classed as, well not at primary/high school level, anyway- uni is a whole different ballgame, no matter which state you're in) you can see they are much, much higher than the $4-5000 discussed.
Here's NSW's fee structure. Fee Structure for International Students
Why the discrepancy? Well, of course, charging international students is a money cow. But it also more closely reflects the cost of education here. Even when 457 holding students are charged for school fees, it is still subsidised. Perhaps not in the ACT where the costs seems huge but I think that certain occupations can get an exemption (don't live there, so don't know the details of that)
Having said all that, I wouldn't be overly impressed if I suddenly had to find school fees for three kids...
Aug 10th 2013, 2:39 am
#47
Daffyd Duck
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Paradise
Posts: 5,636
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
I'm not sure people can accurately claim they pay 'twice'.
I mean, childless people also pay the same amount of tax (in fact probably more due to less access to tax breaks) and fund other people's kids education. Before I get lynched, I have no issue with that, it's part of living in a society - but as bikeframed mentions that investment in society is in people who will shortly leave...or so their visa suggests.
I mean, childless people also pay the same amount of tax (in fact probably more due to less access to tax breaks) and fund other people's kids education. Before I get lynched, I have no issue with that, it's part of living in a society - but as bikeframed mentions that investment in society is in people who will shortly leave...or so their visa suggests.
Why do childless people have to pay same rates of taxes as breeders?
Why do healthy active people have to pay same rate of Medicare as the pouch cotatoes?
Isn't in unfair?
We can go on and on.
Aug 10th 2013, 4:33 am
#48
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,775
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
If companies are being allowed to exploit the system then the problem is with the companies not the individuals. The thing is they are not making it harder for companies at all, they are punishing the people that the companies are bringing in which is a huge difference. Whilst I agree that it shouldn't be so easy for a company to overlook skilled people in Aus in favour of bringing people over on a 457, it also stands to reason that this is in no way the fault of the people they are bringing in.
The company I work for ran a recruitment campaign not so long ago and only found one person from Australia to fill one of the 10 vacancies. They decided to go back to the UK and recruit 9 people on 457 visas. The company believe the people that they interviewed in Australia were not coming up to the standard that they required. Hence they decided it necessary to go back to the UK to bring people in with the right skills to move the company forward. This isn't any of the people they are recruiting's fault, it is purely the company making this decision. Yet the government want to penalise these people
As far as tax is concerned, if you go onto the ATO website and do the "Am I resident for tax purposes" tool, it states that you are resident for tax purposes even if you are a temporary worker. My brother in law is here on a working holiday visa and even he is resident for tax purposes. So the tax we are paying on this visa is indeed being ploughed back into WA.
Coming here on a 457 visa is no free lunch, as you put it, at all. I work and pay taxes, I'm not entitled to any benefits, which is right, or many of the tax benefits that people on PR are entitled to. I think that people are blinkered into believing whatever the media tell them to believe. It's an easy win, politically, targetting the people on 457 visas after the media have been telling everyone for years how easy it is for 457 visa holders. How they are earning here and sending all of their money back to their home country. How can Aus possibly survive when this happening blah blah. Exactly the same thing is happening in the UK, the UK media paint the same picture of Eastern Europeans. It is easier for them to actually send a lot of their money back to their home country because they are part of the EU. I for one do not believe all that I read in the papers and like to see real facts before making any decisions.
I am starting the PR process right at this minute but it still irks me to see some of the rubbish that is printed as truth.
Cheers
John
The company I work for ran a recruitment campaign not so long ago and only found one person from Australia to fill one of the 10 vacancies. They decided to go back to the UK and recruit 9 people on 457 visas. The company believe the people that they interviewed in Australia were not coming up to the standard that they required. Hence they decided it necessary to go back to the UK to bring people in with the right skills to move the company forward. This isn't any of the people they are recruiting's fault, it is purely the company making this decision. Yet the government want to penalise these people
As far as tax is concerned, if you go onto the ATO website and do the "Am I resident for tax purposes" tool, it states that you are resident for tax purposes even if you are a temporary worker. My brother in law is here on a working holiday visa and even he is resident for tax purposes. So the tax we are paying on this visa is indeed being ploughed back into WA.
Coming here on a 457 visa is no free lunch, as you put it, at all. I work and pay taxes, I'm not entitled to any benefits, which is right, or many of the tax benefits that people on PR are entitled to. I think that people are blinkered into believing whatever the media tell them to believe. It's an easy win, politically, targetting the people on 457 visas after the media have been telling everyone for years how easy it is for 457 visa holders. How they are earning here and sending all of their money back to their home country. How can Aus possibly survive when this happening blah blah. Exactly the same thing is happening in the UK, the UK media paint the same picture of Eastern Europeans. It is easier for them to actually send a lot of their money back to their home country because they are part of the EU. I for one do not believe all that I read in the papers and like to see real facts before making any decisions.
I am starting the PR process right at this minute but it still irks me to see some of the rubbish that is printed as truth.
Cheers
John
If locals were not sourced as was the case in many instances, once that condition was removed, it is but little wonder they became peeved off when this fact was brought to light.
The conditions should be as such. It business wants a temp worker on a short term basis all well and good as long as a local is unavailable. Secondly they must meet with all expenses incurred.
The original concept was very highly skilled professionals here short term. It lost a certain amount of credibility when it became a cheaper and quicker option for your run of the mill migrant or those that wouldn't have been able to entre under the point system.
Aug 10th 2013, 4:40 am
#49
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,775
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Correct. Agree 100%. Like I said it's great that companies are being monitored more to ensure the 457 is provided to the right people for the right reason although we're still a loooooong way off getting it right.
Disagree. The visa changes have been put into place to a) discourage companies using the option of bringing in people where the skills are available in Aus b) to stop 457 visa holders using Australian infrastructure whilst not supporting it. The visa changes are no different to any visa where changes are often put into place to slow down or make required changes.
Agree - however 457 visa holders are no different to any other visa holders in that rules sometimes change
No one is saying 457 visa's are not required - what IS being said is that often companies / recruitment people bring in skills that are CLEARLY available in Aus and despite this available skills are brought in when there are MANY skilled migrants and Australians already here and overlooked when people brought in because lazy or inadequate recruitment companies or companies cannot be bothered to see what's here. Inexperienced recruitment people pigeon hole and can't see outside the box - it's easier to bring someone in - not in all cases but in hell of a lot of cases this happens. Yep bringing in skills where there are none is definitely required however recruitment companies and companies MUST prove this and be more accountable.
That wasn'y my question. My question was - is it compulsory to pay Aussie tax on 457 earnings or can you elect to pay tax in another country
You are getting your knickers in a twist - my post wasn't aimed at you direct or indeed at ALL 457 visa's - it was aimed at those who have come over on the visa when clearly those skills are available IN AUSTRALIA
Good - perm visa means you don't have to worry about temp visa issues.
As for rubbish printed - FYI my opinion is based on what I've seen first hand with both recruitment services and companies using 457 to bring in skills that are DEFINITLY available in Australia. Accountability bring the key I reckon
Disagree. The visa changes have been put into place to a) discourage companies using the option of bringing in people where the skills are available in Aus b) to stop 457 visa holders using Australian infrastructure whilst not supporting it. The visa changes are no different to any visa where changes are often put into place to slow down or make required changes.
Agree - however 457 visa holders are no different to any other visa holders in that rules sometimes change
No one is saying 457 visa's are not required - what IS being said is that often companies / recruitment people bring in skills that are CLEARLY available in Aus and despite this available skills are brought in when there are MANY skilled migrants and Australians already here and overlooked when people brought in because lazy or inadequate recruitment companies or companies cannot be bothered to see what's here. Inexperienced recruitment people pigeon hole and can't see outside the box - it's easier to bring someone in - not in all cases but in hell of a lot of cases this happens. Yep bringing in skills where there are none is definitely required however recruitment companies and companies MUST prove this and be more accountable.
That wasn'y my question. My question was - is it compulsory to pay Aussie tax on 457 earnings or can you elect to pay tax in another country
You are getting your knickers in a twist - my post wasn't aimed at you direct or indeed at ALL 457 visa's - it was aimed at those who have come over on the visa when clearly those skills are available IN AUSTRALIA
Good - perm visa means you don't have to worry about temp visa issues.
As for rubbish printed - FYI my opinion is based on what I've seen first hand with both recruitment services and companies using 457 to bring in skills that are DEFINITLY available in Australia. Accountability bring the key I reckon
Aug 10th 2013, 11:23 am
#50
Aussie Finn Mixture!
Joined: May 2005
Location: Leschenault WA (after few locations around WA and Around Europe!)
Posts: 1,151
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Aug 10th 2013, 2:29 pm
#51
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Not Brisbane
Posts: 1,210
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Since LAFHA was removed the Australia economy has gone down the shitter
coincidence?
This'll make it worse and instead of skilled Europeans and Americans doing the vital jobs on a 457 for a few years and leaving, you'll get someone with two degrees from the sub-continent with 6 kids on a permanent visa who can't do the job half as good.
coincidence?
This'll make it worse and instead of skilled Europeans and Americans doing the vital jobs on a 457 for a few years and leaving, you'll get someone with two degrees from the sub-continent with 6 kids on a permanent visa who can't do the job half as good.
Aug 10th 2013, 10:58 pm
#53
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Since LAFHA was removed the Australia economy has gone down the shitter
coincidence?
This'll make it worse and instead of skilled Europeans and Americans doing the vital jobs on a 457 for a few years and leaving, you'll get someone with two degrees from the sub-continent with 6 kids on a permanent visa who can't do the job half as good.
coincidence?
This'll make it worse and instead of skilled Europeans and Americans doing the vital jobs on a 457 for a few years and leaving, you'll get someone with two degrees from the sub-continent with 6 kids on a permanent visa who can't do the job half as good.
Unfortunately 3 degrees from the sub continent lacks common sense training and the ability to think outside the box. Getting a little tired of working with robotic indians myself.
Aug 11th 2013, 12:42 am
#54
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 383
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
This 457 is a sham, I have never worked amongst so many fraudulant imposters in my life.
Aug 11th 2013, 3:14 am
#55
no stressin no fussin....
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Fantasy Island....
Posts: 12,616
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
No one has a problem with specialist skills being brought in where there is a genuine requirement - common sense means if a job needs doing then the right person with the right skills needs to do it. But this hasn't been the case in a hell of a lot of cases. The job situation in Aus is shite and in these times everyone is accountable to make sure the need is genuine.
Aug 11th 2013, 5:08 am
#56
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,803
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
Please don't tar every person or every company with the same brush - it can cause a world of undeserved hurt for some families.
Aug 11th 2013, 10:08 pm
#57
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 115
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
That may well be the case with many 457 positions, but please remember we have a lot of posters who either started on a 457, or are currently on one, and who took jobs in good faith with good intentions.
Please don't tar every person or every company with the same brush - it can cause a world of undeserved hurt for some families.
Please don't tar every person or every company with the same brush - it can cause a world of undeserved hurt for some families.
Aug 12th 2013, 5:35 am
#58
Gutter Gob!!
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 13,098
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
That may well be the case with many 457 positions, but please remember we have a lot of posters who either started on a 457, or are currently on one, and who took jobs in good faith with good intentions.
Please don't tar every person or every company with the same brush - it can cause a world of undeserved hurt for some families.
Please don't tar every person or every company with the same brush - it can cause a world of undeserved hurt for some families.
Aug 12th 2013, 8:17 am
#59
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
We have 2 kids and haven't budgeted for this at all.
I spoke to a reporter at the West Australian about this today as its a disgrace. Her name is Kim McDonald and she reports on lots of 457 visa related stories. Her direct telephone number is 9482 3104. She is interested in running a story on this matter but needs people affected by this to come forward so she can report this as a case study ie photos and direct quotes ffrom people telling how bad this is
Any one interested in doing this should speak to her ASAP.
Thanks :-)
I spoke to a reporter at the West Australian about this today as its a disgrace. Her name is Kim McDonald and she reports on lots of 457 visa related stories. Her direct telephone number is 9482 3104. She is interested in running a story on this matter but needs people affected by this to come forward so she can report this as a case study ie photos and direct quotes ffrom people telling how bad this is
Any one interested in doing this should speak to her ASAP.
Thanks :-)
Aug 12th 2013, 8:31 am
#60
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Canberra
Posts: 8,377
Re: 457s will have to pay for their kids education in WA.....
It's not a disgrace, it's something you need to discuss with your employer - renegotiate your conditions. They need you, they will foot the bill.
