457 visa scrapped
Apr 19th 2017, 10:04 am
#16
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Because in reality you can and should be training up locals to do those jobs in relatively short time - any shortage is purely down to local training failures and red tape.
Whereas aircraft pilot? That takes a LOT of training, money etc. over many years and an aptitude, AND they are in demand at the moment - with aussie pilots going to SE Asia and MENA to take advantage of the pay packets they can get.
The rhetoric of Trunbull and the potato don't match the reality of their actions.
Whereas aircraft pilot? That takes a LOT of training, money etc. over many years and an aptitude, AND they are in demand at the moment - with aussie pilots going to SE Asia and MENA to take advantage of the pay packets they can get.
The rhetoric of Trunbull and the potato don't match the reality of their actions.
Chefs are in short supply in tourist towns. Its hard to attract chefs when the work is seasonal, and they have to shift location every few months.
So aircraft pilots aren't in short supply then, especially if the pay is low here. Supply and demand, yep take them off the list.
Not really sure what you are saying here, other than another boring, unjustified stab at Mal T.
Apr 19th 2017, 10:12 am
#17
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 484
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Training to be a plumber takes longer than many degrees. And where you have the shortage is in small towns. You can't train them up there, there is no where to train, so they bugger off to get trained and never return. Everyone needs to shit and shower. That's no good if your shitter goes on the blink.
Chefs are in short supply in tourist towns. Its hard to attract chefs when the work is seasonal, and they have to shift location every few months.
So aircraft pilots aren't in short supply then, especially if the pay is low here. Supply and demand, yep take them off the list.
Not really sure what you are saying here, other than another boring, unjustified stab at Mal T.
Chefs are in short supply in tourist towns. Its hard to attract chefs when the work is seasonal, and they have to shift location every few months.
So aircraft pilots aren't in short supply then, especially if the pay is low here. Supply and demand, yep take them off the list.
Not really sure what you are saying here, other than another boring, unjustified stab at Mal T.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:15 am
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Sigh
http://pm1.narvii.com/6173/9736ac112...e4513d1_hq.jpg
Badly thought out, and destructive to workers (both migrants and residents) whilst helping CEOs extract extra profit.
http://pm1.narvii.com/6173/9736ac112...e4513d1_hq.jpg
Badly thought out, and destructive to workers (both migrants and residents) whilst helping CEOs extract extra profit.
CEO's like 457's. Its an opportunity to source cheap labour and if its not cheap, you can source the world for the best skills, rather than your own backyard.
Your targetted attack and hidden agenda is being exposed very quickly.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:25 am
#20
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,900
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Many businesses and governments have run into huge trouble, on the assumption that workers are like popsicle sticks and you can just "upskill" and "develop" people to do complex tasks in short amounts of time if your training staff create the right program.
That being said - Australia is not Nepal, it is a major first-world country that should not need to, as a general rule, import talent unless in areas of absolute shortage.
That is what the 457 program was designed to do - give businesses the option of bringing in foreign workers if no Australian could do the job. It was not designed to allow businesses to hire foreign workers if they could do it better or cheaper than an adequately trained Australian.
The program was abused and I support mandatory labor market testing for all temporary work visas.
That being said - Australia is not Nepal, it is a major first-world country that should not need to, as a general rule, import talent unless in areas of absolute shortage.
That is what the 457 program was designed to do - give businesses the option of bringing in foreign workers if no Australian could do the job. It was not designed to allow businesses to hire foreign workers if they could do it better or cheaper than an adequately trained Australian.
The program was abused and I support mandatory labor market testing for all temporary work visas.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:40 am
#21
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Many businesses and governments have run into huge trouble, on the assumption that workers are like popsicle sticks and you can just "upskill" and "develop" people to do complex tasks in short amounts of time if your training staff create the right program.
That being said - Australia is not Nepal, it is a major first-world country that should not need to, as a general rule, import talent unless in areas of absolute shortage.
That is what the 457 program was designed to do - give businesses the option of bringing in foreign workers if no Australian could do the job. It was not designed to allow businesses to hire foreign workers if they could do it better or cheaper than an adequately trained Australian.
The program was abused and I support mandatory labor market testing for all temporary work visas.
That being said - Australia is not Nepal, it is a major first-world country that should not need to, as a general rule, import talent unless in areas of absolute shortage.
That is what the 457 program was designed to do - give businesses the option of bringing in foreign workers if no Australian could do the job. It was not designed to allow businesses to hire foreign workers if they could do it better or cheaper than an adequately trained Australian.
The program was abused and I support mandatory labor market testing for all temporary work visas.
The current system was in place to support the mining boom. It worked to a degree to suit the need at the time. That said most 457 holders ended up in Melbourne and Sydney but times were good and the system wasn't controlled, it didn't need to be.
Fast forward there is no mining boom and what suited back then needs some tweaking for now.
The tweaks are minor and are structured to suit the purpose of temporary skilled migration.
Its a non issue. Crack on and implement.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:55 am
#22
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 65,493
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Interesting article here.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
It is, of course, a profound act of hypocrisy from Turnbull and the rest of his party. When Julia Gillard started the bashing of foreign workers back in 2013 by making changes to the 457 system, Turnbull, like his colleagues, defended them to the hilt as you’d expect the stout tribunes of the business sector to do. But nearly four years later, the visas have “lost credibility” — even though the Coalition has been in government for all but six months of the intervening period. Moreover, while the system was apparently working sufficiently well in 2013 that there was no need for significant change, it now turns out that Bill Shorten had by that time — at least according to Turnbull — opened the floodgates. It’s all very like the middle-class welfare cuts the Liberals denounced when in opposition — but once in government, they went much further. Or, at least, that’s what they want voters to think.
[Despite scandals, 457s help a changing economy]
In fact, 457 visas have been an important mechanism for the workforce to respond to changing demand patterns — since the Rudd years, construction, mining and health 457s have been replaced with tech sector and hospitality industry 457s as the most common visas, reflecting a changing economy. And, yes, they’ve also been persistently rorted by some employers that have evaded market testing requirements and exploited 457 workers who don’t know their rights, at the expense of Australian workers. What’s needed is a tightening, not the removal, of the temporary worker system and a reversal of the ballooning categories in which visas are allowed.
And, in fact, that’s more or less what the government is aiming for — but under the pretence of abolishing the whole scheme. Call these new visas 754s — different name, same product. A couple of hundred occupations, many apparently cut and pasted from the jobs list for the Golgafrincham “B” ark, have been removed from the long list of applicable jobs. Variety artists. Homeopaths. Judges. IP lawyers. Funeral directors. Dog racing officials. Intelligence officers (!?). But the two sectors currently using 457s the most, tech and hospitality, don’t appear to face significant changes: only a small number of jobs have been removed from the tech industry list; chefs, cooks and restaurant managers remain on the list, as do medical and health occupations — and a huge number of trades positions.
Applicants will need demonstrated experience in the occupation and higher standards of English language proficiency and employers will face “mandatory labour market testing, unless an international obligation applies” and “strengthened requirement for employers to contribute to training Australian workers”. But Tuesday’s announcement was notably light on what exactly the “strengthened requirements” on training would entail, and it said nothing about the fact that labour market testing — already much honoured in the breach rather than the observance — is already “mandatory”.
[Why temporary migration is a permanent thing]
In short, the changes will have minimal effect but will might make it slightly harder for employers to exploit the system. And the renaming will allow the government to claim it has gone one further than Labor — you’ll be hearing the word “abolish” a lot. Business is broadly on board with this approach — although the government won’t thank them for being less than subtle about how this is primarily a renaming of a program that had earned a bad reputation. “An Opportunity To Rebuild Public Confidence,” the Business Council called it, because “the capacity for businesses to hire temporary workers to fill genuine skill shortages has been an overall boon for Australia.” “The 457 visa system was a highly valued program but misunderstandings of its use and exaggerations of its misuse led it to become a lightning rod for anti-migration sentiments,” said Innes Willox, head of employer group AIG. “The temporary skilled visa program should now be considered as settled without the need for further reviews and disruptive policy change.”
The renaming is the first of a series of steps the government will take to cater to populist sentiment within the community, with immigration restrictions set to be further increased. Unlike with 457s, expect the immigration changes to be more substantive. While business supports high immigration, it’s not an issue that directly affects their operations, so the government will have a freer hand to plumb the deepening waters of xenophobia in the electorate.'
Correct or not, it's a point of view.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
It is, of course, a profound act of hypocrisy from Turnbull and the rest of his party. When Julia Gillard started the bashing of foreign workers back in 2013 by making changes to the 457 system, Turnbull, like his colleagues, defended them to the hilt as you’d expect the stout tribunes of the business sector to do. But nearly four years later, the visas have “lost credibility” — even though the Coalition has been in government for all but six months of the intervening period. Moreover, while the system was apparently working sufficiently well in 2013 that there was no need for significant change, it now turns out that Bill Shorten had by that time — at least according to Turnbull — opened the floodgates. It’s all very like the middle-class welfare cuts the Liberals denounced when in opposition — but once in government, they went much further. Or, at least, that’s what they want voters to think.
[Despite scandals, 457s help a changing economy]
In fact, 457 visas have been an important mechanism for the workforce to respond to changing demand patterns — since the Rudd years, construction, mining and health 457s have been replaced with tech sector and hospitality industry 457s as the most common visas, reflecting a changing economy. And, yes, they’ve also been persistently rorted by some employers that have evaded market testing requirements and exploited 457 workers who don’t know their rights, at the expense of Australian workers. What’s needed is a tightening, not the removal, of the temporary worker system and a reversal of the ballooning categories in which visas are allowed.
And, in fact, that’s more or less what the government is aiming for — but under the pretence of abolishing the whole scheme. Call these new visas 754s — different name, same product. A couple of hundred occupations, many apparently cut and pasted from the jobs list for the Golgafrincham “B” ark, have been removed from the long list of applicable jobs. Variety artists. Homeopaths. Judges. IP lawyers. Funeral directors. Dog racing officials. Intelligence officers (!?). But the two sectors currently using 457s the most, tech and hospitality, don’t appear to face significant changes: only a small number of jobs have been removed from the tech industry list; chefs, cooks and restaurant managers remain on the list, as do medical and health occupations — and a huge number of trades positions.
Applicants will need demonstrated experience in the occupation and higher standards of English language proficiency and employers will face “mandatory labour market testing, unless an international obligation applies” and “strengthened requirement for employers to contribute to training Australian workers”. But Tuesday’s announcement was notably light on what exactly the “strengthened requirements” on training would entail, and it said nothing about the fact that labour market testing — already much honoured in the breach rather than the observance — is already “mandatory”.
[Why temporary migration is a permanent thing]
In short, the changes will have minimal effect but will might make it slightly harder for employers to exploit the system. And the renaming will allow the government to claim it has gone one further than Labor — you’ll be hearing the word “abolish” a lot. Business is broadly on board with this approach — although the government won’t thank them for being less than subtle about how this is primarily a renaming of a program that had earned a bad reputation. “An Opportunity To Rebuild Public Confidence,” the Business Council called it, because “the capacity for businesses to hire temporary workers to fill genuine skill shortages has been an overall boon for Australia.” “The 457 visa system was a highly valued program but misunderstandings of its use and exaggerations of its misuse led it to become a lightning rod for anti-migration sentiments,” said Innes Willox, head of employer group AIG. “The temporary skilled visa program should now be considered as settled without the need for further reviews and disruptive policy change.”
The renaming is the first of a series of steps the government will take to cater to populist sentiment within the community, with immigration restrictions set to be further increased. Unlike with 457s, expect the immigration changes to be more substantive. While business supports high immigration, it’s not an issue that directly affects their operations, so the government will have a freer hand to plumb the deepening waters of xenophobia in the electorate.'
Correct or not, it's a point of view.
Apr 19th 2017, 1:00 pm
#23
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Interesting article here.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
It is, of course, a profound act of hypocrisy from Turnbull and the rest of his party. When Julia Gillard started the bashing of foreign workers back in 2013 by making changes to the 457 system, Turnbull, like his colleagues, defended them to the hilt as you’d expect the stout tribunes of the business sector to do. But nearly four years later, the visas have “lost credibility” — even though the Coalition has been in government for all but six months of the intervening period. Moreover, while the system was apparently working sufficiently well in 2013 that there was no need for significant change, it now turns out that Bill Shorten had by that time — at least according to Turnbull — opened the floodgates. It’s all very like the middle-class welfare cuts the Liberals denounced when in opposition — but once in government, they went much further. Or, at least, that’s what they want voters to think.
[Despite scandals, 457s help a changing economy]
In fact, 457 visas have been an important mechanism for the workforce to respond to changing demand patterns — since the Rudd years, construction, mining and health 457s have been replaced with tech sector and hospitality industry 457s as the most common visas, reflecting a changing economy. And, yes, they’ve also been persistently rorted by some employers that have evaded market testing requirements and exploited 457 workers who don’t know their rights, at the expense of Australian workers. What’s needed is a tightening, not the removal, of the temporary worker system and a reversal of the ballooning categories in which visas are allowed.
And, in fact, that’s more or less what the government is aiming for — but under the pretence of abolishing the whole scheme. Call these new visas 754s — different name, same product. A couple of hundred occupations, many apparently cut and pasted from the jobs list for the Golgafrincham “B” ark, have been removed from the long list of applicable jobs. Variety artists. Homeopaths. Judges. IP lawyers. Funeral directors. Dog racing officials. Intelligence officers (!?). But the two sectors currently using 457s the most, tech and hospitality, don’t appear to face significant changes: only a small number of jobs have been removed from the tech industry list; chefs, cooks and restaurant managers remain on the list, as do medical and health occupations — and a huge number of trades positions.
Applicants will need demonstrated experience in the occupation and higher standards of English language proficiency and employers will face “mandatory labour market testing, unless an international obligation applies” and “strengthened requirement for employers to contribute to training Australian workers”. But Tuesday’s announcement was notably light on what exactly the “strengthened requirements” on training would entail, and it said nothing about the fact that labour market testing — already much honoured in the breach rather than the observance — is already “mandatory”.
[Why temporary migration is a permanent thing]
In short, the changes will have minimal effect but will might make it slightly harder for employers to exploit the system. And the renaming will allow the government to claim it has gone one further than Labor — you’ll be hearing the word “abolish” a lot. Business is broadly on board with this approach — although the government won’t thank them for being less than subtle about how this is primarily a renaming of a program that had earned a bad reputation. “An Opportunity To Rebuild Public Confidence,” the Business Council called it, because “the capacity for businesses to hire temporary workers to fill genuine skill shortages has been an overall boon for Australia.” “The 457 visa system was a highly valued program but misunderstandings of its use and exaggerations of its misuse led it to become a lightning rod for anti-migration sentiments,” said Innes Willox, head of employer group AIG. “The temporary skilled visa program should now be considered as settled without the need for further reviews and disruptive policy change.”
The renaming is the first of a series of steps the government will take to cater to populist sentiment within the community, with immigration restrictions set to be further increased. Unlike with 457s, expect the immigration changes to be more substantive. While business supports high immigration, it’s not an issue that directly affects their operations, so the government will have a freer hand to plumb the deepening waters of xenophobia in the electorate.'
Correct or not, it's a point of view.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
It is, of course, a profound act of hypocrisy from Turnbull and the rest of his party. When Julia Gillard started the bashing of foreign workers back in 2013 by making changes to the 457 system, Turnbull, like his colleagues, defended them to the hilt as you’d expect the stout tribunes of the business sector to do. But nearly four years later, the visas have “lost credibility” — even though the Coalition has been in government for all but six months of the intervening period. Moreover, while the system was apparently working sufficiently well in 2013 that there was no need for significant change, it now turns out that Bill Shorten had by that time — at least according to Turnbull — opened the floodgates. It’s all very like the middle-class welfare cuts the Liberals denounced when in opposition — but once in government, they went much further. Or, at least, that’s what they want voters to think.
[Despite scandals, 457s help a changing economy]
In fact, 457 visas have been an important mechanism for the workforce to respond to changing demand patterns — since the Rudd years, construction, mining and health 457s have been replaced with tech sector and hospitality industry 457s as the most common visas, reflecting a changing economy. And, yes, they’ve also been persistently rorted by some employers that have evaded market testing requirements and exploited 457 workers who don’t know their rights, at the expense of Australian workers. What’s needed is a tightening, not the removal, of the temporary worker system and a reversal of the ballooning categories in which visas are allowed.
And, in fact, that’s more or less what the government is aiming for — but under the pretence of abolishing the whole scheme. Call these new visas 754s — different name, same product. A couple of hundred occupations, many apparently cut and pasted from the jobs list for the Golgafrincham “B” ark, have been removed from the long list of applicable jobs. Variety artists. Homeopaths. Judges. IP lawyers. Funeral directors. Dog racing officials. Intelligence officers (!?). But the two sectors currently using 457s the most, tech and hospitality, don’t appear to face significant changes: only a small number of jobs have been removed from the tech industry list; chefs, cooks and restaurant managers remain on the list, as do medical and health occupations — and a huge number of trades positions.
Applicants will need demonstrated experience in the occupation and higher standards of English language proficiency and employers will face “mandatory labour market testing, unless an international obligation applies” and “strengthened requirement for employers to contribute to training Australian workers”. But Tuesday’s announcement was notably light on what exactly the “strengthened requirements” on training would entail, and it said nothing about the fact that labour market testing — already much honoured in the breach rather than the observance — is already “mandatory”.
[Why temporary migration is a permanent thing]
In short, the changes will have minimal effect but will might make it slightly harder for employers to exploit the system. And the renaming will allow the government to claim it has gone one further than Labor — you’ll be hearing the word “abolish” a lot. Business is broadly on board with this approach — although the government won’t thank them for being less than subtle about how this is primarily a renaming of a program that had earned a bad reputation. “An Opportunity To Rebuild Public Confidence,” the Business Council called it, because “the capacity for businesses to hire temporary workers to fill genuine skill shortages has been an overall boon for Australia.” “The 457 visa system was a highly valued program but misunderstandings of its use and exaggerations of its misuse led it to become a lightning rod for anti-migration sentiments,” said Innes Willox, head of employer group AIG. “The temporary skilled visa program should now be considered as settled without the need for further reviews and disruptive policy change.”
The renaming is the first of a series of steps the government will take to cater to populist sentiment within the community, with immigration restrictions set to be further increased. Unlike with 457s, expect the immigration changes to be more substantive. While business supports high immigration, it’s not an issue that directly affects their operations, so the government will have a freer hand to plumb the deepening waters of xenophobia in the electorate.'
Correct or not, it's a point of view.
Apr 19th 2017, 8:59 pm
#24
Just Joined
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Do we have any solid info of skills they will still allow in just the same?
I was planning on Melbourne as a Network engineer. Network Engineers were on the list of skills to be given visas without Jobs or sponsership. ( i'm v new to all this and don't recall the category it fell in, just that it was the top one)
Also just joined forum on the back of all this happening. Hi all
I was planning on Melbourne as a Network engineer. Network Engineers were on the list of skills to be given visas without Jobs or sponsership. ( i'm v new to all this and don't recall the category it fell in, just that it was the top one)
Also just joined forum on the back of all this happening. Hi all
Last edited by Paullehh; Apr 19th 2017 at 9:01 pm.
Apr 19th 2017, 9:02 pm
#25
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Do we have any solid info of skills they will still allow in just the same?
I was planning on Melbourne as a Network engineer. Network Engineers were on the list of skills to be given visas without Jobs or sponsership. ( i'm v new to all this and don't recall the category it fell in, just that it was the top one)
Also just joined forum on the back of all this happening. Hi all
I was planning on Melbourne as a Network engineer. Network Engineers were on the list of skills to be given visas without Jobs or sponsership. ( i'm v new to all this and don't recall the category it fell in, just that it was the top one)
Also just joined forum on the back of all this happening. Hi all
Apr 19th 2017, 11:19 pm
#27
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Interesting article here.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
'If you’re going to hit the panic button, it helps if that button actually achieves something and does it effectively. What’s surprising about yesterday’s 457 visa “abolition” announcement from the government is that it stands a relatively good chance of achieving its political goal, while having minimal impact on the economy.
Bill Shorten claims 77pc of 457 visa workers excluded from checks thanks to FTAs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
BTW I've changed my mind. I don't think there's necessarily a set of bad employment figures coming through. With this, and the new citizenship changes just announced, I think he's just playing up to the far right racist wing prior to the budget coming out - which looks to be really bad (who knew you can't cut your way to greatness). He needs something to cover his back from the storm of knives that will arrive otherwise. It's noticeable that Dutton, the chief pretender to the throne, was included in this little charade.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:24 pm
#28
Account Closed
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 0
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Oh dear, another day, another gaping hole. According to Labor, the FTA agreements that the coalition have been in such a hurry to sign will mean 77% of 457s will be waved through without any market testing - which pretty much invalidates this whole sorry mess.
Bill Shorten claims 77pc of 457 visa workers excluded from checks thanks to FTAs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
BTW I've changed my mind. I don't think there's necessarily a set of bad employment figures coming through. With this, and the new citizenship changes just announced, I think he's just playing up to the far right racist wing prior to the budget coming out - which looks to be really bad (who knew you can't cut your way to greatness). He needs something to cover his back from the storm of knives that will arrive otherwise. It's noticeable that Dutton, the chief pretender to the throne, was included in this little charade.
Bill Shorten claims 77pc of 457 visa workers excluded from checks thanks to FTAs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
BTW I've changed my mind. I don't think there's necessarily a set of bad employment figures coming through. With this, and the new citizenship changes just announced, I think he's just playing up to the far right racist wing prior to the budget coming out - which looks to be really bad (who knew you can't cut your way to greatness). He needs something to cover his back from the storm of knives that will arrive otherwise. It's noticeable that Dutton, the chief pretender to the throne, was included in this little charade.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:33 pm
#29
Account Closed
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 0
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Sigh
http://pm1.narvii.com/6173/9736ac112...e4513d1_hq.jpg
Badly thought out, and destructive to workers (both migrants and residents) whilst helping CEOs extract extra profit.
http://pm1.narvii.com/6173/9736ac112...e4513d1_hq.jpg
Badly thought out, and destructive to workers (both migrants and residents) whilst helping CEOs extract extra profit.
Apr 19th 2017, 11:40 pm
#30
Account Closed
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 0
Re: 457 visa scrapped
Training to be a plumber takes longer than many degrees. And where you have the shortage is in small towns. You can't train them up there, there is no where to train, so they bugger off to get trained and never return. Everyone needs to shit and shower. That's no good if your shitter goes on the blink.