Zimbabwe - what future??
Apr 4th 2008, 4:56 pm
#91
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Posts: 1,424
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Show me where, specifically, someone in this thread practiced the racism
you stated.
.
or apologise for your outburst.
In answer to your question, Yes, I do believe all races are born equal.
Leigh of the valley,I dont do personal if I can help it, and the quality of your comments I personally found offensive and think you should be removed from this board.
Just my .02c worth.
Apr 4th 2008, 9:23 pm
#92
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Posts: 313
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
I'm scared to jump in to be honest, but LOTV and PG, you've gotta be the same person, no? Inflammatory, insulting, (dare I say, IMHO ill-informed), bloody hell, could you bang on about racism just a little bit more... actually, no don't. Next time I see your names on a thread, I'm gonna fetch my bargepole, because as an onlooker I find your posts quite deranged and disturbing.
Newshoney I really enjoy your posts and I think you are very brave, but please take care, you've been extremely lucky to encounter only goodwill. Respect.
Newshoney I really enjoy your posts and I think you are very brave, but please take care, you've been extremely lucky to encounter only goodwill. Respect.
Apr 4th 2008, 10:59 pm
#94
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Not specifically that time actually!! but come on, he took a step back and responded quite sensibly to Tigers post and you had a go at him for it!!
Back to the thread - what future for Zimbabwe?
And TigerOC's first post does suggest that because TIA all black leaders are bound to be despots and kleptocrats which is offensive... and not just because Botswana and Mauritius are the obvious exceptions.
I fail to see why, if the best-case scenario unfolds for the current situation and there is a peaceful regime change, Zimbabwe cannot make progress. Morgan Tsvangirai was derided by Mugabe for his lack of education as a political strategy to undermine him. He doesn't need to be a genius: after 9 years MT has shown sufficient courage and political nous to merit his turn at the helm.
Further, lack of intelligence/education have proved no bar to leaders in the so-called developed world. Just look at George Bush or even Ronald Reagan -president while suffering from Alzheimer's. The trick surely is to deploy the right people in the right jobs. So far MT has promised to form a government of national unity. It's suggested he'll put Dabengwa in as VP, Makoni as Finance Minister and so on... more importantly he intends this parliament to become a constitutional assembly.
You may sneer from afar, but there are millions of Zimbabweans (black, brown and white) who want to give him a chance. It's up to them to vote him out if he doesn't deliver. I have met or talked to a good number of people who want to go back and re-invest provided they see enough change to guarantee the restoration of the rule of law (to include guarantees for property rights etc.).
Zimbabwe is a beautiful country with huge potential. The day after the election I was with a white Zim friend checking the blue results sheets at Strathaven where six hungry, thirsty policemen and women were spending the day sitting in the shade of the polling tent, guarding the results. My friend asked them what they thought was going to happen, would we (i.e. whites) be safe?
They smiled, reassured us "We are all Zimbabweans, we are in this together my sister. Never fear."
And TigerOC's first post does suggest that because TIA all black leaders are bound to be despots and kleptocrats which is offensive... and not just because Botswana and Mauritius are the obvious exceptions.
I fail to see why, if the best-case scenario unfolds for the current situation and there is a peaceful regime change, Zimbabwe cannot make progress. Morgan Tsvangirai was derided by Mugabe for his lack of education as a political strategy to undermine him. He doesn't need to be a genius: after 9 years MT has shown sufficient courage and political nous to merit his turn at the helm.
Further, lack of intelligence/education have proved no bar to leaders in the so-called developed world. Just look at George Bush or even Ronald Reagan -president while suffering from Alzheimer's. The trick surely is to deploy the right people in the right jobs. So far MT has promised to form a government of national unity. It's suggested he'll put Dabengwa in as VP, Makoni as Finance Minister and so on... more importantly he intends this parliament to become a constitutional assembly.
You may sneer from afar, but there are millions of Zimbabweans (black, brown and white) who want to give him a chance. It's up to them to vote him out if he doesn't deliver. I have met or talked to a good number of people who want to go back and re-invest provided they see enough change to guarantee the restoration of the rule of law (to include guarantees for property rights etc.).
Zimbabwe is a beautiful country with huge potential. The day after the election I was with a white Zim friend checking the blue results sheets at Strathaven where six hungry, thirsty policemen and women were spending the day sitting in the shade of the polling tent, guarding the results. My friend asked them what they thought was going to happen, would we (i.e. whites) be safe?
They smiled, reassured us "We are all Zimbabweans, we are in this together my sister. Never fear."
You are right in that many in Zim really want to give Tsvangirai a chance. yes, there are some concerns. How he went about not standing in the Senate elections a few years back and there have been a few instances of people from his side of the party who have attacked Mutambara's. Overall though, most see him as quite genuine and someone who obviously has a love for Zimbabwe.
Forming a government with some of the moderates from Zanu PF will be acceptable to all sides. Experience and it will also appease the militants in both parties. We'll just have to see whether thats possible.
The reaction you got from the Police is to be honest quite typical of the rank and file. They all have families who are suffering as well so empathise with everyone else.
Thanks Newshoney for bringing some sanity back into the thread.
I am a long time professional association politician and know full well that throwing controversial statements in at the beginning is going to elicit perhaps some insightful thoughts. That's why i do it. it would be boring otherwise.
Mugabe has been so ruthlessly efficient is his masking of the MDC that they have always fought a war to survive never mind give us any idea what they can present. I am interested to hear your comments on the ground. I am still very sceptical (through historical events in Africa) that the MDC isn't just another smoke and mirrors operation.
I knew the newly elected Pres of Botswana fairly well many years ago. He is a similar age to me and went to private schools in Bulawayo and we played age group cricket against each other over a period of about 6 years. He was fine young man when I knew him and I am sure he will continue to improve Botswana's status in Africa and the world. Botswana was fortunate to have been isolated in the rough and tumble of emerging Africa as it had nothing to offer anyone at the time except desert and swamps. I remember it as a desperately poor country. My outstanding memory was the railway station at Palape where the parents used to deliberately mame their children in order to beg from passing trains. We used buy curios and nagapies there when we passed through as varsity students.
I am a long time professional association politician and know full well that throwing controversial statements in at the beginning is going to elicit perhaps some insightful thoughts. That's why i do it. it would be boring otherwise.
Mugabe has been so ruthlessly efficient is his masking of the MDC that they have always fought a war to survive never mind give us any idea what they can present. I am interested to hear your comments on the ground. I am still very sceptical (through historical events in Africa) that the MDC isn't just another smoke and mirrors operation.
I knew the newly elected Pres of Botswana fairly well many years ago. He is a similar age to me and went to private schools in Bulawayo and we played age group cricket against each other over a period of about 6 years. He was fine young man when I knew him and I am sure he will continue to improve Botswana's status in Africa and the world. Botswana was fortunate to have been isolated in the rough and tumble of emerging Africa as it had nothing to offer anyone at the time except desert and swamps. I remember it as a desperately poor country. My outstanding memory was the railway station at Palape where the parents used to deliberately mame their children in order to beg from passing trains. We used buy curios and nagapies there when we passed through as varsity students.
I don't understand your comment. Why has Newshoney been "extremely lucky to encounter only goodwill". On the ground in Zim you will be very unlucky to encounter anyone who will be nasty to you. From the Police to a shop assistant.
Apr 4th 2008, 11:02 pm
#95
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 42
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Some of you folks out there seem extremely surprised when different viewpoints are expressed.
Now some are wondering if two posters could be one person just because perhaps, "their opinions divert too much from the usual norms", "we are not used to that kind of thinking". Its as if a crime has been committed. Guess what? everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this forum!
And to Daxk, I do admit I got a little passionate and put you down to the level of Pablo! I don't think you are on that level and can understand why felt the indignation and anger. Your posts indicate that you are nice and reasonable person, However, I still don't think you read Pablo's other posts. If you do, you will understand where I was coming from.
Now some are wondering if two posters could be one person just because perhaps, "their opinions divert too much from the usual norms", "we are not used to that kind of thinking". Its as if a crime has been committed. Guess what? everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this forum!
And to Daxk, I do admit I got a little passionate and put you down to the level of Pablo! I don't think you are on that level and can understand why felt the indignation and anger. Your posts indicate that you are nice and reasonable person, However, I still don't think you read Pablo's other posts. If you do, you will understand where I was coming from.
Apr 4th 2008, 11:10 pm
#96
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 42
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
To say something about the current topic, I really wish well to all Zimbabweans who are all over the world. To have to leave your country and settle into an unfamiliar one, away from all you hold dear, has got to be the hardest thing ever. I hope this can be the start of the new dawn.
Apr 4th 2008, 11:28 pm
#97
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Posts: 1,424
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Leigh of the Vallei:"Your posts indicate that you are nice and reasonable person, However, I still don't think you read Pablo's other posts."
Leigh, you are once again assuming.
You made some statements.accusations.apart from accusing someone of child abuse, racism comes a close second.
You have called me a reasonable man, I assure you I am.
Justify and prove your statements or apologise.
If you look at my profile again, you will see that I have been here for long enough to have read numerous posts from lots of people.
This is the first time I have felt the need to challenge.
PGTip will be the second, I have also asked "it" to justify accusations of rape
and hate speech.
Sofar it's silence.
Leigh, you are once again assuming.
You made some statements.accusations.apart from accusing someone of child abuse, racism comes a close second.
You have called me a reasonable man, I assure you I am.
Justify and prove your statements or apologise.
If you look at my profile again, you will see that I have been here for long enough to have read numerous posts from lots of people.
This is the first time I have felt the need to challenge.
PGTip will be the second, I have also asked "it" to justify accusations of rape
and hate speech.
Sofar it's silence.
Apr 5th 2008, 12:03 am
#98
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 42
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Leigh of the Vallei:"Your posts indicate that you are nice and reasonable person, However, I still don't think you read Pablo's other posts."
Leigh, you are once again assuming.
You made some statements.accusations.apart from accusing someone of child abuse, racism comes a close second.
You have called me a reasonable man, I assure you I am.
Justify and prove your statements or apologise.
If you look at my profile again, you will see that I have been here for long enough to have read numerous posts from lots of people.
This is the first time I have felt the need to challenge.
PGTip will be the second, I have also asked "it" to justify accusations of rape
and hate speech.
Sofar it's silence.
Leigh, you are once again assuming.
You made some statements.accusations.apart from accusing someone of child abuse, racism comes a close second.
You have called me a reasonable man, I assure you I am.
Justify and prove your statements or apologise.
If you look at my profile again, you will see that I have been here for long enough to have read numerous posts from lots of people.
This is the first time I have felt the need to challenge.
PGTip will be the second, I have also asked "it" to justify accusations of rape
and hate speech.
Sofar it's silence.
As for PGTips, he/she is also entitled to own opinions as well (I also demand you apologise for calling him or her it!) and thats that. This is forum so you cannot expect everyone to agree with you.
Apr 5th 2008, 5:55 am
#99
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
I think you've got it wrong (again).
Different viewpoints are not the problem.
I don't agree with some of the statements made by, for example Newshoney, or the poster who referred to his smallholding etc, etc. However you need to get your facts straight. You obviously don't. Co-incidentally, nor does PGtips.
It takes one line, perhaps all of 10 seconds to apologise to Daxk. You don't have it in you, but boy, o boy- do you expect admissions and apologies form everyone else.
Its called being a hypocrite mate
Preach on brother, but get your facts straight or be prepared to be challenged on them.
ps. I left the forum because I couldn't be bothered with all this crap, but pathetic posts like yours and PGTips are crazy. Please stop so I can leave
Different viewpoints are not the problem.
I don't agree with some of the statements made by, for example Newshoney, or the poster who referred to his smallholding etc, etc. However you need to get your facts straight. You obviously don't. Co-incidentally, nor does PGtips.
It takes one line, perhaps all of 10 seconds to apologise to Daxk. You don't have it in you, but boy, o boy- do you expect admissions and apologies form everyone else.
Its called being a hypocrite mate
Preach on brother, but get your facts straight or be prepared to be challenged on them.
ps. I left the forum because I couldn't be bothered with all this crap, but pathetic posts like yours and PGTips are crazy. Please stop so I can leave
Apr 5th 2008, 6:36 am
#100
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
In the wink of an eye that smile can become pure evil.
(this is mostly true in reference to various comments about the friendly cops).
From what I can tell, thats all she's saying.
Obviously being a used car salesman or running a touristy business in vic falls or whatever line you're in, has protected you from the unpredictability of africa.
While you may have moved there to make money and marry a local (in whichever order that was), I was born, raised and regulary visit the place, so please don't respond and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or insult me with references to being a 'rhodie'.
This is virtually exactly what mugabe said on independance day and several times during the next decade to assure whites of their place as (white africans) in zimbabwe (I was there in uniform).
In a wink of an eye, mate.
(this is mostly true in reference to various comments about the friendly cops).
From what I can tell, thats all she's saying.
Obviously being a used car salesman or running a touristy business in vic falls or whatever line you're in, has protected you from the unpredictability of africa.
While you may have moved there to make money and marry a local (in whichever order that was
), I was born, raised and regulary visit the place, so please don't respond and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or insult me with references to being a 'rhodie'.
They smiled, reassured us "We are all Zimbabweans, we are in this together my sister. Never fear."
In a wink of an eye, mate.
Apr 5th 2008, 7:56 am
#101
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
... and put you down to the level of Pablo! I don't think you are on that level and can understand why felt the indignation and anger. Your posts indicate that you are nice and reasonable person, However, I still don't think you read Pablo's other posts. If you do, you will understand where I was coming from.
To be frank, your attacks are too ridiculous to offend. You are unable to point to anything I have said that you object to, because there isn't anything. But rather than face up to that fact, you just go ranting on. Any fool can scream "racist" and "fascist" and "commie". But a slogan is not an argument.
You seem to be irked that I will not assent to your absurd capitalised slogan that "Everyone is equal". Well I will not, because it is manifestly untrue. I would not assent to a lie to please the supporters of apartheid, and I sure as hell am not going to assent to a lie merely to please the likes of you. The great irony is that you, and they, are so very, very similar.
If you are too lazy, or too stupid, to think about what you are saying, that's your lookout. But don't expect me to participate in your ignorance.
Last edited by Pablo; Apr 5th 2008 at 8:02 am.
Apr 5th 2008, 8:09 am
#102
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
In the wink of an eye that smile can become pure evil.
(this is mostly true in reference to various comments about the friendly cops).
From what I can tell, thats all she's saying.
Obviously being a used car salesman or running a touristy business in vic falls or whatever line you're in, has protected you from the unpredictability of africa.
While you may have moved there to make money and marry a local (in whichever order that was), I was born, raised and regulary visit the place, so please don't respond and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or insult me with references to being a 'rhodie'.
This is virtually exactly what mugabe said on independance day and several times during the next decade to assure whites of their place as (white africans) in zimbabwe (I was there in uniform).
In a wink of an eye, mate.
(this is mostly true in reference to various comments about the friendly cops).
From what I can tell, thats all she's saying.
Obviously being a used car salesman or running a touristy business in vic falls or whatever line you're in, has protected you from the unpredictability of africa.
While you may have moved there to make money and marry a local (in whichever order that was
), I was born, raised and regulary visit the place, so please don't respond and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or insult me with references to being a 'rhodie'.This is virtually exactly what mugabe said on independance day and several times during the next decade to assure whites of their place as (white africans) in zimbabwe (I was there in uniform).
In a wink of an eye, mate.
Obviously everyone goes to live where they live purely for the money..........
In Harare actually so not a tourist enclave and I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences, but I wasn't responding to you, nor called you a Rhodie. So quit insinuating and trying to get a rise to take the thread off topic. I have called one person a Rhodie on here who I see has since deleted her account. And if you "regulary" visit the place its pity you feel the way you do about it.
Apr 5th 2008, 9:00 am
#104
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
Clearly...since I quoted you (unlike your unclear negative references to posters) 
.
Many do, but then they don't sugarcoat their environment to the extent that it is misleading and irresponsible.
Personally I view the term Rhodie with affection. However it has a different meaning now, so therefore I don't associate myself with the new meaning.
No such intention.
Bully 
And what way is that?- your tone suggests negative. It's completely the opposite, but always tempered by the reality that is zimbabwe......read my lips: no sugarcoating pal.
. And what way is that?- your tone suggests negative. It's completely the opposite, but always tempered by the reality that is zimbabwe......read my lips: no sugarcoating pal.
Apr 5th 2008, 11:29 am
#105
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,424
Re: Zimbabwe - what future??
I've no knowledge wether PGTip is Male,Female or a Company as the website attached is advertising a number of services.
Thinking about it, PGTip may well be a Charismatic Church.
So do not see that I have maligned PGTip .
Yet...
Thinking about it, PGTip may well be a Charismatic Church.
So do not see that I have maligned PGTip .
Yet...
Last edited by Daxk; Apr 5th 2008 at 11:31 am. Reason: spelling