Visiting Zimbabwe

Old Mar 17th 2008, 4:19 am
  #46  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Yep, all hunky dory and happy whilst the nationals struggle for survival.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 9:40 am
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Tegwyn, I very much admire your posts which bring a lot of information to this forum. You are absolutely right to point out that Zimbabwe has been cruelly and criminally reduced to an economic basket case by an incompetent, paranoid and dicatatorial regime. The rule of law and human rights come second to political expediency and there are countless documented cases of individual suffering and misery. None of us dispute that.

But Rick b is right too: most people will not encounter problems unless they are activists who then will attract unwelcome attention and are likely to be dealt with in an inhumane and ruthless way with complete disregard for the rule of law.

The vast majority of Zimbabweans (about 9m out of 13m) still live in their homeland and go about their lives as best they can. When disaster hits, what do you do? Not everyone has somewhere else to run to. Or can afford that option. So they stay put "at home", making the best of it, or finding ingenious ways to survive in spite of everything.

The miraculous thing about Zim is that so many people are so good-natured, cheerful and kind in spite of everything they have to put up with. In one sense, it makes the situation even more newsworthy and more poignant if someone like me counterpoints the good against the bad.

There is a debate about whether it is morally right to visit Zimbabwe under Comrade Bob - I met tourists in Livingstone, Zambia, who would not cross the bridge into VF because they didn't want to subsidise his regime by a single dollar. But for those who do go, they should know as much as possible, not just one version of the truth. Would you agree?
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 9:56 am
  #48  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by newshoney

There is a debate about whether it is morally right to visit Zimbabwe under Comrade Bob - I met tourists in Livingstone, Zambia, who would not cross the bridge into VF because they didn't want to subsidise his regime by a single dollar. But for those who do go, they should know as much as possible, not just one version of the truth. Would you agree?

Tegwyn, we know your point of view - from someone who is not in Zimbabwe. Do you not think that if someone wants to visit Zimbabwe they should be able to hear points of view from people like newshoney who went to Zimbabwe recently, or from someone who lives and works there?

There have been some awful cases of human rights abuses. But as I said - unless you are intending to draw attention to yourself, anyone visiting Zimbabwe will not have a problem.

I personally think it's a shame that tourists are not entering Zimbabwe. Many don't realise that it is very safe, there are some fantastic tourist sites and it is a very easy going country for tourists. Yes, Uncle Bob gets a percentage of your money from visas and tax's - but it also goes to local business's who employ staff who have families. There is always the argument of where do sanctions hurt the most. I think in Zimbabwe tourists staying away hurt the general population the worst rather than the Government.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 10:15 am
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Or how about from someone like me who has childhood friends over there and hears the truth from them and not what they want some journo to hear?

The truth is that people want to leave, but many can't. The place has fallen apart and millions are suffering.

My friends spend their time actively searching for something to eat. They've quit their jobs because the rate of inflation was more than they were getting paid and are busy doing black market trade in order to survive. I am talking quite a few of them, not one or two.

THAT is the reality of life in Zims - and what the regular folk are going through. They want to leave but can't - their brother and I are working on ways to get them out, but it is a long slog.

Originally Posted by Rick b
Tegwyn, we know your point of view - from someone who is not in Zimbabwe. Do you not think that if someone wants to visit Zimbabwe they should be able to hear points of view from people like newshoney who went to Zimbabwe recently, or from someone who lives and works there?

There have been some awful cases of human rights abuses. But as I said - unless you are intending to draw attention to yourself, anyone visiting Zimbabwe will not have a problem.

I personally think it's a shame that tourists are not entering Zimbabwe. Many don't realise that it is very safe, there are some fantastic tourist sites and it is a very easy going country for tourists. Yes, Uncle Bob gets a percentage of your money from visas and tax's - but it also goes to local business's who employ staff who have families. There is always the argument of where do sanctions hurt the most. I think in Zimbabwe tourists staying away hurt the general population the worst rather than the Government.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 10:23 am
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by Redlippie
Or how about from someone like me who has childhood friends over there and hears the truth from them and not what they want some journo to hear?

The truth is that people want to leave, but many can't. The place has fallen apart and millions are suffering.

My friends spend their time actively searching for something to eat. They've quit their jobs because the rate of inflation was more than they were getting paid and are busy doing black market trade in order to survive. I am talking quite a few of them, not one or two.

THAT is the reality of life in Zims - and what the regular folk are going through. They want to leave but can't - their brother and I are working on ways to get them out, but it is a long slog.
If you are so sure then I know quite a few people who are looking for workers both skilled and unskilled. Feel free to send me their details and what they did before. I know there are many who are without work but there are also many still opening business's and looking for employee's.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 10:30 am
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Right - with pay that keeps up with inflation?

Pull the other one mate - that's the reason why they quit their extremely well paid jobs - in the old days that was. Couldn't keep up with inflation.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 10:30 am
  #52  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

A thorny issue for sure.

If you asked those people who risk their lives by actively looking at ways to change the government they will tell you that every bit of pressure helps. These days some of the truly downtrodden will have had enough and joined these ranks.

If you ask many others, their answer would be that its best to lie low and wait it out.

It does seem a tad unfair on the people who are trying desperately to bring about change, if your circumstances are such that you can swan around in relative luxury while in reality everything has nearly burnt to the ground.

I do know some very wealthy people there. I also know some with their backs to the wall.

As usual in life, 'moral' behaviour right now in zimbabwe is a direct measure of how full or empty that glass actually is.

Its safe as long as you don't say anything- that I can agree with. But isn't that exactly why the dictator is still there?

Anyway- I have no answers- these are just thoughts.

Originally Posted by Rick b
Tegwyn, we know your point of view - from someone who is not in Zimbabwe. Do you not think that if someone wants to visit Zimbabwe they should be able to hear points of view from people like newshoney who went to Zimbabwe recently, or from someone who lives and works there?

There have been some awful cases of human rights abuses. But as I said - unless you are intending to draw attention to yourself, anyone visiting Zimbabwe will not have a problem.

I personally think it's a shame that tourists are not entering Zimbabwe. Many don't realise that it is very safe, there are some fantastic tourist sites and it is a very easy going country for tourists. Yes, Uncle Bob gets a percentage of your money from visas and tax's - but it also goes to local business's who employ staff who have families. There is always the argument of where do sanctions hurt the most. I think in Zimbabwe tourists staying away hurt the general population the worst rather than the Government.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 10:33 am
  #53  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

a wee bit risky perhaps

Do we know you?

Originally Posted by Rick b
Feel free to send me their details and what they did before.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 11:12 am
  #54  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by shiftdelete
a wee bit risky perhaps

Do we know you?
Fair point - don't send me their details. I could be a Government employee. Honestly, never send any details on the internet - it is too dangerous.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 11:15 am
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by Redlippie
Right - with pay that keeps up with inflation?

Pull the other one mate - that's the reason why they quit their extremely well paid jobs - in the old days that was. Couldn't keep up with inflation.
I don't think you quite understand the whole inflation thing do you? As prices go up, obviously rates go up accordingly and with that pay goes up. If employers didn't keep pay in line with the Black Market rate for the US$ and food prices do you really think anything would happen in Zimbabwe!! Come off it and use your common sense instead of your blatant propaganda. There is spouting your opinion and then there is just plain lying and being stupid. You are verging on the latter. Most employers keep pay matched to the dollar rate which is how prices are rated.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 12:06 pm
  #56  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

ok...perhaps I'm stupid too .....so you get paid, then go to the bank to draw some money a week later-how much I wonder is it worth after a week?

I suppose you get paid and then immediately buy as much as you can- got it , sorry.

Originally Posted by Rick b
I don't think you quite understand the whole inflation thing do you? As prices go up, obviously rates go up accordingly and with that pay goes up. If employers didn't keep pay in line with the Black Market rate for the US$ and food prices do you really think anything would happen in Zimbabwe!! Come off it and use your common sense instead of your blatant propaganda. There is spouting your opinion and then there is just plain lying and being stupid. You are verging on the latter. Most employers keep pay matched to the dollar rate which is how prices are rated.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by shiftdelete
ok...perhaps I'm stupid too .....so you get paid, then go to the bank to draw some money a week later-how much I wonder is it worth after a week?

I suppose you get paid and then immediately buy as much as you can- got it , sorry.
Not at all. It is not being stupid if you don't know how things are done because you are not there. What is stupid is to assume and tell people things are done a certain way, when actually you don't know.........

In basic terms:

I pay my staff once a week . They buy what they need with regards to food and goods that day, then change the remainder into US$ and so they have it in forex where they are not losing anything. As they need money to buy goods they change a little bit at a time.

No one holds money in Zim$ - they change it into forex and use it when they need to. Yes it is annoying, no it should not be normal. However doing it does not mean that everyone is unable to buy anything, unable to earn anything and unable to survive. We have adapted to the circumstances.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 1:41 pm
  #58  
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Thanks for explaining....is that legal...and is it ok to stash forex away for a rainier day?

Well with the conversion rate I guess its at least something (official or unofficial).

Originally Posted by Rick b
Not at all. It is not being stupid if you don't know how things are done because you are not there. What is stupid is to assume and tell people things are done a certain way, when actually you don't know.........

In basic terms:

I pay my staff once a week . They buy what they need with regards to food and goods that day, then change the remainder into US$ and so they have it in forex where they are not losing anything. As they need money to buy goods they change a little bit at a time.

No one holds money in Zim$ - they change it into forex and use it when they need to. Yes it is annoying, no it should not be normal. However doing it does not mean that everyone is unable to buy anything, unable to earn anything and unable to survive. We have adapted to the circumstances.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by shiftdelete
Thanks for explaining....is that legal...and is it ok to stash forex away for a rainier day?

Well with the conversion rate I guess its at least something (official or unofficial).
It is not legal, but is widely done. Most people deal in forex when talking prices for stuff other than day to day groceries as quite simply the figures are too high to think about. So prices are agreed in US$ and then when it comes to payment, it's done at the black market rate of the day of payment either in cash or bank transfer. Really and truly it isn't actually that hard once everyone got to grips with it.

Many employers will do things like instead of paying cash, but goods, food etc for employee's which is preferable to those employee's who earn less as the employer buys the food or goods in bulk which means the employee's get more for their wage than they would do if they got it in cash. Everyone is trying to help and people have just got used to it.

When I say it isn't difficult it's simply because once you get in a routine of doing something a certain way, it becomes quite easy.
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Old Mar 17th 2008, 2:18 pm
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Default Re: Visiting Zimbabwe

Originally Posted by Rick b
I don't think you quite understand the whole inflation thing do you? As prices go up, obviously rates go up accordingly and with that pay goes up. If employers didn't keep pay in line with the Black Market rate for the US$ and food prices do you really think anything would happen in Zimbabwe!! Come off it and use your common sense instead of your blatant propaganda. There is spouting your opinion and then there is just plain lying and being stupid. You are verging on the latter. Most employers keep pay matched to the dollar rate which is how prices are rated.
Your comments are insulting, especially from a tourism operator that has a self-serving interest in selling his version of propaganda to generate more revenue. RL is from Zimbabwe. Still has some near and dear living there, so please take your condescending attitude and shove it. You are clearly revealing your bias and losing your credibility very fast.
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