Sudan

Old May 9th 2009, 7:56 am
  #61  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by Tegwyn
Okay JR enough of this pissing match. You will find your time on this site extremely short if you insist on personal insults.
Correct
Personal comments / insults, especially based on huge assumptions, are not tolorated so please desist JR
Can I point you to site rules 1 and 4

1. BritishExpats.com is an interactive site, and everyone who participates is "in it together", please treat others the way you wish to be treated. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult or personal attack.
4. Trolling on this site is not tolerated. We define trolling as any inflammatory threads or posts that are started with the sole intent of upsetting or antagonizing other members. Anyone found making such posts will be removed from the forums.
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Old May 9th 2009, 10:34 am
  #62  
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Default Re: Sudan

[QUOTE=shiftdelete;7555718]Interesting..

Have you been to zimbabwe?

what are these global realities you refer to?

do you think only "pink noses" as you put it, are civilised?[QUOTE]

Zimbabwe? Yes. Twice in my passport through Harare. Some work along the border near Chicualacuala had me in Zim more than my passport reflects though.

Global realities:

War - Afghanistan from Jan 06 to Nov 08. Eight of my friends killed.

Post war cleanup - Bosnia, Cambodia, Mozambique, Timor Leste

Drugs, smuggling (drugs, weapons, people, you name it) - most places.

Endemic Disease - most places.

Poverty - most places.

'Pink noses' and 'civilized nations' came from Pablo; his linkage. I'd love to see what his definition of 'civilized nations' and 'our pink noses' is.

Last edited by JR230898; May 9th 2009 at 10:38 am.
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Old May 9th 2009, 11:07 am
  #63  
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Default Re: Sudan

Oh very well, let’s look at this hunt-the-racist nonsense for what it is.

The original poster began with the question of child abduction and child slavery in Sudan. That is the issue. Bear it in mind. Because our hunt-the-racist Witchfinder General, Mr JR, has done his best to cloud the issue in his subsequent posts.

Now civilized people are quite rightly affronted by this child abduction and slavery. But that is not enough for our Mr JR. He has to find a way somehow to blame *not* the perpetrators, but what he calls the “developed world.” So he jumps in with the irrelevant:

“the hypocrisy of people in the developed world will never be fully realized. Look at the attention that was paid to Madeleine”

So I asked him how much attention was paid to Madelaine in Sudan, and I speculated that it was probably very little.

So let’s deal with this point first. A British girl disappears during the kind of holiday taken by a typical British family, going to a typical British holiday destination. It is little wonder that this elicits a great deal of media interest in Britain, and it is little wonder that the distraught parents do their best to maximise the publicity. But this isn’t sufficient for our hunt-the-racist campaigner. He has to condemn this as “hypocrisy.”

Now let’s look at the next point. What are civilized people expected to do with Sudan? Intervene? If so, how? Hence my point, quoting Mugabe when the West, and specifically Britain, dared to complain about what he was doing in Zimbabwe, that Blair and his “homosexual cabinet” should keep its “pink noses” out. This is a common response from Africa when other places in the world try to intervene. African solutions to African problems. Except Mugabe spelled it out more bluntly.

Now this sends our Witchfinder General into a paroxysm of rage, as if I had made some claim about White supremacy, and he launches into a series of wild and irrelevant insults, calling me racist and accusing me of “yearning for Colonial days”. Then on and on he goes, post after post.

Eventually he demands, ludicrously, that I “come back and tell us how slavery was always better organised when it was under colonial rule.” as if I had ever made such a stupid claim.

To which I responded: “Actually I think the British, anyway, tried to stamp it out when they had any say in the matter.” Which seems a pretty uncontroversial statement to make. When the British ruled parts of Africa, British law applied there, and during that time slavery was illegal. It was probably true for e.g., French ruled parts of Africa too. I don’t know for sure.

Yet this comment sent our racism-hunter into a frenzy. Probably because what I said was true.

So he goes hunting around for an example of an injustice committed by the British government. He latches on to Diego Garcia, and tries to pretend, by a shameful abuse of logic, that this is an example of slavery.

Now our racism-campaigner has got it into his head, quite wrongly, that I am some sort of defender of anything and everything British. So he insists, again and again, that I “justify” this Diego Garcia episode. And off he goes with another tirade of insults.

I tell him then that “I have no interest in trying to justify it. Why should I?”

But because our Witchfinder is convinced that I am some sort of pro-Britain fanatic and White Supremacist, this comment fails to compute. So he demands that I :

“Now....step up to the plate...and defend the indefensible.” He wants me to defend the Diego Garcia episode. Or perhaps he wants me to defend slavery. And then more ridiculous insults and taunts ensue.

Later I suspect it dawns on Mr JR that he has made rather a mess of things. But he hopes that, by now, people will have forgotten the original subject, namely child abduction and slavery in Sudan.

But rather than drop the matter, he starts claiming, absurdly, that I have said that “Civilized nations have pink noses.”

By now it’s pretty clear to me the type of self-serving nonsense we’re dealing with, and I back off. But no. On and on continue the taunts, coupled with the completely irrelevant demand that I make some sort of pronouncement on the Diego Garcia episode. When I say nothing more, this is taken by our Witchfinder as evidence for my supposed racism.

So then there follow some more fabrications by our Witch Finder:

“Is it that you are unable to be critical of the British....a...as you term it, a 'pink nosed civilized nation'?”
“Pablo would attempt describe me in his narrow subjective way as being 'pink nosed' and from a 'civilized nation'.”
“Pablo would describe my father as having an 'off-brown' nose”
“I wonder how he would label our autistic son? It'd probably depend on whether he has a 'brown' or 'pink' nose”

plus various demands that I come back and answer his “question.” What that “question” is seems to vary to suit his mood. He makes up comments and pretends they’re mine, and then demands that I answer those made-up comments.

Like many race-hustlers, he clearly has difficulty with the word “civilized”, yet uses it when it suits his argument, if you can call this farrago an argument.

What we have here with this latter-day witch hunter, just as with those mediaeval witch hunters, is somebody who has formed his conclusion first, and then goes hunting for the evidence afterwards. And just as with those witch hunters, any evidence will do, however irrelevant.

And I am expected to answer this nonsense?
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Old May 9th 2009, 1:03 pm
  #64  
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Default Re: Sudan

Interesting..

- so you know the situation in zimbabwe- yet in all your posts (until a defensive reference late in this thread), complete silence from you about the situation in zimbabwe.......astounding.

you said: Work and travel has bought me in contact with many global realities. Most of which are never encountered, or contemplated, in many of the 'pink nosed civilized nations'. you see the problem I have is that this is now your reference to a certain tribe (if you will)- nothing to do with Pablo- you are referring to pink nosed civilisations to advance your own argument.

Although 3 of your 5 global realities occur "in most places" (somewhat of a contradiction) why is it that you reckon most of these problems are not encountered in most "pink nosed civilisations", as you put it?

Is it not directly related to good governance, rule of law, accountability, discipline etc, pink nosed civilisation or not?

Of course you may now start a rant about the financial crisis , and I would agree with you on many points.

Back on to the topic about slave labour and your assertion that we should not limit these crimes to Sudan. Agreed- but don't then turn around and imply that there are these 'global realities', the cause of which you are trying to link up with those nasty pink nosed civilisations.

Or to be more blunt: White people are forcing (eh... black) mozambiquans to kill their babies by dissection or boiling them in a pot, to be eaten in an orgy of stupidity.




Originally Posted by JR230898
Originally Posted by shiftdelete
Interesting..

Have you been to zimbabwe?

what are these global realities you refer to?

do you think only "pink noses" as you put it, are civilised?
Zimbabwe? Yes. Twice in my passport through Harare. Some work along the border near Chicualacuala had me in Zim more than my passport reflects though.

Global realities:

War - Afghanistan from Jan 06 to Nov 08. Eight of my friends killed.

Post war cleanup - Bosnia, Cambodia, Mozambique, Timor Leste

Drugs, smuggling (drugs, weapons, people, you name it) - most places.

Endemic Disease - most places.

Poverty - most places.

'Pink noses' and 'civilized nations' came from Pablo; his linkage. I'd love to see what his definition of 'civilized nations' and 'our pink noses' is.
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Old May 9th 2009, 2:22 pm
  #65  
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Default Re: Sudan

Once again, I stated that JR has anger issues. He needs to address his own issues than trying desperately to redirect them towards "ignorant" people. A closer look in the mirror may well help. Jeepers, enough of this stuff already. ps. I actually like the word bunching bag, it's a friendlier version.
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Old May 10th 2009, 7:24 am
  #66  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by Pablo
Oh very well, let’s look at this hunt-the-racist nonsense for what it is.

The original poster began with the question of child abduction and child slavery in Sudan. That is the issue. Bear it in mind. Because our hunt-the-racist Witchfinder General, Mr JR, has done his best to cloud the issue in his subsequent posts.

Now civilized people are quite rightly affronted by this child abduction and slavery. But that is not enough for our Mr JR. He has to find a way somehow to blame *not* the perpetrators, but what he calls the “developed world.” So he jumps in with the irrelevant:

“the hypocrisy of people in the developed world will never be fully realized. Look at the attention that was paid to Madeleine”

So I asked him how much attention was paid to Madelaine in Sudan, and I speculated that it was probably very little.

So let’s deal with this point first. A British girl disappears during the kind of holiday taken by a typical British family, going to a typical British holiday destination. It is little wonder that this elicits a great deal of media interest in Britain, and it is little wonder that the distraught parents do their best to maximise the publicity. But this isn’t sufficient for our hunt-the-racist campaigner. He has to condemn this as “hypocrisy.”

Now let’s look at the next point. What are civilized people expected to do with Sudan? Intervene? If so, how? Hence my point, quoting Mugabe when the West, and specifically Britain, dared to complain about what he was doing in Zimbabwe, that Blair and his “homosexual cabinet” should keep its “pink noses” out. This is a common response from Africa when other places in the world try to intervene. African solutions to African problems. Except Mugabe spelled it out more bluntly.

Now this sends our Witchfinder General into a paroxysm of rage, as if I had made some claim about White supremacy, and he launches into a series of wild and irrelevant insults, calling me racist and accusing me of “yearning for Colonial days”. Then on and on he goes, post after post.

Eventually he demands, ludicrously, that I “come back and tell us how slavery was always better organised when it was under colonial rule.” as if I had ever made such a stupid claim.

To which I responded: “Actually I think the British, anyway, tried to stamp it out when they had any say in the matter.” Which seems a pretty uncontroversial statement to make. When the British ruled parts of Africa, British law applied there, and during that time slavery was illegal. It was probably true for e.g., French ruled parts of Africa too. I don’t know for sure.

Yet this comment sent our racism-hunter into a frenzy. Probably because what I said was true.

So he goes hunting around for an example of an injustice committed by the British government. He latches on to Diego Garcia, and tries to pretend, by a shameful abuse of logic, that this is an example of slavery.

Now our racism-campaigner has got it into his head, quite wrongly, that I am some sort of defender of anything and everything British. So he insists, again and again, that I “justify” this Diego Garcia episode. And off he goes with another tirade of insults.

I tell him then that “I have no interest in trying to justify it. Why should I?”

But because our Witchfinder is convinced that I am some sort of pro-Britain fanatic and White Supremacist, this comment fails to compute. So he demands that I :

“Now....step up to the plate...and defend the indefensible.” He wants me to defend the Diego Garcia episode. Or perhaps he wants me to defend slavery. And then more ridiculous insults and taunts ensue.

Later I suspect it dawns on Mr JR that he has made rather a mess of things. But he hopes that, by now, people will have forgotten the original subject, namely child abduction and slavery in Sudan.

But rather than drop the matter, he starts claiming, absurdly, that I have said that “Civilized nations have pink noses.”

By now it’s pretty clear to me the type of self-serving nonsense we’re dealing with, and I back off. But no. On and on continue the taunts, coupled with the completely irrelevant demand that I make some sort of pronouncement on the Diego Garcia episode. When I say nothing more, this is taken by our Witchfinder as evidence for my supposed racism.

So then there follow some more fabrications by our Witch Finder:

“Is it that you are unable to be critical of the British....a...as you term it, a 'pink nosed civilized nation'?”
“Pablo would attempt describe me in his narrow subjective way as being 'pink nosed' and from a 'civilized nation'.”
“Pablo would describe my father as having an 'off-brown' nose”
“I wonder how he would label our autistic son? It'd probably depend on whether he has a 'brown' or 'pink' nose”

plus various demands that I come back and answer his “question.” What that “question” is seems to vary to suit his mood. He makes up comments and pretends they’re mine, and then demands that I answer those made-up comments.

Like many race-hustlers, he clearly has difficulty with the word “civilized”, yet uses it when it suits his argument, if you can call this farrago an argument.

What we have here with this latter-day witch hunter, just as with those mediaeval witch hunters, is somebody who has formed his conclusion first, and then goes hunting for the evidence afterwards. And just as with those witch hunters, any evidence will do, however irrelevant.

And I am expected to answer this nonsense?
Dear Pablo,

Sorry to have made you feel so affronted. Thanks for your reply, in which I have now been promoted to 'Witchfinder General'...does that come with a carpark?

One point,....witches are generally described as being female. Are you a big girl?

My further apologies for not being able to fully dissect and refute your posted reply. After going to so much trouble, you deserve to be stood up again. Unable to spend the time to do so today, as I am currently packing to fly. Maybe I'll have the time while transiting through O.R. Tambo's airport...no promises though.

Regards,

JR

P.S. Thanks for 'farrago'..you have added to my vocabulary....an open mind can learn at every opportunity.

Talking about 'open minds'....What is your opinion as to how the Chagos people have been treated by the British Government? Do you think their mass removal from their homelands was just? If you feel this is too confronting an issue for you to consider and respond to, please tell me. I am trying to work on my sensitivity.
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Old May 10th 2009, 7:49 am
  #67  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by JR230898
Do you think their mass removal from their homelands was just? ... I am trying to work on my sensitivity.
No. See my post above.
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Old May 10th 2009, 10:32 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Sudan

JR,I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one.

A few questions if I may?
What exactly does Diego Garcia have to do with either Sudan or Child slavery?
If Nothing, kindly dont repeat the attempts at justification you already have.
I happen to know Mocambique particularly well.
The people who are practicing "tata mamae ,tata Papae" for whatever purpose, what Nationality are they?
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Old May 11th 2009, 1:32 pm
  #69  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by Daxk
JR,I've been sitting on the sidelines on this one.

A few questions if I may?
What exactly does Diego Garcia have to do with either Sudan or Child slavery?
If Nothing, kindly dont repeat the attempts at justification you already have.
I happen to know Mocambique particularly well.
The people who are practicing "tata mamae ,tata Papae" for whatever purpose, what Nationality are they?
Dear Daxk, asking a closed question like that might suggest you have already closed your mind?

Why don't you at the same time ask Pablo why he thinks, according to his words below, 'civilized nations have pink noses'?...and, what that has to do with Sudan and Child Slavery.

The usual response when civilized nations start intefering in Africa is to keep our "pink noses out" (as Mugabe says).
Você conhece Mozambique bem, aquele é bom! Entao, os perpertradores usuais dos crimes são africanos sul.

Under Portuguese rule, you'd probably know there was a labour arrangement with the South Africans and WENLA used to move Mozambican men to the mines from the region south of the Rio Save. The people of Magude still speak of the children who were kidnapped and moved complicit with that system.

Then, the next threat was the stealing of children by RENAMO when it was being sponsored by either the Rhodesians or South Africans. Just now reading a Phd thesis which draws comment to the influence over RENAMO by the South African military, from information gained from South African Military Archives. It is interesting what 'civilized nations' will resort to.

Since then, the human trafficking, particularly in children, has continued in the main, to be toward Johannesburg for the sex trade. A number of ex SAP Officers working with me in Afghanistan were able to relate some stories about what they knew. Europeans have been found in Mozambique, as in much of Asia, targetting children for the production of pornography.

I am travelling for the next couple of days so, if you can be patient, and I'll be able to read and respond to replies.
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Old May 11th 2009, 3:29 pm
  #70  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by JR230898
I am travelling for the next couple of days so, if you can be patient, and I'll be able to read and respond to replies.
Oh no. How will I manage the next few days without the next thrilling installment?

I can't wait to read how even this post makes ME a colonial slavery-supporting racist too.
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Old May 11th 2009, 6:03 pm
  #71  
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Default Re: Sudan

You're damned Ed, in fact we all are.
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Old May 11th 2009, 8:58 pm
  #72  
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Default Re: Sudan

Shees!!

"Você conhece Mozambique bem, aquele é bom! Entao, os perpertradores usuais dos crimes são africanos sul. "
at this insult my first immediate response was to say Wai Foder,Senhor but then I realised that although I spent much of my formative life in Mocambique from 1963 to 1976 my spelling and my manners would be off.

I would agree with you that there are South Arican Criminals, everywhere,but to say that Crime in Mocambique is usually performed by South Africans is tantamount to my saying that the consensus of opinion is that most Criminal gangs in Jhbg tend to have either a Mocambican or Zimbabwean element or I may be bit biased as two of the little bunch who who were in my house and discussing wether they should or should'nt while holding a gun to my wifes head was a bit stressfull at the time.
They probaly did'nt realise this particular whitey Comprehende Moe'te Bien

Fortunately,my experience of Mocambican, Angolan and lately Brazilian friends/employees/maids and gardeners prevented me from making the generalisations you do.

As to the mines and WENLA ,the recruitment agents were Mocambican/Portuguese and they must have been very well built children to pass the induction and health tests held by the Chamber of Mines.

I never got to Rio Save area, Beira was a bit short of that, I did witness an "interview" recruitment day in Maxixe one day,it reminded me later of the parabat tests we had to pass at the infantry regiments before going for selection, and there were a lot of 16 year old,very fit kids applying to go to Egoldi, Mocambique was a pretty poor Country and the only real paying work seemed to be on the Mines.

I travelled on the Buses a number of times, and there were always returning Miners, young, well built men, with that easy arrogance of having broadened their minds and money in their pockets returning Home.

Because they HAD to.

the mines contract was of fixed term.
it was the Mines (Chamber of Mines ) responsibility to bring them to the mines, train them,teach them to read, teach them to speak a Lingua Franca called Fanagolo, House them (agreed Hostels were'nt great, neither were any of the barracks I spent time in) feed them a balanced diet and I have never seen ANYONE eat as much as those guys could,
Their working hours per week as well as the night shift rotation were strictly controlled.

If they got hurt or became ill they were treated and hospitalised and at the end of their term (two years if I recall) they were returned to whichever village they were recruited from.
And if they were killed or incapicitated there was a pension.
I know as I helped quite a few open accounts at the banco de Maritime do Mocambique.

That sort of blows that urban legend out of the water.

Where it could have happened was with Algos who supplied seasonal labour to fruit farms in the Eastern Transvaal to pick and pack Fruit.
Unfortunately, Child labour is very difficult to track unless you can catch them in the act.

As to the Sex trade, yep, agreed,all Nationalities have sold their own into slavery in the past,present and future.
And abusers seem to come from all races too, go figure!

Now to the fun ones!!!

Child Soldiers have been a fact of life since BCE.

armies have pressganged(abducted) cannon fodder into the ranks From time immemorial.

It only became wrong when Children were awarded rights (What do you think of the Childrens Crusade against Islam?)

The difference is that as recent as 1914 there was a minimum age restriction.

Did'nt always help Google Privates Lugg, Lewis (12 at the battle of the Somme) and Cornwall who won a VC at age 14.
They all lied about their age.
as did my Father who served his 16th Birthday as a SA soldier in Cairo.

And there have always been abductions,your visits to Kampuchea ,Bosnia and Afghanistan should have told you that, Renamo must have, the ANC did, Swapo certainly did, I chased 12 of them who had lifted 70 kids for three days, they kept on raping the youngest and leaving them breathing for us to find and slow down.

Robbie Burns 's Mans inhumanity to man makes thousands mourn is true for all Nations, so why the sudden Naivete?

PS: I think Diego Garcia deserves a thread all of its own so you can open this closed little mind of mine.
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Old May 13th 2009, 8:11 am
  #73  
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Default Re: Sudan

Originally Posted by Daxk
Shees!!

"Você conhece Mozambique bem, aquele é bom! Entao, os perpertradores usuais dos crimes são africanos sul. "
at this insult my first immediate response was to say Wai Foder,Senhor but then I realised that although I spent much of my formative life in Mocambique from 1963 to 1976 my spelling and my manners would be off.
O Senhor!! é pa!! That was a compliment...LOL..not an insult!

I would agree with you that there are South Arican Criminals, everywhere,but to say that Crime in Mocambique is usually performed by South Africans is tantamount to my saying that the consensus of opinion is that most Criminal gangs in Jhbg tend to have either a Mocambican or Zimbabwean element or I may be bit biased as two of the little bunch who who were in my house and discussing wether they should or should'nt while holding a gun to my wifes head was a bit stressfull at the time.
They probaly did'nt realise this particular whitey Comprehende Moe'te Bien

(Compreendi muito bem – comprehended very well....you do well for having been out of the language for such a long time.)
Yes. I can agree and I should have said, that the outcome of the crime ended up mainly in South Africa. I am only talking of southern Mozambique and mainly of Maputo. Who knows what happens further north. Organised crime certainly recognises no international border and brings together people of all creeds and ilk. Just as an example, when you are in Maputo next time and, if you change your money in any of the multitude of Cambios’, note how many are manned by Pakistanis...most of them are Pakistani owned....the boys there are cleaning their money.


Fortunately,my experience of Mocambican, Angolan and lately Brazilian friends/employees/maids and gardeners prevented me from making the generalisations you do.

Are you generalizing about me generalizing?

As to the mines and WENLA ,the recruitment agents were Mocambican/Portuguese and they must have been very well built children to pass the induction and health tests held by the Chamber of Mines.

I never got to Rio Save area, Beira was a bit short of that, I did witness an "interview" recruitment day in Maxixe one day,it reminded me later of the parabat tests we had to pass at the infantry regiments before going for selection, and there were a lot of 16 year old,very fit kids applying to go to Egoldi, Mocambique was a pretty poor Country and the only real paying work seemed to be on the Mines.

I travelled on the Buses a number of times, and there were always returning Miners, young, well built men, with that easy arrogance of having broadened their minds and money in their pockets returning Home.

Because they HAD to.

the mines contract was of fixed term.
it was the Mines (Chamber of Mines ) responsibility to bring them to the mines, train them,teach them to read, teach them to speak a Lingua Franca called Fanagolo, House them (agreed Hostels were'nt great, neither were any of the barracks I spent time in) feed them a balanced diet and I have never seen ANYONE eat as much as those guys could,
Their working hours per week as well as the night shift rotation were strictly controlled.

If they got hurt or became ill they were treated and hospitalised and at the end of their term (two years if I recall) they were returned to whichever village they were recruited from.
And if they were killed or incapicitated there was a pension.
I know as I helped quite a few open accounts at the banco de Maritime do Mocambique.

Daxk, I've not been able to attach the article I wanted here so I, unfortunately, have to just attach the article title and abstract. I hope you can look it up for yourself...available on Google Scholar:
Permanent disability in black mineworkers. A critical analysis. by
Leger JP; Arkles RS

Department of National Health and Population Development, Johannesburg.
South African Medical Journal = Suid-Afrikaanse Tydskrif Vir Geneeskunde [S Afr Med J] 1989 Nov 18; Vol. 76 (10), pp. 557-61.

Two-thirds of all occupational permanent disabilities among black workers in South Africa occur in the mining industry. Comparison of compensated permanent disability cases shows that the incidence of permanent disability among black mineworkers is several times higher than that in any other South African industry. Most permanent disabilities sustained in mining fall into the category of 1-5% disability. Trends in the incidence of permanent disability are examined and compensation for disabled black mineworkers is investigated. The basis of workers' compensation legislation involves workers giving up their common-law right to litigate for losses owing to occupational injuries (including pain and suffering) in exchange for guaranteed protection against income losses. However, the evidence suggests that compensation generally does not redress income loss. Most disabled black miners receive compensation payments that are lower than poverty datum levels and high rates of inflation rapidly erode their real value. Since many black workers are repatriated after a disabling accident, the issue of employment becomes crucial. The problems highlighted suggest that compensation legislation requires reform to ameliorate the difficulties faced by disabled black miners and recommendations are made.


That sort of blows that urban legend (about adequate compensation)out of the water.

Where it could have happened was with Algos who supplied seasonal labour to fruit farms in the Eastern Transvaal to pick and pack Fruit.
Unfortunately, Child labour is very difficult to track unless you can catch them in the act.

I appreciate your account of the WENLA system and I understand it is made of your perspective. My father-in-law, and two of his brothers, relate a grittier story...you don’t seem to have seen much of the violence they relate.
My relatives at Magude identify the time of WENLA as a period of time where there was the kidnapping of children. You maybe right, it could have been associated with the agricultural industry but, it was not seasonal; the kids went missing and did not return. Then, when the sponsored labour migration (WENLA) ceased, things changed. Hence, their attribution, and perception will always be, unless it can be proven otherwise.


As to the Sex trade, yep, agreed,all Nationalities have sold their own into slavery in the past,present and future.
And abusers seem to come from all races too, go figure!

Mmm...something to do with a primal urge? Might have to go back and consult with Pablo and see if having a ‘pink nose and being from a civilized nation’ has delivered any immunity to the ‘urge’ as yet?

Now to the fun ones!!!

Child Soldiers have been a fact of life since BCE.

armies have pressganged(abducted) cannon fodder into the ranks From time immemorial.

It only became wrong when Children were awarded rights (What do you think of the Childrens Crusade against Islam?)

Interesting....

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/Chu...nsCrusade.aspx

The difference is that as recent as 1914 there was a minimum age restriction.

Did'nt always help Google Privates Lugg, Lewis (12 at the battle of the Somme) and Cornwall who won a VC at age 14.
They all lied about their age. Volunteers.
as did my Father who served his 16th Birthday as a SA soldier in Cairo. Volunteered?

The undying excitement of youth. I hope they found whatever it was they were looking for.

And there have always been abductions,your visits to Kampuchea ,Bosnia and Afghanistan should have told you that, Renamo must have, the ANC did, Swapo certainly did, I chased 12 of them who had lifted 70 kids for three days, they kept on raping the youngest and leaving them breathing for us to find and slow down.

Robbie Burns 's Mans inhumanity to man makes thousands mourn is true for all Nations, so why the sudden Naivete?

Naivete? As in...? I am not naive to the realities of how children are exploited globally....are you referring to the limiting of my reply to Mozambique..as you asked?
Yes. The stealing and use of children has, and still happens, globally. Your comments above about ‘child soldiers’ seem to have a mainly male reference. As you no doubt know, ‘RENAMO et al’ stole/steal both genders and used them for very different purposes. My wife has a female cousin who was seized in a RENAMO raid on Xinavane during 1983, she was 11, repeatedly raped, and used as a porter. She survived and came back with 3 children. We can only imagine what she was subjected to.


PS: I think Diego Garcia deserves a thread all of its own so you can open this closed little mind of mine.
Cheers,

JR230898

Last edited by JR230898; May 13th 2009 at 8:13 am.
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Old May 14th 2009, 3:16 pm
  #74  
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Default Re: Sudan

Do any of you think the new conscription law (military service alternative) in Mozambique will indeed be abused to funnel discounted labour to mines and agribusiness there? I think I understand the scepticism.
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Old May 14th 2009, 4:05 pm
  #75  
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Default Re: Sudan

JR
"Are you generalizing about me generalizing?"
No, Commenting on how people I have come to know on a one to one basis has saved me from making sweeping generalisations,

"Most disabled black miners receive compensation payments that are lower than poverty datum levels and high rates of inflation rapidly erode their real value. Since many black workers are repatriated after a disabling accident, the issue of employment becomes crucial. The problems highlighted suggest that compensation legislation requires reform to ameliorate the difficulties faced by disabled black miners and recommendations are made."

All South African Disablement and old age Pensions fall below the poverty datum line.
I mentioned that I helped set up bank accounts for some of the widows in Mocambique.
(Only because I understood English better than my friend the Bank manager
and the conditions were usually in English.)

Purely as an aside and still relevant at my last 6 week Holiday in 2004,
Mocambican cost of living was noticeably lower than South African ones, not that I am defending, I very much doubt that 20 year old pensions had increased by much.
But,if I were living on a meagre pittance,I'd rather do it in Inhambane province than Gauteng anyday.

The undying excitement of youth. I hope they found whatever it was they were looking for.
They seemed to die as well as the next man.

As you no doubt know, ‘RENAMO et al’ stole/steal both genders and used them for very different purposes. My wife has a female cousin who was seized in a RENAMO raid on Xinavane during 1983, she was 11, repeatedly raped, and used as a porter. She survived and came back with 3 children. We can only imagine what she was subjected to.

No where did I state that it was only males,in fact the ones they left for me were mostly female, they beaten the kindergarten to death on the first night.

And your previous comment was that because SA and Rhodesia had supported RENAMO with material and training, they were somehow at fault.?

Does that somehow put the Soviet Bloc,China, Libya, Cuba on a higher moral ground as the sides they supported in all conflicts in Africa did (and still do) abduct and indoctrinate Children, boys and girls, the girls obviously have more value than the boys.
Rape has happened as a course of war since time immemorial, its terrible,inhumane and you have as much hope of stopping it as the pope has of stopping a Saturday Night Bonk before marriage.

(As an aside,I am rather glad a Prussian soldier raped an Austrian girl in 1724,
I've rather enjoyed living and being or is that just finding a silver lining to a dark cloud)

Salud.
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