Pablo

You rather miss the point.

Pablo

Campbells

That is your point, which to me seems like just go and try South Africa, what you gotta lose.

My point is:

Your life……….

Pablo

What has prompted this pointless exchange is that I picked you up on your rudeness and aggression some time ago and you didn't like it.

I have made my views on moving to SA perfectly clear many times.

So do just drop it.

Pablo

Rick b

Long time reader but never joined before and posted..................

As someone who spends 3-4 months of the year in Harare, I'd almost suggest someone move there than S.A the descriptions you give it..............

From your posts (as well as 3 or 4 others on here that reply to every S.A. post) it's obvious that you have disdain for everything African and everything to do with modern South Africa. Although your experiences are obviously unpleasant you have a rather large tendecy to be patronising, insulting and overly aggressively rude (wow thats bad grammer!) to anyone considering South Africa as a destination or asking questions about the country.

Personally I don't see the need. Yes, we all know anyone can look up "crime in South Africa" on google. Or "land seizures in Zimbabwe" if they wanted to by a farm in Zim. But many people on here are just trying to get simple info and facts from people who could well help them. Yet you decide to constantly pull out the same stuff again and again most of the time completly ignoring their questions!!!

Come on, people come here to ask questions, read about peoples circumstances - not to get a barrage of doom and gloom that they can get from reading any news source. I doubt the poster that started this thread is 16 and blissfully unaware there is crime in S.A.
You constantly link to that damm website about J'Burg which has some of the most racist comments on it e.g. "There is hope for S.A. - it's called Aids" and never have any positive to offer. Perhaps maybee people looking to have questions answered don't really need your input............

Many friends of mine HAVE had crime issues, however they still continue to live there because of the lifestyle, because of the weather and because maybe a lot of them own business's.

To the poster that started this thread, one of Campbells favourite analagy's is to say that someone earning £1000 in the UK per month needs 15,000 Rand. Well that takes no account that the cost of living is far lower in S.A. than in the UK. On 15,000 Rand you can get a mortgage to buy a house, you certainly can't do that anywhere in the UK.........................

There are many postives and many negatives about living in S.A. or even Zimbabwe.

Campbells

So instead of joining up to have a go at me why don’t you contribute to the forum and add value by posting the positives about Zimbabwe and South Africa.

So why don’t your counter that by writing polite positive posts and informing people of everything to do with the modern Africa ?

Simply because the violent slaughter that it going on in modern Africa happens again & again & again & again. If I am ignoring their questions it is the opportunity for you to get off the side lines and step right up and offer your positive views of modern Africa.

My posts are not just about experience and information from “just" news sources. I lived there and got out.

Show me where I constantly link to that website ? Perhaps you should offer your input instead of having a go at me. Your tactics are the just the same as Mugabe, beat up the opposition. Mate I thought Africa was about freedom of speech & human rights ? Besides you say you have been a long-time reader. Why didn’t you do something before this and offer your positive input.


Both my wife and I ran our own businesses in SA. Now I understand your positive contribution to the thread. The lifestyle and weather. Weather I will grant you but lifestyle SUCKS ………………. Because you are constantly looking over your shoulder to see if you are going to get killed or raped.

I would say that R 15 k and you can buy a house is crap. What value house , flat, bed-sit are you talking about and where ? The cost of living in South Africa is crazy and a lot of it is spent on insurance, health and security related.

In your wisdom can you explain why a young white couple in the UK with basic skills are going to survive in SA where there is all the racial preferencing employment programmes there? There is 40% unemployment in SA and 80% in Zim. The chances of a Brit getting a Visa to work in SA are slim.

Are you going to tell me that there isn’t a constant reference to colonials and elite whites in the media all over Africa that has the racial undertones.

My point:
You seem to forget that the media in South Africa and Zimbabwe is CONTROLLED and censored. WHY ?


PS: Congrats on your post number 1 let's see if you can add value and offer positive input now that you have joined the forum. Lots of single digit posters here mate and they all pretty much say what you have just said but they just never seem to keep posting. Let's hope you do as it would be awsome to get members from Africa ( BTW where are you based?) offering a solid contribution.

whalewatcher

I can't say I agree with you there. I recently took all our household bills here in Cape Town for the month, put them in a spreadsheet and then found the equivalent prices for the UK via the web. This was for council bills, cellphones, groceries etc. At the exchange rate prevailing at the time SA was only marginally cheaper than the UK.

Granted the recent house price inflation in the UK is a major outgoing, but given the lower salaries here in SA the cost of living is probably higher than the UK, comparatively.

I do agree with the main point of your post though. All these grim SA stories don't seem to be posted by British expats, but by SA ones, so this isn't really the right corner of the internet for this stuff.

Rick b

No need to get so defensive. The reason I posted what I did was simply because of your attitude to other people who write on here they are thinking of going to S.A.

I don't generally have a lot of time to post on message boards. Work, travelling etc. Thats why I look at say 2 or 3 on subjects that interest me but rarely post.

Perhaps you didn't notice the name of this website when you joined? It's called British ExPats. Thats people from Britain who have moved abroad.

You have a bias as you lived under a government that was white controlled and made things easy for the white inhabitants. You didn't like it when things changed and left. Do you really think therefore you are the best to offer an unbiased view of Africa? I ask you that sincerely.

Others try and offer positives, they try to offer different points of view. However much of the time that I have seen conversations involving you they give up as you brow beat them.

You are like a 15 year old playground bully at times. Just look at your response to Pablo above my first comment. He was trying to answer the posters question, and made the point you are rude and agressive. He was trying to make a point and you responded in almost childlike fashion that you have your life to lose.

You lived there, you got out. Great. It doesn't mean you have to brow beat everyone who has the idea of going there. You obviously had a bad time there and didn't like it. My experience of South Africa and Zimbabwe is different - yet you don't let different opinions get spoken.

You ask me to answer questions with positives - whats the point, you trundle out the same stuff again and again and you obviously must be doing well for yourself where ever you are as you have much more time to post than I would.........................

Just a simple search of Souh Africa threads proves my point. In this thread the guy just wanted to ask about serviced apartments and you went on and on about murder rates etc etc.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435915

As Mugabe? Oh - you must recognise it as you see those tactice in the mirror every morning.

No, I think it's important to have both sides of the coin being told. However, you are someone who others feel they can't stand up to as you have this aggressive rude attitude whenever anyone challanges you. As is shown in your post to me.



Ah, so you both ran nice profitable business and now the new laws dictate that you have to have a percentage of blacks in the company. Which meant you had to give something back to the paradise you took for granted. You musr be bitter to have your easy life taken away....................

The simple fact is that if you are security aware (and this IS important, I would never try and down play it) you can take out 90% of the risk. I wouldn't walk in some area's at night in London, why would I in any other city?


Take away the typical tourism area's of Cape Town and Jo'Burg where the prices are very high and on £12,000 (which is what I said) you can get a mortgage just as easily in any other country. Now if you want a place where it IS impossible to buy unless you are very well off - come to London.

You give the same answers to qualified engineers only a few months ago so don't lets believe you actually thought about what they did for a living. Instead mention about how much it costs to set up a business, what the investment criteria is etc etc.

You and I and anyone else in Africa know that stats like unemployment are not worth the paper they are written on. Many many people work for cash in Africa that are not a part of these figures. Don't lets spin it. If you have the money to set up a business then getting a visa is relatively easy. Three friends have done so (two with backpacker style accomadation on Garden route and one industry based business in Grahamstown). All have been successful, love the lifestyle and although are very security aware, have not had any problems that were unexpected or specific to S.A.

Well if you want Zimbabwe as an example, most people use the State Herald for other uses than reading the news.........................

Well Zim it's obvious why it's controlled. He is a dictator and free press would crush him. Although I will say quite comfortably that whatever the problems in Zimbabwe at the moment, (of which there is a lot of hope for change) it IS safer there crime wise than S.A. from mine and friends experiences.

Perhaps they never keep posting as you bully them into not doing so or they don't have as much spare time on their hands as you obviously do................

I believe in my first post I said I spend 3-4 months of the year in Harare - the rest is spent mostly in London, sometimes in Berlin. I am in London at present, next in Harare on June 1st.

TouristTrap

At least we've all lived in S.A. Since you haven't, you don't know what life there is truly like. You're comparing it to Zimbabwe, which is a paradise - crime wise - even today, when seen in the light of S.A.'s crime.

We did not run away because of a black government vs white government situation. So please don't try and play the racist bigot card around here. Most of us stuck it out for years under the ANC. When the CRIME situation got out of control, and we feared for both ours and our children's lives, a very REAL threat wherever you live in S.A., is when we got out. There are thousands of black South Africans accepting jobs all over the world every year, because of the crime situation. Are they racists too?

Maybe you aren't aware, but the reality of BEE is that you give over CONTROL of your company, the one you built up, to ensure continuing profitable contracts. Would you do it? Give over controlling interest in a company you spent years building up?

Trying to play the racist card will get you nowhere jack.

Rick b

Hmmmmmm, funny how you pick up on one sentance which was by no means the main point of my post and try and portray that I was calling Campbell racist................................

So lets get down to facts then, apologies if these have been given out before - I have missed them. Where are you know and when did you leave and how long has Campbell been in New Zealand?

Oh, you say "even today" re Zim. I was under the impression (from reading this forum in the past) you left in the 1980's after independence........yet so many others stayed - was there a reason other than the country was being ruled by a Black Government that you went to another white ruled country? (that was said just to let you be at ease that I am solely playing the race card as it is obviously the only conversation you want to have on the subject..............)

The economic reality of S.A. is that in many countries, people with specific skills will earn more there than in S.A. Hence people leave whatever the colour of their skin. With regards to business's - are you really telling me that many South African business's that were solely owned by Whites were not built up on the back of more or less slave labour, complete disregard of basic employment laws for Blacks. Profits were made that would not of been there had there been freedom and equality. In Zim from Independance until 1999 there was an African country which showed that Whites and Blacks could easily co-exist in Africa, both make profits and continue having a strong economy. Unfortunatly Mugabe did possibly the stupidist thing he could in destroying the farming sector, which had a knock on effect to almost every other industry. Land had to be re-distributed, but he and his cronies have made a complete mess of it. However in the cities, there are still business's running as they did and having no problems.

TouristTrap

All I am saying is that you have not lived in S.A. for any period of time, therefore you are not able to guage to what depth the crime situation ( which is the main factor driving South Africans of all hues away from the country), affects people's day to day lives.

As to your insinuations re: racist bigot, do not even go there.

Rick b

So you are there no are you? It's just that you managed to avoid answering all the questions I put to you.

Tegwyn

The only thing Rick and I agree on is that Campbell does come across as very aggressive. That's about where it ends. Oh, and I am British with a vast amount of experience within the African life in Zims, Zambia, a bit of Kenya and S.A. What can we say about the racist regime Rick, the British can pat themselves on the back for colonizing all those foreign countries and making the natives work for a pittance, and usually in subservient roles. That is about where it all began don't you think?

You do know that discrimination began with the bossy Brits don't you Rick? Those were the days when the sun never sets on the British empire. Ah, but fast forward to current events. When a person has to deal with a society that places zero value on human life, then you begin to face an entirely different animal.

I have lots of BRITISH loved ones still in S.A. that took on S.A. partners and invested their own blood, sweat and tears into a country they love even though they know they will be forced to leave. Beginning again back home with next to nothing at their age is rather daunting. I believe they've done more in a day for the african populace than all the lip service you could afford in a lifetime. They were the sort that bleeding hearts like yourself would embrace wholeheartedly. Unfortunately they have had some horrendous experiences with the disadvantaged that did not take their progressive social values into consideration when attacking them. These types of events do effect the way you perceive events after awhile.

You will be most disappointed to know that I left right in the heart of Botha's time so I cannot even play the disgruntled race card. Damn and blast it! Just a damned shame I have to go back for family every now and again to offer some support for family dealing with yet another traumatic event.

Harare and Joburg are a blast a minute at the moment. I hope you go there soon and may I recommend a lovely tour of Soweto whilst you're at it. Actually Hillbrow is quite enchanting too.

Tegwyn

I understand Zim's cost of living is a little elevated with a few shortages of basics and all that. Of course, those little inconveniences do not apply to those that are on Mugabe's payroll. Both a positive and negative, depending on how you look at things.

How fortunate you are to move so freely between countries. Mugabe usually sends out the thug brigade to beat up those that want to leave the country that don't share his *cough* point of view. We positively know where you stand.......

Rick b

Your first point was the only damm reason for starting this. I certainly didn't intend on getting into an argument about anything.

Of course it did, I know my history. But fast forwarding to current events - not every part of the society places zero value on human life. I think thats my point more than anything. I certainly didn't come here to try and justify why everyone should up and leave from London and go and live in Jo'Burg or Harare. Far from it. I just didn't like the agressivness that came from Campbell in putting people off. There are other points of view and his/her attitude doesn't let that get heard. I should of just left it at that. Hindsight heh?

I am not a bleeding heart. I assure you. Again - as you know so many people you know that not every situation is as bad as Campbell makes it out to be.

Harare is a blast at the moment. I am there in June and can't wait. Bit far from Soweto I am afraid, went there on one of those tour things in 1999 - as they say - got the t-shirt - no need to go back...............!!

Rick b

Oh come on, I did not say anything about Harare being a paradise with no problems. Obviously economically it is in possibly the worst state it has been in ever. I can't wait until Mugabe goes and when he does hopefully there will be a transitional government which will get the country back on it's feet.

Amazing isn't it, I have a British passport as I am British. I have no love for the government of Zimbabwe. However even the most critical of Zimbabwe would have to admit the security situation there is nothing like South Africa............