So, we are thinking of moving......
#46
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
You rather miss the point.
Pablo
Pablo
#48
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
What has prompted this pointless exchange is that I picked you up on your rudeness and aggression some time ago and you didn't like it.
I have made my views on moving to SA perfectly clear many times.
So do just drop it.
Pablo
I have made my views on moving to SA perfectly clear many times.
So do just drop it.
Pablo
#49
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
As someone who spends 3-4 months of the year in Harare, I'd almost suggest someone move there than S.A the descriptions you give it..............
From your posts (as well as 3 or 4 others on here that reply to every S.A. post) it's obvious that you have disdain for everything African and everything to do with modern South Africa. Although your experiences are obviously unpleasant you have a rather large tendecy to be patronising, insulting and overly aggressively rude (wow thats bad grammer!) to anyone considering South Africa as a destination or asking questions about the country.
Personally I don't see the need. Yes, we all know anyone can look up "crime in South Africa" on google. Or "land seizures in Zimbabwe" if they wanted to by a farm in Zim. But many people on here are just trying to get simple info and facts from people who could well help them. Yet you decide to constantly pull out the same stuff again and again most of the time completly ignoring their questions!!!
Come on, people come here to ask questions, read about peoples circumstances - not to get a barrage of doom and gloom that they can get from reading any news source. I doubt the poster that started this thread is 16 and blissfully unaware there is crime in S.A.
You constantly link to that damm website about J'Burg which has some of the most racist comments on it e.g. "There is hope for S.A. - it's called Aids" and never have any positive to offer. Perhaps maybee people looking to have questions answered don't really need your input............
Many friends of mine HAVE had crime issues, however they still continue to live there because of the lifestyle, because of the weather and because maybe a lot of them own business's.
To the poster that started this thread, one of Campbells favourite analagy's is to say that someone earning £1000 in the UK per month needs 15,000 Rand. Well that takes no account that the cost of living is far lower in S.A. than in the UK. On 15,000 Rand you can get a mortgage to buy a house, you certainly can't do that anywhere in the UK.........................
There are many postives and many negatives about living in S.A. or even Zimbabwe.
#50
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
From your posts (as well as 3 or 4 others on here that reply to every S.A. post) it's obvious that you have disdain for everything African and everything to do with modern South Africa. Although your experiences are obviously unpleasant you have a rather large tendecy to be patronising, insulting and overly aggressively rude (wow thats bad grammer!) to anyone considering South Africa as a destination or asking questions about the country.
Personally I don't see the need. Yes, we all know anyone can look up "crime in South Africa" on google. Or "land seizures in Zimbabwe" if they wanted to by a farm in Zim. But many people on here are just trying to get simple info and facts from people who could well help them. Yet you decide to constantly pull out the same stuff again and again most of the time completly ignoring their questions!!!
You constantly link to that damm website about J'Burg which has some of the most racist comments on it e.g. "There is hope for S.A. - it's called Aids" and never have any positive to offer. Perhaps maybee people looking to have questions answered don't really need your input............ .
To the poster that started this thread, one of Campbells favourite analagy's is to say that someone earning £1000 in the UK per month needs 15,000 Rand. Well that takes no account that the cost of living is far lower in S.A. than in the UK. On 15,000 Rand you can get a mortgage to buy a house, you certainly can't do that anywhere in the UK.........................
There are many postives and many negatives about living in S.A. or even Zimbabwe.
There are many postives and many negatives about living in S.A. or even Zimbabwe.
In your wisdom can you explain why a young white couple in the UK with basic skills are going to survive in SA where there is all the racial preferencing employment programmes there? There is 40% unemployment in SA and 80% in Zim. The chances of a Brit getting a Visa to work in SA are slim.
Are you going to tell me that there isn’t a constant reference to colonials and elite whites in the media all over Africa that has the racial undertones.
My point:
You seem to forget that the media in South Africa and Zimbabwe is CONTROLLED and censored. WHY ?
PS: Congrats on your post number 1 let's see if you can add value and offer positive input now that you have joined the forum. Lots of single digit posters here mate and they all pretty much say what you have just said but they just never seem to keep posting. Let's hope you do as it would be awsome to get members from Africa ( BTW where are you based?) offering a solid contribution.
Last edited by Campbells; Apr 9th 2007 at 2:37 am.
#51
Account Closed
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 191
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
I can't say I agree with you there. I recently took all our household bills here in Cape Town for the month, put them in a spreadsheet and then found the equivalent prices for the UK via the web. This was for council bills, cellphones, groceries etc. At the exchange rate prevailing at the time SA was only marginally cheaper than the UK.
Granted the recent house price inflation in the UK is a major outgoing, but given the lower salaries here in SA the cost of living is probably higher than the UK, comparatively.
I do agree with the main point of your post though. All these grim SA stories don't seem to be posted by British expats, but by SA ones, so this isn't really the right corner of the internet for this stuff.
Granted the recent house price inflation in the UK is a major outgoing, but given the lower salaries here in SA the cost of living is probably higher than the UK, comparatively.
I do agree with the main point of your post though. All these grim SA stories don't seem to be posted by British expats, but by SA ones, so this isn't really the right corner of the internet for this stuff.
Last edited by whalewatcher; Apr 9th 2007 at 5:33 am.
#52
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
So instead of joining up to have a go at me why don’t you contribute to the forum and add value by posting the positives about Zimbabwe and South Africa.
So why don’t your counter that by writing polite positive posts and informing people of everything to do with the modern Africa ?
So why don’t your counter that by writing polite positive posts and informing people of everything to do with the modern Africa ?
I don't generally have a lot of time to post on message boards. Work, travelling etc. Thats why I look at say 2 or 3 on subjects that interest me but rarely post.
Simply because the violent slaughter that it going on in modern Africa happens again & again & again & again. If I am ignoring their questions it is the opportunity for you to get off the side lines and step right up and offer your positive views of modern Africa.
My posts are not just about experience and information from “just" news sources. I lived there and got out.
My posts are not just about experience and information from “just" news sources. I lived there and got out.
You have a bias as you lived under a government that was white controlled and made things easy for the white inhabitants. You didn't like it when things changed and left. Do you really think therefore you are the best to offer an unbiased view of Africa? I ask you that sincerely.
Others try and offer positives, they try to offer different points of view. However much of the time that I have seen conversations involving you they give up as you brow beat them.
You are like a 15 year old playground bully at times. Just look at your response to Pablo above my first comment. He was trying to answer the posters question, and made the point you are rude and agressive. He was trying to make a point and you responded in almost childlike fashion that you have your life to lose.
You lived there, you got out. Great. It doesn't mean you have to brow beat everyone who has the idea of going there. You obviously had a bad time there and didn't like it. My experience of South Africa and Zimbabwe is different - yet you don't let different opinions get spoken.
You ask me to answer questions with positives - whats the point, you trundle out the same stuff again and again and you obviously must be doing well for yourself where ever you are as you have much more time to post than I would.........................
Just a simple search of Souh Africa threads proves my point. In this thread the guy just wanted to ask about serviced apartments and you went on and on about murder rates etc etc.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435915
Show me where I constantly link to that website ? Perhaps you should offer your input instead of having a go at me. Your tactics are the just the same as Mugabe, beat up the opposition. Mate I thought Africa was about freedom of speech & human rights ? Besides you say you have been a long-time reader. Why didn’t you do something before this and offer your positive input.
No, I think it's important to have both sides of the coin being told. However, you are someone who others feel they can't stand up to as you have this aggressive rude attitude whenever anyone challanges you. As is shown in your post to me.
Both my wife and I ran our own businesses in SA. Now I understand your positive contribution to the thread. The lifestyle and weather. Weather I will grant you but lifestyle SUCKS ………………. Because you are constantly looking over your shoulder to see if you are going to get killed or raped.
The simple fact is that if you are security aware (and this IS important, I would never try and down play it) you can take out 90% of the risk. I wouldn't walk in some area's at night in London, why would I in any other city?
In your wisdom can you explain why a young white couple in the UK with basic skills are going to survive in SA where there is all the racial preferencing employment programmes there? There is 40% unemployment in SA and 80% in Zim. The chances of a Brit getting a Visa to work in SA are slim.
You and I and anyone else in Africa know that stats like unemployment are not worth the paper they are written on. Many many people work for cash in Africa that are not a part of these figures. Don't lets spin it. If you have the money to set up a business then getting a visa is relatively easy. Three friends have done so (two with backpacker style accomadation on Garden route and one industry based business in Grahamstown). All have been successful, love the lifestyle and although are very security aware, have not had any problems that were unexpected or specific to S.A.
PS: Congrats on your post number 1 let's see if you can add value and offer positive input now that you have joined the forum. Lots of single digit posters here mate and they all pretty much say what you have just said but they just never seem to keep posting. Let's hope you do as it would be awsome to get members from Africa ( BTW where are you based?) offering a solid contribution.
I believe in my first post I said I spend 3-4 months of the year in Harare - the rest is spent mostly in London, sometimes in Berlin. I am in London at present, next in Harare on June 1st.
#53
Account Closed
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,266
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
At least we've all lived in S.A. Since you haven't, you don't know what life there is truly like. You're comparing it to Zimbabwe, which is a paradise - crime wise - even today, when seen in the light of S.A.'s crime.
We did not run away because of a black government vs white government situation. So please don't try and play the racist bigot card around here. Most of us stuck it out for years under the ANC. When the CRIME situation got out of control, and we feared for both ours and our children's lives, a very REAL threat wherever you live in S.A., is when we got out. There are thousands of black South Africans accepting jobs all over the world every year, because of the crime situation. Are they racists too?
Maybe you aren't aware, but the reality of BEE is that you give over CONTROL of your company, the one you built up, to ensure continuing profitable contracts. Would you do it? Give over controlling interest in a company you spent years building up?
Trying to play the racist card will get you nowhere jack.
We did not run away because of a black government vs white government situation. So please don't try and play the racist bigot card around here. Most of us stuck it out for years under the ANC. When the CRIME situation got out of control, and we feared for both ours and our children's lives, a very REAL threat wherever you live in S.A., is when we got out. There are thousands of black South Africans accepting jobs all over the world every year, because of the crime situation. Are they racists too?
Maybe you aren't aware, but the reality of BEE is that you give over CONTROL of your company, the one you built up, to ensure continuing profitable contracts. Would you do it? Give over controlling interest in a company you spent years building up?
Trying to play the racist card will get you nowhere jack.
#54
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
At least we've all lived in S.A. Since you haven't, you don't know what life there is truly like. You're comparing it to Zimbabwe, which is a paradise - crime wise - even today, when seen in the light of S.A.'s crime.
We did not run away because of a black government vs white government situation. So please don't try and play the racist bigot card around here. Most of us stuck it out for years under the ANC. When the CRIME situation got out of control, and we feared for both ours and our children's lives, a very REAL threat wherever you live in S.A., is when we got out. There are thousands of black South Africans accepting jobs all over the world every year, because of the crime situation. Are they racists too?
Maybe you aren't aware, but the reality of BEE is that you give over CONTROL of your company, the one you built up, to ensure continuing profitable contracts. Would you do it? Give over controlling interest in a company you spent years building up?
Trying to play the racist card will get you nowhere jack.
We did not run away because of a black government vs white government situation. So please don't try and play the racist bigot card around here. Most of us stuck it out for years under the ANC. When the CRIME situation got out of control, and we feared for both ours and our children's lives, a very REAL threat wherever you live in S.A., is when we got out. There are thousands of black South Africans accepting jobs all over the world every year, because of the crime situation. Are they racists too?
Maybe you aren't aware, but the reality of BEE is that you give over CONTROL of your company, the one you built up, to ensure continuing profitable contracts. Would you do it? Give over controlling interest in a company you spent years building up?
Trying to play the racist card will get you nowhere jack.
Hmmmmmm, funny how you pick up on one sentance which was by no means the main point of my post and try and portray that I was calling Campbell racist................................
So lets get down to facts then, apologies if these have been given out before - I have missed them. Where are you know and when did you leave and how long has Campbell been in New Zealand?
Oh, you say "even today" re Zim. I was under the impression (from reading this forum in the past) you left in the 1980's after independence........yet so many others stayed - was there a reason other than the country was being ruled by a Black Government that you went to another white ruled country? (that was said just to let you be at ease that I am solely playing the race card as it is obviously the only conversation you want to have on the subject..............)
The economic reality of S.A. is that in many countries, people with specific skills will earn more there than in S.A. Hence people leave whatever the colour of their skin. With regards to business's - are you really telling me that many South African business's that were solely owned by Whites were not built up on the back of more or less slave labour, complete disregard of basic employment laws for Blacks. Profits were made that would not of been there had there been freedom and equality. In Zim from Independance until 1999 there was an African country which showed that Whites and Blacks could easily co-exist in Africa, both make profits and continue having a strong economy. Unfortunatly Mugabe did possibly the stupidist thing he could in destroying the farming sector, which had a knock on effect to almost every other industry. Land had to be re-distributed, but he and his cronies have made a complete mess of it. However in the cities, there are still business's running as they did and having no problems.
#55
Account Closed
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,266
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
All I am saying is that you have not lived in S.A. for any period of time, therefore you are not able to guage to what depth the crime situation ( which is the main factor driving South Africans of all hues away from the country), affects people's day to day lives.
As to your insinuations re: racist bigot, do not even go there.
As to your insinuations re: racist bigot, do not even go there.
#56
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
All I am saying is that you have not lived in S.A. for any period of time, therefore you are not able to guage to what depth the crime situation ( which is the main factor driving South Africans of all hues away from the country), affects people's day to day lives.
As to your insinuations re: racist bigot, do not even go there.
As to your insinuations re: racist bigot, do not even go there.
#57
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
The only thing Rick and I agree on is that Campbell does come across as very aggressive. That's about where it ends. Oh, and I am British with a vast amount of experience within the African life in Zims, Zambia, a bit of Kenya and S.A. What can we say about the racist regime Rick, the British can pat themselves on the back for colonizing all those foreign countries and making the natives work for a pittance, and usually in subservient roles. That is about where it all began don't you think?
You do know that discrimination began with the bossy Brits don't you Rick? Those were the days when the sun never sets on the British empire. Ah, but fast forward to current events. When a person has to deal with a society that places zero value on human life, then you begin to face an entirely different animal.
I have lots of BRITISH loved ones still in S.A. that took on S.A. partners and invested their own blood, sweat and tears into a country they love even though they know they will be forced to leave. Beginning again back home with next to nothing at their age is rather daunting. I believe they've done more in a day for the african populace than all the lip service you could afford in a lifetime. They were the sort that bleeding hearts like yourself would embrace wholeheartedly. Unfortunately they have had some horrendous experiences with the disadvantaged that did not take their progressive social values into consideration when attacking them. These types of events do effect the way you perceive events after awhile.
You will be most disappointed to know that I left right in the heart of Botha's time so I cannot even play the disgruntled race card. Damn and blast it! Just a damned shame I have to go back for family every now and again to offer some support for family dealing with yet another traumatic event.
Harare and Joburg are a blast a minute at the moment. I hope you go there soon and may I recommend a lovely tour of Soweto whilst you're at it. Actually Hillbrow is quite enchanting too.
You do know that discrimination began with the bossy Brits don't you Rick? Those were the days when the sun never sets on the British empire. Ah, but fast forward to current events. When a person has to deal with a society that places zero value on human life, then you begin to face an entirely different animal.
I have lots of BRITISH loved ones still in S.A. that took on S.A. partners and invested their own blood, sweat and tears into a country they love even though they know they will be forced to leave. Beginning again back home with next to nothing at their age is rather daunting. I believe they've done more in a day for the african populace than all the lip service you could afford in a lifetime. They were the sort that bleeding hearts like yourself would embrace wholeheartedly. Unfortunately they have had some horrendous experiences with the disadvantaged that did not take their progressive social values into consideration when attacking them. These types of events do effect the way you perceive events after awhile.
You will be most disappointed to know that I left right in the heart of Botha's time so I cannot even play the disgruntled race card. Damn and blast it! Just a damned shame I have to go back for family every now and again to offer some support for family dealing with yet another traumatic event.
Harare and Joburg are a blast a minute at the moment. I hope you go there soon and may I recommend a lovely tour of Soweto whilst you're at it. Actually Hillbrow is quite enchanting too.
#58
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
How fortunate you are to move so freely between countries. Mugabe usually sends out the thug brigade to beat up those that want to leave the country that don't share his *cough* point of view. We positively know where you stand.......
#59
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
The only thing Rick and I agree on is that Campbell does come across as very aggressive. That's about where it ends. Oh, and I am British with a vast amount of experience within the African life in Zims, Zambia, a bit of Kenya and S.A. What can we say about the racist regime Rick, the British can pat themselves on the back for colonizing all those foreign countries and making the natives work for a pittance, and usually in subservient roles. That is about where it all began don't you think?
You do know that discrimination began with the bossy Brits don't you Rick? Those were the days when the sun never sets on the British empire. Ah, but fast forward to current events. When a person has to deal with a society that places zero value on human life, then you begin to face an entirely different animal.
I have lots of BRITISH loved ones still in S.A. that took on S.A. partners and invested their own blood, sweat and tears into a country they love even though they know they will be forced to leave. Beginning again back home with next to nothing at their age is rather daunting. I believe they've done more in a day for the african populace than all the lip service you could afford in a lifetime. They were the sort that bleeding hearts like yourself would embrace wholeheartedly. Unfortunately they have had some horrendous experiences with the disadvantaged that did not take their progressive social values into consideration when attacking them. These types of events do effect the way you perceive events after awhile.
You will be most disappointed to know that I left right in the heart of Botha's time so I cannot even play the disgruntled race card. Damn and blast it! Just a damned shame I have to go back for family every now and again to offer some support for family dealing with yet another traumatic event.
Harare and Joburg are a blast a minute at the moment. I hope you go there soon and may I recommend a lovely tour of Soweto whilst you're at it. Actually Hillbrow is quite enchanting too.
Harare and Joburg are a blast a minute at the moment. I hope you go there soon and may I recommend a lovely tour of Soweto whilst you're at it. Actually Hillbrow is quite enchanting too.
#60
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 256
Re: So, we are thinking of moving......
Amazing isn't it, I have a British passport as I am British. I have no love for the government of Zimbabwe. However even the most critical of Zimbabwe would have to admit the security situation there is nothing like South Africa............