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So, we are thinking of moving......

So, we are thinking of moving......

Old Apr 4th 2007, 8:28 am
  #31  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Campbells, apology accepted

I am in the process of doing my research and I do intend to do a LOT of it.

Nothing is definite, we are still giving it all serious thought but it is difficult when Jamie's family are there.

There's no mad rush, plenty of time to make decisions!!
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Old Apr 4th 2007, 11:20 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Hey Susie.

No amount of research can prepare you for what lies in wait for you on the other side. It is not that obvious to most people that visit South Africa for short periods of time where the true dangers lie. You hear 'we went to South Africa and had a wonderful time and we were not affected by crime' don't know what South Africans are going on about! 'We walked about and had no problems, or stayed with family and did not have any problems'. The walls, electric fences, razor wire and private security firms are good clues as to what the problems are.

The reality is that visitors are unaware of the fact that they should be ALERT. Not UK, Australia, USA etc. alert, but South Africa ALERT.

Once you have lived in SA long enough you will understand exactly what I am going on about, or maybe not. I know people that are so thick skinned that after being hijacked twice, robbed, burgled several times, look at you as if you are mad by saying that crime is out of control.

Look up any ex-pat website that has a South African section and see what the main topics of conversation are. We all seem to tell the same stories, we are all either dillusional and sprout forth untruths and lies, or we really have a point to make based on our experiences.

The reality of day to day living in South Africa, the fear, be it rational or irrational, eventually caught up with us. We decided to move out and give it a go somewhere else while we were young enough to turn the bus around if it did not suit us. Living abroad is very hard, your family and friends are really the things you miss at the end of the day so I can fully understand your desire to be with family.

We left SA 9 months ago for Australia and are now more ALERT than ever. Alert to the fact that life in South Africa is far below what is deemed reasonable to most people living in the first world. Not everything here is as we or the Australians would like it though. There is no Utopia. It is about compromise and everything in life adds up to 100%. How you assign your portions of the 100% to the priorities in your life differs from everybody elses.

You have crime here too, don't kid yourself, but there are many times I smile and think jees but the guys here are rank amateurs. What passes for a security gate here would get ripped off your door in five seconds flat in SA and sold to the aluminium scrap metal dealer. Not sure what they would do with the fly netting though!

The one thing that really stands out about South Africans, and people around the world generally, is how resiliant thay become when pushed hard enough. Why I say this is because when people in SA say they have not been victims of crime, they mean being physically threatened. They may have been burgled, had cars stolen etc but not stared down the barrel of a gun. They have become resilient by being pushed, their coping mechanism is shifting the definition of crime, that way it does not seem so bad.

Go and give it a go but be very realistic about your expectations. Don't be afraid to say that this is not working out how we planned it, nobody is judging you. If it is your bliss and you have found it, stick with it.

After all, we are the sum of our experiences, it is the only thing you are going to take with you when the grim reaper comes knocking at your door.

Most of all be happy with your life, if you are miserable, move on, make a change, move your own cheese. Life is too short to be unhappy.

Best of luck!!
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Old Apr 4th 2007, 11:43 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Way2Go
Hey Susie.

No amount of research can prepare you for what lies in wait for you on the other side. It is not that obvious to most people that visit South Africa for short periods of time where the true dangers lie. You hear 'we went to South Africa and had a wonderful time and we were not affected by crime' don't know what South Africans are going on about! 'We walked about and had no problems, or stayed with family and did not have any problems'. The walls, electric fences, razor wire and private security firms are good clues as to what the problems are.

The reality is that visitors are unaware of the fact that they should be ALERT. Not UK, Australia, USA etc. alert, but South Africa ALERT.

Once you have lived in SA long enough you will understand exactly what I am going on about, or maybe not. I know people that are so thick skinned that after being hijacked twice, robbed, burgled several times, look at you as if you are mad by saying that crime is out of control.

Look up any ex-pat website that has a South African section and see what the main topics of conversation are. We all seem to tell the same stories, we are all either dillusional and sprout forth untruths and lies, or we really have a point to make based on our experiences.

The reality of day to day living in South Africa, the fear, be it rational or irrational, eventually caught up with us. We decided to move out and give it a go somewhere else while we were young enough to turn the bus around if it did not suit us. Living abroad is very hard, your family and friends are really the things you miss at the end of the day so I can fully understand your desire to be with family.

We left SA 9 months ago for Australia and are now more ALERT than ever. Alert to the fact that life in South Africa is far below what is deemed reasonable to most people living in the first world. Not everything here is as we or the Australians would like it though. There is no Utopia. It is about compromise and everything in life adds up to 100%. How you assign your portions of the 100% to the priorities in your life differs from everybody elses.

You have crime here too, don't kid yourself, but there are many times I smile and think jees but the guys here are rank amateurs. What passes for a security gate here would get ripped off your door in five seconds flat in SA and sold to the aluminium scrap metal dealer. Not sure what they would do with the fly netting though!

The one thing that really stands out about South Africans, and people around the world generally, is how resiliant thay become when pushed hard enough. Why I say this is because when people in SA say they have not been victims of crime, they mean being physically threatened. They may have been burgled, had cars stolen etc but not stared down the barrel of a gun. They have become resilient by being pushed, their coping mechanism is shifting the definition of crime, that way it does not seem so bad.

Go and give it a go but be very realistic about your expectations. Don't be afraid to say that this is not working out how we planned it, nobody is judging you. If it is your bliss and you have found it, stick with it.

After all, we are the sum of our experiences, it is the only thing you are going to take with you when the grim reaper comes knocking at your door.

Most of all be happy with your life, if you are miserable, move on, make a change, move your own cheese. Life is too short to be unhappy.

Best of luck!!
Hey mate,

Been a while since your last visit here on the forum. Where in Oz have you settled ?

How’s it going over there?

Good post there and hope it’s all good for you.

Cheers
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Old Apr 5th 2007, 9:09 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Hi Campbells.

We are settled in Sydney at the moment. Coming from Joburg the thought of a small town i.e. 1 - 1.5 million people was a little daunting, it would feel as if someone pulled up the handbrake when we landed. Joburg has a buzz to it that makes even Sydney feels sleepy to me. I like the quiet though, just not too quiet.

Things are good for us, we rent in a nice neighbourhood, both have reasonable paying jobs and are enjoying the freedoms we forgot about living in SA. Going to U2 and catching the train back home at 1 AM then walking home was a surreal experience. When I get homesick I just remind myself why we are here as you tend to take the good things for granted very quickly, that is because they are so comfortable and easy to get used to.

We have friends in the UK who wanted to go home after 7 years but are very aware of the dangers of being in SA. They are applying for OZ instead and will be coming over to us in the next 2 or so years. A mutual friend had two very close calls in the 9 months they were back and are now heading out again. A very sad and dissapointing situation indeed.

Enjoy the Easter Weekend, eat as much chocolate as you can. Lindt bunnies are the way to go, start with the ears.

You guys in New Zealand?? Skiing in Queenstown looks good to me!

Cheers
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Old Apr 5th 2007, 9:04 pm
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Way2Go
Hi Campbells.

We are settled in Sydney at the moment. Coming from Joburg the thought of a small town i.e. 1 - 1.5 million people was a little daunting, it would feel as if someone pulled up the handbrake when we landed. Joburg has a buzz to it that makes even Sydney feels sleepy to me. I like the quiet though, just not too quiet.

Things are good for us, we rent in a nice neighbourhood, both have reasonable paying jobs and are enjoying the freedoms we forgot about living in SA. Going to U2 and catching the train back home at 1 AM then walking home was a surreal experience. When I get homesick I just remind myself why we are here as you tend to take the good things for granted very quickly, that is because they are so comfortable and easy to get used to.

We have friends in the UK who wanted to go home after 7 years but are very aware of the dangers of being in SA. They are applying for OZ instead and will be coming over to us in the next 2 or so years. A mutual friend had two very close calls in the 9 months they were back and are now heading out again. A very sad and dissapointing situation indeed.

Enjoy the Easter Weekend, eat as much chocolate as you can. Lindt bunnies are the way to go, start with the ears.

You guys in New Zealand?? Skiing in Queenstown looks good to me!

Cheers
Yebo W2G,

Vaallie hey? We were in Jo’burg too, Fourways. I know what you say re the little town vibe. Auckland is “rustig” by comparison. The traffic in Joeys was getting mad with all the town-house development around where we stayed. Out-of-peak traffic to get onto William Nicoll Drive took about 7 minutes, in peak-traffic the same journey could take an hour just to travel a few kms. Our friend was over here last Dec and she was saying that it takes her nearly two hours one way to work, that’s four hours each day in the car. It’s a 25 kms trip. No thanks…. Peak-hour traffic here in Auckland can be bad too especially is you are crossing the harbour bridge in peak times. If I have to go into the city in peak time it takes about an hour compared to approx 30 minutes out off-peak.

Was in Sydney last year and really loved it. Was a business trip and did a bit of exploring at night, mainly taking photos and felt 100% safe walking around on my own with my camera etc. Darling harbour is awesome. I loved Sydney and the buzz also the public transport options that are all clean & safe. Also spent a few days in Melbourne and the family flew over to meet up with me there as we stayed with ex SA friends there. The missus loved it but I preferred Sydney. I got the impression that Sydney is a very organised city and cosmopolitan. Jo’burg in the 80s.

The “new” life is such a big factor and people thinking of moving to SA just don’t understand that ALERT thing over there and how draining it all gets. The sad thing is that it is getting worse. If I get onto 24.com news it is almost sickening. I read that recently the ANC had to apologise to the traditional healers and that the ancestors had been offended blah blah blah. Meantime the country is plagued with murders for body parts to make muti for the witch doctors. Africa needs to get beyond all that voodoo stuff.

We have a wee lad, just turned 4 and New Zealand is a great place to bring up kids. We love the freedom of not having to look over your shoulder all the time and being able to do just the simple things and enjoy them, like going for a walk.

We haven’t been to Queenstown yet. We are hoping to get away this winter somewhere to let the wee nipper see the snow for the first time. New Zealand is a beautiful country and lots to do. Miss the Transvaal weather.

Anyways mate. Thanks for the Easter wishes and the same to you & yours.
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 9:52 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Susie1979UK
I for one, am losing my faith in the UK... a new asylum seeker each week...sick of the 'chav' culture...teenagers having children...street drinkers...political correctness gone mad...armed robbery
These may or may not be good reasons for leaving the UK, but certainly not good reasons for heading for SA! Very much a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire on each of those issues, not just the crime. SA suffers from profound social dysfunction; if the same levels applied in the UK most Brits would think the end of the world had come.

Ask yourself if you could really love SA and its culture, warts and all. Are you drawn to read books about its history, politics and geography, to learn Zulu? If there's no fascination, no irresistible pull, then it probably won't work for you. If there is, then it might. That's the starting point. Would you have thought about even taking a holiday here if you'd never met your partner? There's a whole lot of extra stuff that comes with SA that probably doesn't come with going to somewhere like Oz. It's more than just houses, jobs, swimming pools and hot weather. It's a specialised taste, and you have to think you might acquire it.

Last edited by whalewatcher; Apr 6th 2007 at 9:57 am.
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 10:24 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Whalewatcher is absolutely right. Furthermore, I have to say that I suspect Susie's inlaws may be downplaying the negative aspects of life in Jo'burg in order to get their son back there. I mean, just a casual look at the SA newspapers online tells you all you need to know about the crime, corruption, municipal breakdown, and all-pervading incompetence.

The trouble with holiday visits (and this is true of any holiday destination) is that one is not forced to deal with all those aspects of daily life that drive you mad -- paying your property taxes, organising phone lines, dealing with the revenue service, driving licences, healthcare, and so on.

On my last visit back to SA a couple of years ago I had lunch at Village Walk, Sandton, and all was glorious. But then I had to go with a friend to Home Affairs. We ended up going to the branch in Roodepoort (because the one in Randburg no longer handled permanent residence renewal stamps, which is what the friend needed). My God! It was appalling. Dangerous crowds hanging round outside; bewildered African blacks within, and a general air of chaos.

Quite apart from that, though, one just can't tell how one will feel when the focus of one's world changes. Suddenly South Africa ceases to be THERE and becomes HERE, and you have the feeling of being on a slowly sinking ship while the rest of the world steams past you, happily waving. And you just can't tell how you'll feel when there is a shoot-out at your regular shopping mall, or when a friend is murdered or raped. Those things have to happen to you before you know and understand, and any amount of words from others just isn't the same. We have become innured to seeing dead bodies and appalling misery on the television. We don't *feel* it any longer -- not, that is, until is becomes real for us personally. Then we feel it. Then we understand how the tv news, for all its gruesome images, is really just a lie. The pictures are not the reality. It takes personal experience to realise that.

I think Susie should look at it this way. If what people have told her on this list is true, she'll find that out for herself soon enough. If it's all lies, she'll find out that too.

Pablo
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 10:52 am
  #38  
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Pablo
Whalewatcher is absolutely right. Furthermore, I have to say that I suspect Susie's inlaws may be downplaying the negative aspects of life in Jo'burg in order to get their son back there. I mean, just a casual look at the SA newspapers online tells you all you need to know about the crime, corruption, municipal breakdown, and all-pervading incompetence.

The trouble with holiday visits (and this is true of any holiday destination) is that one is not forced to deal with all those aspects of daily life that drive you mad -- paying your property taxes, organising phone lines, dealing with the revenue service, driving licences, healthcare, and so on.

On my last visit back to SA a couple of years ago I had lunch at Village Walk, Sandton, and all was glorious. But then I had to go with a friend to Home Affairs. We ended up going to the branch in Roodepoort (because the one in Randburg no longer handled permanent residence renewal stamps, which is what the friend needed). My God! It was appalling. Dangerous crowds hanging round outside; bewildered African blacks within, and a general air of chaos.

Quite apart from that, though, one just can't tell how one will feel when the focus of one's world changes. Suddenly South Africa ceases to be THERE and becomes HERE, and you have the feeling of being on a slowly sinking ship while the rest of the world steams past you, happily waving. And you just can't tell how you'll feel when there is a shoot-out at your regular shopping mall, or when a friend is murdered or raped. Those things have to happen to you before you know and understand, and any amount of words from others just isn't the same. We have become innured to seeing dead bodies and appalling misery on the television. We don't *feel* it any longer -- not, that is, until is becomes real for us personally. Then we feel it. Then we understand how the tv news, for all its gruesome images, is really just a lie. The pictures are not the reality. It takes personal experience to realise that.

I think Susie should look at it this way. If what people have told her on this list is true, she'll find that out for herself soon enough. If it's all lies, she'll find out that too.

Pablo


Ultimately all our lives are just experiences and these weave into our characters and makes us the characters we *become*.

Whether it is lies or truth it is in essence the possibilities that one has to consider.

In business it is called *risk analysis*. In life we call it wisdom.

Cheers. Have a great Easter weekend.
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 10:58 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Campbells
Ultimately all our lives are just experiences and these weave into our characters and makes us the characters we *become*.

Whether it is lies or truth it is in essence the possibilities that one has to consider.

In business it is called *risk analysis*. In life we call it wisdom.

Cheers. Have a great Easter weekend.
... And wisdom comes only with experience. There are no shortcuts, alas.

Pablo
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 11:01 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

In fact I'll add that I think if you're losing faith in the UK, a year or two in SA might be a good way to restore it. I don't want to run down SA, it has its own huge problems and good luck to it. Rather, I know much anti-British propaganda people in the UK currently get from their own media, and they(we) are a bunch of moaners after all!

But every visit back convinces me just what a great place it is, and how lucky I was to grow up there, in spite of the chavs. Anyway, the 'chavs' and the drinking culture have always been there, under one name or another, look at some engravings by Hogarth...
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Old Apr 6th 2007, 11:43 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Pablo
... And wisdom comes only with experience. There are no shortcuts, alas.

Pablo
I prefer the term that wisdom is the application of knowledge and in the world we live in today there are vast options to obtaining knowledge, for example, the internet. Forums such as this one are designed to be knowledge sharing (although many times it ends up in a bun fight).

It is not uncommon for vendors of very expensive software to utilise such *knowledge sharing* forums as a *support* channel. Therefore I disagree that all wisdom comes through experience, I would push that out to say experiences *shared*.

Bit like watching a DIY DVD and the bloke advises not do such and such with the hammer otherwise your gonna bang your thumb. What you gonna do when your about to hit the nail? Go the DIY freestyle route ?

Have a good weekend and hope your DIYing ! Cheers
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Old Apr 7th 2007, 6:11 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Campbells
I prefer the term that wisdom is the application of knowledge and in the world we live in today there are vast options to obtaining knowledge, for example, the internet. Forums such as this one are designed to be knowledge sharing (although many times it ends up in a bun fight).

It is not uncommon for vendors of very expensive software to utilise such *knowledge sharing* forums as a *support* channel. Therefore I disagree that all wisdom comes through experience, I would push that out to say experiences *shared*.

Bit like watching a DIY DVD and the bloke advises not do such and such with the hammer otherwise your gonna bang your thumb. What you gonna do when your about to hit the nail? Go the DIY freestyle route ?

Have a good weekend and hope your DIYing ! Cheers
Information is not knowledge. That is the great modern idiocy. As for wisdom, it is the right use of knowledge.

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Old Apr 7th 2007, 9:30 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Pablo
Information is not knowledge. That is the great modern idiocy. As for wisdom, it is the right use of knowledge.

Pablo
Wikipedia defines:

Knowledge is what is known. Like the related concepts truth, belief, and wisdom, there is no single definition of knowledge on which scholars agree, but rather numerous theories and continued debate about the nature of knowledge.
Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association, and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject, potentially with the ability to use it for a specific purpose.

Wisdom is the ability, developed through experience, insight and reflection, to discern truth and exercise good judgment. Wisdom is sometimes conceptualized as an especially well developed form of common sense[citation needed]. According to the renowned Neuropsychologist and Neurobiologist Roger Wolcott Sperry though, Wisdom/Intuition is a right-brain activity while Factual and Mathematical analysis is a left-brain activity[1].
According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, wisdom is defined as the "1 a: Accumulated philosophic or scientific learning-knowledge; b: Ability to discern inner qualities and relationships-insight; c: Good sense-judgment d: Generally accepted belief <challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians — Robert Darnton>. 2: A wise attitude, belief, or course of action. 3: The teachings of the ancient wise men"[2].
Most psychologists regard wisdom as distinct from the cognitive abilities measured by standardized intelligence tests. Wisdom is often considered to be a trait that can be developed by experience, but not taught. When applied to practical matters, the term wisdom is synonymous with prudence. Some see wisdom as a quality that even a child, otherwise immature, may possess independent of experience or complete knowledge.The status of wisdom or prudence as a virtue is recognized in cultural, philosophical and religious sources. Some define wisdom in a utilitarian sense, as foreseeing consequences and acting to maximize the long-term common good.[citation needed]
As such, in general, wisdom is looked at his/her ideals and principles that govern all actions and decisions. Applications of personal wisdom include one's ethical and social guidelines in life that determines one’s unique style of personality, the particular nature of short and long-term goal(s) pursued in life (spiritual or materialistic for example), perspective on life, social attitudes, etc.

Cheers ..........
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Old Apr 7th 2007, 9:41 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Campbells
Wikipedia defines:
etc...
[
Cheers ..........
Wikipedia is written by morons for morons. Your point is all this is? Or are you just bored?

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Old Apr 7th 2007, 9:53 am
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Default Re: So, we are thinking of moving......

Originally Posted by Pablo
Wikipedia is written by morons for morons. Your point is all this is? Or are you just bored?

Pablo

Ok so Wikipedia is by morons for morons

What about dictionary.com , that ok for you madam ?

knowl•edge ˈnɒl ɪdʒ - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nol-ij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things.
2. familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning: A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.
3. acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report: a knowledge of human nature.
4. the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.
5. awareness, as of a fact or circumstance: He had knowledge of her good fortune.
6. something that is or may be known; information: He sought knowledge of her activities.
7. the body of truths or facts accumulated in the course of time.
8. the sum of what is known: Knowledge of the true situation is limited.
9. Archaic. sexual intercourse. Compare CARNAL KNOWLEDGE.

–adjective
10. creating, involving, using, or disseminating special knowledge or information: A computer expert can always find a good job in the knowledge industry.
—Idiom
11. to one's knowledge, according to the information available to one: To my knowledge he hasn't been here before.


wis•dom ˈwɪz dəm - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wiz-duh m] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight.
2. scholarly knowledge or learning: the wisdom of the schools.
3. wise sayings or teachings; precepts.
4. a wise act or saying.
5. (initial capital letter ) Douay Bible. WISDOM OF SOLOMON.

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[Origin: bef. 900; ME, OE wīsdōm; c. ON vīsdōmr, G Weistum. See WISE1, -DOM ]

—Related forms
wis•dom•less, adjective

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