Juggernaut

And I believe youre not. So dont call others propogandist for the government when all they're doing is stating their personal views .and yes you have called my views propaganda on many a occasion.

An inconvienent truth- makes you sound like Al Gore. Which isnt a bad thing. Truth is based on facts not opinion however. Too many persons here perceive S.A in a certain way or have opinions of where the country is going and then broadcast those as the truth of the day.

I agree .There is a very vocal group on this forum who puts you very firmly in the majority .
As I have, many others have been shouted down on this Forum for being proponents of S.A .Some never return .I'm glad to see two or three popping in every so often.

Pablo

Juggernaut, being a propagandist and "stating personal views" are not mutually exclusive, are they? I mean, one can be both. But when one advocates sacrificing what is true, or honest, in favour of what is convenient, or what suits the government, or what serves the "country", then you are sacrificing your integrity in favour of some other goal.

... And of course any assessment of "facts" requires opinion as to which facts are relevant and which are not.

It seems to me that any comment about the future is necessarily an opinion. As for your "Too many..." above, well that depends on one's opinion of what the right number would be, doesn't it?

Would you like to muzzle or silence them? That seems to be the African way. You seem to object not because what people say is untrue, but because it doesn't suit the government.

Ah, this is the usual pre-amble on this list to demands for people to be muzzled or shut up. I see various people losing the argument, but that is not the same as "shouted down". And you will note that "being a proponent of SA" is being a propagandist.

Daxk

Juggernaut:"We havent seen throngs of people immigrate from the states or even dissuade persons who could be an asset to the country from going there or advise them go to Australia instead.
Many here say they love the country, and this is them doing their bit .Just how is your actions helping S.A. ?"
The Americans have the ability to punish its non-performing Politicians and Political parties at the Ballot Box.
And do so frequently.
White South Africans dont have that choice.

Stanley10

Of course they do, just that nowadays their vote doesn't count as much as it used to.
Why compare Americans with white South Africans? Should white South Africans get special treatment? I thought you were past all that Daxk?

Daxk

responding tohat specific part of Juggernauts post.
If the entire remaining 4 million whites chose to vote the ANC out of power, would they be able to?
therefore, that option is futile.
They do not have a choice of Government.

Juggernaut

When have I sacrificed the truth in favour of "some other goal"? Like you , I speak my truth as loud as the next person .I dont lie to achieve that objective. Since when is doing what serves the country and speaking the truth mutually exclusive ?

South Africans have that same power .Be they white, black or coloured .We cant have one government for white south africans and one for black south africans. One would think that other parties the likes of the D.A or I.D would be able to make massive gains in their numbers when looking at the turmoil within the ANC . If they cant wrestle voters away from the ANC during turbulent times just how do they expect to do it during better days.

Ive also heard the argument that the black voting public is just too unsophisticated to identify with a opposition party such as the DA. How have the DA transformed itself into a party that is is seen to be caring for all south africans .The leader of the DA gets involved in tit for tat battles with a small time crook like Baahdi Chabaan . The D.A needs to grow up.

Instead of promoting their own agenda all they do is oppose whatever the ANC propose. Some might say well thats the purpose of the opposition but if thats their only aim then they will never emerge from the shadow of the ANC. We need a strong non racial alternative to the ANC, unfortunately no such party has raised its hand yet.

Pablo

It was reported yesterday that the ANC-YL and others in the ANC are calling the Democratic Alliance and even the Constitutional Court "counter-revolutionaries" who must be "eliminated." I fear they mean it.

Pablo

My dear Juggernaut, the point was general, not necessarily applied to you. If the cap fits, wear it. If not, don't.

Juggernaut

Once again you make the mistake of thinking all non white south africans want to vote for the ANC or that all white south africans would vote against the ANC.
Everytime you vote you exercise your choice. Already the city of Cape town has Helen Zille as the mayor the have the majority of seats in that council .So why cant they use that as a platform. Make such an impression on their voting public in that city so as to shut the door on the ANC in that province .They have plenty of media space lets hear about their successes .Dont just condemn ,prove what you can do.
The war for control of S.A wont be won in one fell swoop .It will be won one battle at a time. The D.A have one that battle, they need to consolidate.

Tegwyn

Actually Jugs, Thousands upon thousands of South Africans have voted for the opposition party by doing the only thing they believed they have left to do - leave!

El_Chango

I think Teg, Pablo and Daxk are right here.

But, since I'm learning, Jugs; never mind the right to vote, focus for me on speech and language. Have you had black people in SA comfortably evoque to you some amount of trepidation regarding the brain drain? All these productive law and order types leaving cannot be a happy subject in your country.

I've seen some hunt websites, who draw their livelyhood from tourism mention the lawless factor in SA: that's not gonna bring any hay into their barns is it?

Perhaps the ANC is simply unfit to govern, but they ride on a wave of undeserved allegiance in a public that just doesn't know better. Here, in the states, we're finally seeing christians wander off the republican reservation (for more conservative pastures). Same thing in the democrat camp, blacks are starting to wander off that plantation. Of course, the latinos are the latest much courted spoilers... Race and religion spring eternal. Some good might come of all this.

Or maybe, the ANC, being human and communists after all, are discovering what a drag it is to be in power, with all the minutia, power gen, water, garbage pick up, taxes, law enforcement ...etc...and pine for the kill and sabotage days of their youth. It is so much easier to tear down than to build and produce.

Stanley10

Yet it is Jugs who lives there.

Perhaps, the hard part is convincing the public that there is a better alternative.

Communists, thats a bit 70's isn't it? I don't think they are finding being in power a drag, on the contrary, power gen, water, garbage pick up etc opens new opportunities for them.

No doubt you have some evidence to back this statement up? Ah, perhaps it is " the public record"

Daxk

Stanley10:"No doubt you have some evidence to back this statement up? Ah, perhaps it is " the public record"
will this suffice?
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/misc/trc2c.html
which lists those acts of Terror the ANC owned up during the Struggle.

Stanley10

No Daxk, it's the pining bit that I am curious about.

El_Chango

Your suspition regarding my pining comment could be very astute. To pine involves a set of human emotions the propensity for which I may have erroneously attributed to those men; a kind of perfunctory assumption of which I'm clearly often guilty. I won't claim non compus mentus here, but I was very tired and had a couple of beers in me.

My news sources in the 70s were pretty limited:
France inter, Europe un, RTL, Radio Moscou (only at night), BBC (only at night), Voice of America...

In print, le Monde plus their economic supplement, le Figaro, Time magazine, National Geographic magazine, Le Courrier Picard, New York Times...

I'm going to have to get back to you on specific articles and broadcasts on the matter. It's going to be difficult in terms of research because although get the news feeds from some of those newspapers online, I'm too cheap to pay to have access to their archives.

All kidding aside, I'm not going to depo-prep before posting (that's preparing for a deposition). I like a well footnoted article just like the next guy, but you need to detox from your collegiate program of proffessorial gratification and requisite self-deprecation.


First good rain of the summer and I still can't smell a thing, and what a drag it is.