gilliana

last point here Daxk... I live in Fleet / Church Crookham in Hampshire - decent area - pay £850 pm for a 2-bed home with a garden. I have a neigbour on one side who dotes on her goldfish, and keeps to herself, on the other side a very grumpy man who keeps any of the balls that go over his fence. Thats irrelevant, but because of this, we go to the park to play footie and leave the park if a group of youths come... There are kids in the neighbourhood who my son has befriended and they come and hang out here until I have to chase them home by 6/7pm. Their parents havent met me? These kids range from 6yrs - 11yrs.. they should be at home doing homework, having supper? Yet they let their kids hang out at strangers homes. Hence, I told my son, rather have the kids here than you there. Different set of values but I didnt go interview the neighbourhood before I moved here. But "my research" showed Hampshire (and specifically this area) to be a good area for education, lifestyle etc and conveniently situated to commute to work.

Daxk

"people come to forums to get views and opinions of their own experiences and offer whatever advice / tips n tricks etc... First hand experience..."
which is exactly what we did and you threw your toys out the cot about.
Everyone who posted is/was either a Saffa or a Perm REsident of SA for some time.
And:"You leave the country and you criticise it. Why?
You love(d) it and it saddens you to see it go to the dogs. But you leave and criticise? You do nothing to help the country you once love(d)."

I have'nt seen a single person here criticise the country.
The ANC are not the Country. They are merely South African Citizens of all races who are in power and whose actions invite and encourage criticism.
In what way do you suggest we should "Help"?

"Fair enough to state reasons for leaving, but why not encourage the foreign interest in the country instead of scaring the living sh.t out of anyone who enquires..."
Why? to what end? Whatever we say people will do what is right for them.
What has been said here about crime , corruption, State education and state Health, Public Transport etc that is untrue about the state of SA?
Are you actively saying we should minimise the very real horror that does happen daily in SA?

Pablo

Absolutely, Daxk. We have nothing more here than yet another South African who comes to England and says she doesn't like it. Nothing to say about England's rich and varied culture, nothing to say about the fascinating history, nothing to say about the huge variety of places of visit and explore. No, just whine, whine, whine, because the UK is not exactly like her narrow little experience of South Africa.

Furthermore, she does not compare like with like. She compares *private* schools in SA with *state* schools in the UK, and complains. She compares *private* healthcare in SA with *state* healthcare in the UK, and complains.

She comes here. She has to live for a few months in relative poverty -- shock! horror! Having to put up with state schools and the National Health Service in Hampshire -- and she whines. You'd think she had wound up in the middle of the Congo. But no, it's the Home Counties of England. Pathetic.

Well, no one is forcing her to stay here. Let her go back to her beloved SA.

The average Brit who posts here is *not* aware of the risks of living in SA. There have been posters in the past who expected to be able to use the state health system in SA when they emigrated. There have been posters in the past who expected to cycle across South Africa safely. There are posters who think the state schools in South Africa will be adequate. There are posters who do not expect to have to take provision against violent home invasions, hijacking, and the rest. They DO NOT know the risks. If Gilliana, as a South African, does know the risks, and doesn't care, then that's fine and dandy, and no one is stopping her returning to live with those risks.

She has no advice of value to give to those British and other emigrants who do not know South Africa. She has nothing to say about the precautions one must take. She has nothing to say about the breakdown of municipal services, or electricity supply, or healthcare. She has nothing to say about the wave of corruption. She has nothing to say about the rottenness of the ANC government (which is unlikely *ever* to lose power). She has nothing to say about the fact that a corrupt rapist is about to become the next president. No, she is just blithely "optimistic".

As for those who are "negative" - we warned about all of the above, and each time we have been shouted down as being overly negative, and for being traitors. And each time those things have come to pass. Just take the breakdown in electricity supply. People were warning about that two years ago on this list. And they were shouted down as being ridiculous, negative, exaggerating. And yet the breakdown we now see came faster than even the most "negative" posters predicted.

A few months ago we had someone complaining in the same tones about those who were "negative" about Zimbabwe. Well who was right? We hear very little now from that Panglossian poster.

And yes, what really irks her is that others are not prepared to lie in the interests of "championing South Africa".

val50

Sorry to crash the party at such a late stage, but have just read through all the posts on this thread. As you know, if you read my file in introduce yourself to the forum, we lived in Southern Africa for 20 years, 10 years in Johannesburg. We left because we wanted a future for our children and were given an opportunity to do that. I still go back when I can though and I was back fairly recently for the funeral of some friends who were murdered. So many points have been raised that it's hard to know where to start.
One of subjects mentioned by Gilliana was the comparison between the health care in UK to SA. I've worked as a registered nurse in both countries.
I worked in paediatrics at Garden City hospital in Jhb, and saw things there that will haunt me to my dying day. Toddlers shot through the head, babies raped etc. We had to turn away dying babies because their parents didn't have medical aid. My friends son had leukemia, and when their medical aid ran out he has transferred to what was then Jhb General, where he died in the most appalling conditions that led to his mom having a nervous breakdown. You can never tell me the NHS is that bad.
The point I want to make though is that you talk about all the things waiting for you back home, how wonderful it is, compared to the different set of values in UK etc. What about the kids in the townships, roaming around all day, no jobs, no social security,no private education, healthcare that is a joke. Many orphaned because their parents couldn't afford treatment for TB, HIV/AIDS? Overcrowded kombi's, public transport, train service, not to mention electricity providers that can't keep up with demand.
Inflation that is rising and a Rand that is weakening will only help make the situation worse. We have friends in Jhb who have finally decided to leave, but now find they can't sell their house because the market is so bad.
You are living in a parallel universe when you describe you life in SA, completely ignoring the lives of millions who also live there but aren't as lucky as you or you family. Turning to crime is no excuse, but when your back is against the wall, what other choice do you have. Life becomes cheap and meaningless. That is one of the realities of living in South Africa today.
Homesickness is one thing, delusion is another. How many of us know South Africans just like the person you come across as? You love your country and that is good, but you have no idea of what life is like there for the majority of your countrymen.
Someone living in UK, who has probably never lived in another country, very niave and innocent, can never, ever be prepared for how life is in SA, however much they read information on the internet, use forums like this etc. I feel the frustration and despair of those who regularly post on here every time a newcomer asks the old familiar questions - will I be safe, can I live in a gated community, is the healthcare good??? Of course it is, if you have the money and resources to give you the protection you need. But, at the end of the day, is it really worth taking such a risk, especially if you have children?

foreverhoping1

Was the colonial era such a bad thing (in contrast to today)?

Pugsy

Perhaps Gilliana, because when I hear of some newbie wanting to go and work on an AIDS program in the townships and planning to use local taxi's I go WTF. Perhaps as a wife, mother and victime of home invasion in the dead of night tucked up safely I do not wish other people to experience the reality of what I have experienced.

40 Home invasions a day, carjackings, the culture of rape, rape, rape. The devastating RTA statistics. I'm sorry it cannot be avoided. And it is a price I will never pay again. When young women laiden with a couple of kids and workaholic husband ask if they will be safe if they lock their car doors, I'm like again!!

I love SA, but the SA I love is gone, lost. I did everything I could to 'help' the country while I was there, you might even say I had hope - only to be stabbed in the back. I have a very clear conscience, unlike I would if I was falsely championing a lost country, especially to those with children who really are drastically ignorant. If my words or news links can prevent someone making a mistake by believing all the rose tints, then forgive me, but I am well pleased.

It is a shame that your experience of the UK is so negative, your area and public resources sound less than desireable. We split our time between Southern Spain and Wales, two absolute beauties. The view of the Gibraltar Strait, Africa a few miles beyond and the Rock on a clear day, or Rhossili/Three Cliffs on the Gower are even more breathtaking than Table Mountain. We are priviledged and lucky and our experience of both is of the best of both (in Spain we go private, but in the UK we have excellent state resources) but I can tell you that my children will not grow up in SA. My kids play on deserted beaches, we rollerblade wide quiet streets. We sleep sound at night. We don't break into a cold sweat or ready the guns when the dogs bark at night. My kids are innocent, they know nothing of the horrors of SA and will not until I deem them old enough (probably never - why should they know that burglars rape women and children or set fire to people or iron them?!). When they glance a local paper here it is filled with council rubbish, the occasional bike stolen, purse stolen, etc. I remember my parents hiding the JHB newspapers from me as a teenager, eventually we became as apathetic as them. Until it gets closer and closer and closer and the last one, hopefully if you don't die, the penny finally drops. It is only a country, there are plenty of those, plenty more beautiful than SA, with greater opportunities and without the risks.

It is madness for a family to go to SA, madness. My own close family have all left, all the extended family wish they could, but they make the best of it and have happy lives, but they are informed at least and protect themselves as best they can. But they tell us, don't ever come back. No worries there, I never will.

TigerOC

I found the whole thread very interesting as an outsider looking in on the arguments - gilliana vs the rest.

My first observation is that the difference of opinion between gilliana and the others relates to 2 factors;

1. age -most of the vs are of the older generation and are more "street wise" and hence very conscious of their own mortality. They also value their links to the family. When you are young(ish) you are prepared to take big risks because you haven't been really traumatised yet.

Hell I had that attitude too and thought I was immortal until I attended a terrorist attack on a family in Rhodesia and saw 2 children, father, mother and 90 year old grandmother lying dead in their home. I suddenly realised that could be me and my family.

2. The younger SA generation have been conditioned by the new regime. I have been out of RSA for 10 years now and spent a month there for my daughters wedding. I was quite astounded at the level of subversion and how in some ways they are almost apologetic for being white.

I was also horrified by how they live. My daughter is a CA and her husband, an engineer. They have huge salaries and live in a very beautiful home behind Kearsney College on Botha's Hill. Guess what, the interior of their double story home is sectioned off by security gates so that if an intruder does penetrate the house he will have to go through all these locked sections before he can get to them (aka jail not home). Living in rural Devon with little or no crime I asked my daughter why she would even contemplate living like this. For the money. We don't talk about RSA any more because she will not hear a bad word spoken about it.

You see its all perspective; the older generation remember what it was like when things were normal and you had quality of life and low crime. The younger generation don't remember this and have become conditioned to the "New RSA" and have been imbued with a guilt complex by the new regime.

To the original poster if you have even bothered to continue monitoring this; my advice is give it a miss you are not equipped to live in the new RSA and especially not that area which has to be the Wild West of RSA

val50

I agree with your observations TigerOC, and I can sympathise with your position with your daughter. Our eldest was considering a move back to Grahamstown but has thankfully accepted a job in Vietnam instead.
I think one other thing to remember as well is that this is a British Expat forum. The OP was British, living in UK, and the majority of replies came from British expats who have had personal experience of living in SA. The British outlook and perspective is obviously going to differ to that of someone who is South African, but is probably more relevant when answering queries from someone who is contemplating making the same move so many of us have already done.

Tegwyn

I'm glad to hear that Val. I would be beside myself if my kids decided they wanted to head to SA.

Juggernaut

You guys had your experiences in S.A and hated it .Gillianna had hers in the UK .If youre able to sound off at every opportunity why cant she. Is your little pity party to be only by invitation ??

That type of condescension stems from your perspective, not everybodys. Things were never normal in S.A. The older generation, as you call them, long for a time when their happiness was built on the misery of others.

Most young south african have found a way of respecting the past. Remembering but not dwelling on it.

Following our past 80 +yrs a transition of this magnitude was never going to be easy .Where in the world has it been ?

TigerOC

Well again that is your "condescending" perspective. I talk about normal as in Western values where there is respect for Law and Order, the State and civilised standards. Of course Africa has different standards; necklacing for refusing to comply with what the ANC required of you before the transition and just plain uncontrolled killing, rape and mayhem afterwards. I know what kind of life I prefer and have followed the preference

By being threatened by "Truth and Reconciliation" and then subjected to the continual barrage of ANC propaganda telling you how bad you were (if you are white)? That's not finding a way that's brain washing or being a victim of organised propaganda.

True but the majority should have got passed this stage by now. But then again you have the arch-typical African political situation where the Politicians and their hangers on are riding the gravy train with corruption and tyranny and the poor are probably in a worse situation than they were before this started. Just look at the xenophobic killings; Mbeki's support for the tyrant Mugabe and your future President charged with multiple instances of graft and then top it off with the Cape AG now accused of trying to subvert a hearing in this regard in the Constitutional Court. This is all typical of Africa.

So all in all what is currently coming out of Africa is; We have our own standards of civilisation which include mindless violence, killing, and graft so just leave us alone to get on with it. Previously they were crying to all the Human Rights organisations, Liberal Governments and World Council of Churches about the same things. Make up your minds because you are displaying total hypocrisy right now and perhaps the West is finally seeing African democracy for what it really is; a sham intended to enrich greedy, corrupt Politicians in the name of Democracy.

Pablo

... As far as I can tell, she is free to "sound off" all she wants about the hellhole that the Home Counties are. No one has muzzled her.

Classic sub-Marxist ANC propaganda. If anyone ever makes something of themselves, it is because they have "exploited" others; and if they fail, it is because they are discriminated against. It's this mindset that has got black Africa into the mess it is currently stuck in.

Au contraire, Juggernaut, the ANC and its lackeys harp on about nothing else. If anything is ever wrong, blame apartheid and the racists.

Does it not occur to you that some of the idiotic policies the ANC have followed might be the cause of the breakdown? Wink at corruption. Drive out skills. Implement racist policy under the guise of "transformation". Scream "traitor" at anyone who dares to speak out. And lo! After twenty years you end up with a "transformed society" just like Zimbabwe.

Juggernaut

There you go again "Western values" , "Civilised Standards", "Respect for Law and order" .Think of the south africans you know family ,friends .Do they have no values , are they uncivilised do they have a total disrespect for law and order .I know I dont .So how do you manage to paint all South Africans with that brush ?

yes we had a Truth and Reconciliation commision. Hailed the world over as a important milestone to overcoming and dealing with our past. Do you need anyone telling you how bad you were. Are Germans being brain washed when their children are told what transpired in Nazi Germany. Are Rwandans being brainwashed when they have days of remembrance for the hutu tutsi genocide. "Lest we forget" .

How do you propose the "majority" gets past this stage ? .Shrug it off as a bad dream and move on. Not even one generation have passed. Persons still alive today were forcefully removed from their homes ,had land expropriated ,were detained without trial ,had sons and brothers killed and dumped at locations never disclosed to family.

Many on this site who have lost loved ones knows that moving on is easier said than done.

val50

[QUOTE=Juggernaut;6547761]You guys had your experiences in S.A and hated it .


This is just not true at all. The majority of British expats who contribute to this forum were very happy living in South Africa and never hated it. It is the fact many of us had no choice but to leave that makes us so sad. As I've said before, it is difficult for other's living in the UK to contemplate what life might be like there now, which is why we try to give some insight.

Pablo

Juggernaut, none of what you say justifies the corruption, the jobs-for-the-boys, the support for Mugabe, and the rest. If racism and institutionalized discrimination are wrong, then they are wrong - it's no good dressing it up as "black economic empowerment" or "transformation" or "affirmative action."