Pablo

...As you say, emotive and "fuzzy". Fine, but all you are saying is that you like it and that is where your family is. A person can say that about anywhere.

Then rather than all this fuzzy emoting, why don't you tell them what *is* actually "realistic"?

How do you know you are not "seeing one very [good] side and focussing on that"? What makes you so sure that your assessment is objective and true, and everyone else's is wrong?

Fine. Don't. That's ok by me.

Oh yes, "there's crime everywhere". Now how did I forget that?

Johannesburg, judging by your rose-tinted description.

Oh, that's it, is it? "South Africa is part of Africa". Now why didn't that ever occur to anyone?

Then how do you explain that poverty, and inequality, have been far worse in many places, and yet no crime?

No, they are a superficial self-serving analysis of the "facts" in order to explain away the ongoing failure of the ANC government.

Some people would rather be honest than lie for the sake of some emotional sense of nationalism or loyalty to a concept, or in order to make themselves into some sort of "champion for South Africa" (whatever that is). I would rather be a champion for what is true and honest and fair, and pulling the wool over the eyes of innocent or naive potential emigrants is not part of that.

True. And some people get tired of that.

gilliana

[QUOTE=Pablo;6540398]...
How do you know you are not "seeing one very [good] side and focussing on that"? What makes you so sure that your assessment is objective and true, and everyone else's is wrong?

QUOTE]

I didnt say mine was "true" - you think SA is hell - I don't...?? Who is "everyone"? the minority on this thread that condemn SA? or everyone you know who also hates SA? you and i could argue till the cows come home because we stand on different sides of the fence.

Pablo

I have no idea which side of "the fence" you are supposed to be on, because you have nothing to say that has any content. You have nothing to say about the Aids holocaust; you have nothing to say about the corruption and failure that has permeated all aspects of government; you have nothing to say about Mbeki's disgraceful support for the butcher Mugabe; you have nothing to say to those who ask about their personal safety, or the safety of their families. You have nothing to say about the state of the education system, or the health system.

You put words in my mouth, and pretend I have said what I have not said. You make vague generalized references to my posts, without addressing anything specific.

Now, when challenged, you just back out with the pathetic excuse that "we stand on different sides of the fence" (what rot!) and that "you and I could argue till the cows come home."

Yet another mindless drive-by.

gilliana

You said:
Then rather than all this fuzzy emoting, why don't you tell them what *is* actually "realistic"?

The reality is people still live there: some by choice, some because they do not have the qualifications or money to emigrate. And because of this, they make the best of it. Life is not all hard clinical facts - we are made up of emotions too.

You said: Oh yes, "there's crime everywhere". Now how did I forget that?

Why be sarcastic ? in your other post you say i was typing childish drivel...and i didnt have anything intelligent to say...err.... pot kettle black

You said: Johannesburg, judging by your rose-tinted description.

There you go again.........

You said Oh, that's it, is it? "South Africa is part of Africa". Now why didn't that ever occur to anyone?

And again..........


You said: Then how do you explain that poverty, and inequality, have been far worse in many places, and yet no crime?

Example?

Pablo

And if you bothered to read what I have said, rather than just mouthing off, you would see that I have said this, many times, on this list. The same can be said of Iraq, North Korea, or wherever you like.

...And doesn't your aggressive and unjustified suggestion that I have my own website called "I hate South Africa" or whatever silly name you suggested not smack of sarcasm?

Then address the arguments, and stop sniping.

Yes. You present this as an argument. It is nothing but a bland and banal statement of the obvious. Or if you mean something specific by it, then say so. South Africa is part of Africa. France is part of Europe. China is part of Asia. So what?

South Wales, in the 1930s had crushing poverty, but almost no crime. Other parts of Africa. SA itself, in the past. Since you are now living in the UK, then consider the current spate of knife crime. Are these people wracked by such appalling poverty that they can do nothing but kill? No, of course they are not. Poverty is not the cause of crime. That is nothing but modern trendy sociology-speak, which you seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker. It is also the wearisome and self-serving line that the ANC likes to trot out.

gilliana

i first commented re CRIME... and how that British lady must be soiling herself going to Joburg.

I didnt realise there was actually a list going......AIDs, ZIM, HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION etc etc... ??

Mmmm...spend my sunday evening typing to a sardonic soapbox orator...no thanks.

Pablo

Like I said, just another drive-by. Off you go then. Any fool can cry "I love South Africa", but that is not the kind of facts that emigrants need. And just because you are prepared to lie and distort in order to "champion South Africa" doesn't mean that others should.

You would see, if you bothered to look (and of course you're not bothered) that posters have given all manner of detail on this list about emigrating to, and living in, South Africa, both bad and good. To listen to you, however, you would think that the crime and the other aspects of social and governmental breakdown just did not exist, or were so utterly remote as not to matter at all. And you call this honesty!

Bye.

gilliana

The current crime in Uk... these knife-weilding youngsters come from poor dysfunctional homes - there is a lot of psychology behind why this is occurring - youngsters with no role models, left to their own devices while both or one parent is working 2 jobs, shoplifting, getting into juvenile homes and it spirals from there. The underlying issue...is poverty. Not poverty as Africa knows it, not poverty as described by the UN (living on less than $1 a day) but people who come from reduced circumstances. It is just a million times worse in SA. And its a big problem to solve.
Look at the coloured townships. During apartheid, the coloureds were relocated to townships with little/none facilities i.e. recreational parks etc...poor standard of education if any, and kids left with nothing to do. Parents going to work treated like 2nd class citizens and coming home with little money. That does a lot of psychological damage to a father with 3 kids to feed. The father starts drinking, domestic abuse..the kids walk the streets...gangs form....crime happens...people get hungry...people get desperate...it happens everywhere.. now that situation (albeit different takes and starting forms) it happens everywhere. SA you have x million people in townships living on the bread line...

Ok thats it I'm done here.

I'll leave you to handle the forum and spread the word.

Pablo

This is the assumption the sociologists and criminologists like to make, but since they haven't even found many of these knife attackers, it is no more than an assumption based on their model of what causes crime. So the argument is entirely circular.

...And a lot of psycho-babble too, trying to justify it. For example, since these sociologists and criminologists are convinced in advance that crime is caused by poverty, then when they find crime occurring when there is no poverty, they then redefine poverty to suit - thus we have "relative poverty" and other such sophistries.

(I note in passing that you seem now to acknowledge the appalling level of violent crime in South Africa, even if we disagree about the causes. You just think that we should not mention it to people in case it puts them off emigrating there.)

gilliana

wow...so you're not a criminologist or psychologist - their findings, and years of research amount to assumptions? research and investigation is about identifying the general trend / the common denominator. That is what i am referring to.. and i also did not say ALL CRIME on this planet. There are motivating reasons for everything. We are talking about SA. I was commenting on the harsh comments. We all know there is crime. But people are not being stupid or naive asking the question "will i be scared" - this is where my comments started. Look at the big mess that was left after apartheid. Life was good during apartheid. But on the downside we were condemned by the rest of the world, sanctioned etc etc...Mandela played his hand in preventing a civil war in 1992. Had he come out of prison and Toy-toyied to get the whites back, a bloodbath would've broken out. People left then. People starting leaving in 1976... we are so many years down the line and people are leaving / returning. I'm not here to state facts and figures. Go to wikipedia. You go to a forum to voice and read opinions. My opinion was the comments were very hectic. I would be interested, Pablo, to know where you live. I read most of your comments and you are very anti-South Africa. You have your reasons. But if you are a born and bred Saffer, why down your country so much... if things have happened to you and your family, its understandable that you would not want to live there. But let people have the opportunity to experience SA. It is not hell on earth.

Pablo

And my response to that poster's question was that whether "I will be scared" is subjective. And others suggested that the OP look at the newsfeeds and elsewhere to get a feel for herself.

Wikipedia? Oh please! As for the rest, you once again put words in my mouth.

This is rather like telling someone who criticised Hitler and the Nazis that they were anti-German.

You present a deliberately distorted picture of what I say, and then attack that distorted picture. It is known as a straw-man argument. But you have nothing of substance to say. You attack, and then retreat and claim you are merely expressing "opinion", you claim you are giving "facts", and then claim that you are not here to give facts.

Worst of all, you expect others to lie in order to "champion South Africa".

gilliana

But i do love South Africa? I dont understand what you mean by a drive-by? If a foreigner asked me about moving to SA - yeah, its expensive, you may want to look at private schooling, there is crime, and perhaps refer them to read up on it cos its rife. But i would never say "suck it...." i was shocked at your remark to a complete foreigner; of course you cannot guarantee her safety with any comment, but you come across as really grating.

Where do i pretend these SA issues dont exist???? Just because i have a bit of hope about my country? Because I dont think its all gone to the dogs and everyone should leave asap? Should i hate SA cos it has major issues. Sorry i dont work like that... I do see positive amongst negative and yes, i'm not blind, I do see the problems

I said i wouldnt entertain this any longer but its raining...so not much else to do!

Pablo

Oh for heaven's sake, "suck it and see" is a perfectly decent and legitimate expression, and I rather resent your attempt to put some sort of vulgar spin on it. I have said many times on this list that, in the end, a person needs to find out for himself, not only about South Africa, but about all the big questions in life.

As for the rest of your comments, I have spoken out about aspects of what the current regime is doing, and I shall continue to do so. "Loving South Africa" smacks of ignorant nationalism to me, and I will have no truck with it. As I said to you before, calling me anti-South African is like calling someone anti-German because they dared to criticise the Nazis and Hitler.

gilliana

lie? no..i am just very surprised...perhaps very shocked cos i didnt know people hated SA so much. I've heard negativity but not to the extent that i've read on this forum. I am in UK and you hear "howzit" around every street corner...and so many are homesick, some are determined to stay etc... and you go to the Mandela concert - it was just a sea of SA flags...people are in UK to make money, perhaps find another way of life - but in their hearts they love SA. So reading your posts did jolt me a bit.

As a newcomer to the forum I noticed you posted a lot so i went to read all your posts. Thats why I want to know where you live? And were you born in SA?

gilliana

no no no no i didnt mean it like that... i read "suck it..." like someone saying "knock yourself out" - but just in an abrupt manner... probably not a good example but i definitely did not think you meant something vulgar...i just thought it was a pretty harsh response... If i was enquiring re me living in UK re a work transfer and a pom told me to suck it and see...it would take it as a very hostile comment.