How do people react under pressure.
Apr 9th 2009, 10:15 pm
#16
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Re: How do people react under pressure.
Irrespective, my question to Juggernaut on this post was given the circumstance and accepted there was a lot of tostesterone and adrenalin flowing on the day, what should the Col have done?
They had gone in to re-inforce 12 men, which in light of Cato Manor they had to do.
To abandon or withdraw would have given a propaganda victory and weakened the position of the Police .
I know with hindsights 20/20 vision what I would have done but also know how dificult it is to make the correct snap decision 110% of the time.
It still does'nt tell me what Sharpeville has to do with yoing men cruising in a VW Golf GTi who are possible hi-jackers?
They had gone in to re-inforce 12 men, which in light of Cato Manor they had to do.
To abandon or withdraw would have given a propaganda victory and weakened the position of the Police .
I know with hindsights 20/20 vision what I would have done but also know how dificult it is to make the correct snap decision 110% of the time.
It still does'nt tell me what Sharpeville has to do with yoing men cruising in a VW Golf GTi who are possible hi-jackers?
Juggernaut? will this take long?
Apr 15th 2009, 11:47 am
#17
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Re: How do people react under pressure.
Please forgive my tardiness Daxk. Unfortunately commenting on this forum is far from being my first priority.
Thanks for that thread Stanley ,most enlightening. Firstly none of us were there. Lets look at a eye witness account of the proceedings. One I dare say thats a family friend of Daxk thus clearly reliable.
Eye witness
you : 
Firstly you're clearly grasping at straws my friend. The eyewitness account clearly put the crowd at about 2000 MAYBE 3000. Your count puts the crowd at 7000, nearly double that. Deliberate deception ?
Eye witness
you :
A young, white reporter as green as the young constables present was walking in the midst of the crowd. He didnt sense any hostility in that crowd. I would have expected a Police Colonel to be able to assess such a situation and command his men accordingly.
Eye witness
you :
I'll tell you why you dont condone it ,because you cant. Who turned into the killing machine on this day ?
Lets say a stone was lobbed at the police and we dont know that it was but I'll humour you. There was 300 police officers some were standing on Saracen Tanks all armed with machine guns ,side arms shotguns and the like.
Your supposition ,a "green" officer let of a few rounds accidentally into the crowd. Men, women and children drop dead to the ground.
- What does every other officer do -take aim into the fleeing crowd and shoot until their 5 rounds are depleted.
You ask what I would have done ? What would any reasonable police officer normally do . Fire warning shots above the crowd.
When people run away from you ceasing fire would be a good idea. but thats just me.
Fact:
Sixty-nine people were killed, including eight women and ten children, and of the 180 people who were wounded, thirty-one were women and nineteen were children. According to the evidence of medical practitioners it is clear that the police continued firing after the people began to flee: for, while thirty shots had entered the wounded or killed from the front of their bodies no less than 155 bullets had entered the bodies of the injured and killed from their backs.
So there were five times more people killed or injured by shots from behind.
Daxk, explain that.
but wait theres more.
77 black africans were later arrested in connection with the Sharpeville demonstration. Some of them still in hospital.
Would you have fired live ammo indiscriminately into the back of fleeing women and children ?
Why was no warning shots fired ?
Why did it take 705 rounds fired before it became clear that any threat have been averted long ago ?
Could the killings have been merely revenge for the Cato Manor murders dressed up as riot control?
"Lets show these natives whos boss"
Why was no police officer or commander that was present ion the day ever held responsible? Bearing in mind not a single officer was killed or wounded that day.
-Your turn Daxk.
Thanks for that thread Stanley ,most enlightening. Firstly none of us were there. Lets look at a eye witness account of the proceedings. One I dare say thats a family friend of Daxk thus clearly reliable.
Eye witness
We were left being the only people there, the only reporters, and it was not a very big crowd - I suppose two or three thousand people maybe. But it was not at all difficult for me to force my way to the fence and photograph the police inside, standing on their saracens and so on.
Hey Stanley, Reading Ian Berry's account again,3000-7000 (depending on who is doing the counting)
Eye witness
"I am a Magnum photographer. My name is Ian Berry. At the time of Sharpeville in 1960 I was a young photographer in my early twenties, recently arrived in South Africa.
So I stuck around for a little while, shot off a roll of film, and then thought I'd amble back to the car, we'd go and find a telephone and see if there was anything else happening anywhere else.
We were discussing Lt Col Pine Pienaars actions at Sharpeville 1960 when he instructed his green 19-25 year old Constables to load 5 rounds into their Automatic Sten guns when faced with 5000 chanting, ululating protestors, shaking and waving a fence that had the strength of a Schachat Cullum back yard fence.
Eye witness
Just before I got back to the car, suddenly the shooting started. I was a bit flummoxed at first. I didn't know quite what was happening. I only had a couple of Leikas, with a wide-angle lens and a normal lens around my neck and so, as people were running towards me I dropped on to the grass, I thought that was probably the wisest thing to do, and photographed the people running towards me. People started to fall as they were running. There were boys running towards me, holding their coats above their heads as though to protect themselves from bullets. I don't they were fully aware of what was happening. I could see people dropping all over the place. The shooting paused briefly. I saw the police standing on the saracens, reloading their sten guns and so I dropped down again, and the police started to shoot again. This time, they were really just shooting into the backs of people fleeing. Nobody was obviously sticking around. Everyone was running away.
Again, I remind you that I am NOT Condoning or excusing what happened,
I have seen a crowd turn from Laughing, singing ,cheering happy faces into a killing machine in the space of a few minutes.
I have seen a crowd turn from Laughing, singing ,cheering happy faces into a killing machine in the space of a few minutes.
Lets say a stone was lobbed at the police and we dont know that it was but I'll humour you. There was 300 police officers some were standing on Saracen Tanks all armed with machine guns ,side arms shotguns and the like.
Your supposition ,a "green" officer let of a few rounds accidentally into the crowd. Men, women and children drop dead to the ground.
- What does every other officer do -take aim into the fleeing crowd and shoot until their 5 rounds are depleted.
You ask what I would have done ? What would any reasonable police officer normally do . Fire warning shots above the crowd.
When people run away from you ceasing fire would be a good idea. but thats just me.
Fact:
Sixty-nine people were killed, including eight women and ten children, and of the 180 people who were wounded, thirty-one were women and nineteen were children. According to the evidence of medical practitioners it is clear that the police continued firing after the people began to flee: for, while thirty shots had entered the wounded or killed from the front of their bodies no less than 155 bullets had entered the bodies of the injured and killed from their backs.
So there were five times more people killed or injured by shots from behind.
Daxk, explain that.
but wait theres more.
77 black africans were later arrested in connection with the Sharpeville demonstration. Some of them still in hospital.
Would you have fired live ammo indiscriminately into the back of fleeing women and children ?
Why was no warning shots fired ?
Why did it take 705 rounds fired before it became clear that any threat have been averted long ago ?
Could the killings have been merely revenge for the Cato Manor murders dressed up as riot control?
"Lets show these natives whos boss"
Why was no police officer or commander that was present ion the day ever held responsible? Bearing in mind not a single officer was killed or wounded that day.
-Your turn Daxk.
Apr 15th 2009, 1:15 pm
#18
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Re: How do people react under pressure.
Juggernaut, lets stick to this thread, I asked what you would have done,
However as a courtesy I will answer your points.
"I'll tell you why you dont condone it ,because you cant. Who turned into the killing machine on this day ?"
The SAP Commander lost control of the situation and more importantly, the people under his command.
Inexcusable but I've been there.Fortunately for me the only Casualty was a puff adder.
However, I am not trying to justify it or excuse it, even tho you are trying hard to get me to do so.
"Lets say a stone was lobbed at the police and we dont know that it was but I'll humour you. There was 300 police officers some were standing on Saracen Tanks all armed with machine guns ,side arms shotguns and the like."
At the Sharpeville Commomerative exhibition of Ian Berry's Photo's held at Wits there are a large number of stones and half-bricks within the Police Compound as well as on the ground amongst the running figures.
The Ground around the Police compound was used as a Soccer Fields, perhaps the stones migrated there.
"Your supposition ,a "green" officer let of a few rounds accidentally into the crowd. Men, women and children drop dead to the ground.
- What does every other officer do -take aim into the fleeing crowd and shoot until their 5 rounds are depleted."
A number of shots go off, from a notoriously unstable firearm, shots fired, the SAP officers cannot see what is going on, they panic and open fire, Commands of any sort including Ceasefire are incredibly difficult to hear when Crowds are shouting or when there is a lot of gunfire around
300 Officers each loading at least 5 rounds as per Command, thats 1500 rounds, 705 rounds fired..
"You ask what I would have done ? What would any reasonable police officer normally do . Fire warning shots above the crowd.
When people run away from you ceasing fire would be a good idea. but thats just me.
"Fact:
Sixty-nine people were killed, including eight women and ten children, and of the 180 people who were wounded, thirty-one were women and nineteen were children. According to the evidence of medical practitioners it is clear that the police continued firing after the people began to flee: for, while thirty shots had entered the wounded or killed from the front of their bodies no less than 155 bullets had entered the bodies of the injured and killed from their backs.
So there were five times more people killed or injured by shots from behind."
But Juggernaut, why cant you understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I have likened it to My Lai and other massacres.
I Said"Stanley, I dont know, it rates along with My lai and the Israeli one ,
As massacres go, I think the SADF ones against Civilians in Botswana, Maseru and Maputo and the car bomb in Bulawayo were far worse as they were conducted with cold blooded planning."
It was inexcusable, the Lt Col should have been stripped of his rank and shot.
That was'nt what the Discussion I challenged you to was about.
but wait theres more.
"77 black africans were later arrested in connection with the Sharpeville demonstration. Some of them still in hospital.
Would you have fired live ammo indiscriminately into the back of fleeing women and children ?
Why was no warning shots fired ?
Why did it take 705 rounds fired before it became clear that any threat have been averted long ago ?
Could the killings have been merely revenge for the Cato Manor murders dressed up as riot control?
"Lets show these natives whos boss"
Why was no police officer or commander that was present ion the day ever held responsible? Bearing in mind not a single officer was killed or wounded that day. "
In Short, The Govt Panicked, they used the heavy handed approach many times since Sharpeville too.
No, but I and any other Combat Officer will tell you that when the firing starts it becomes difficult to stop.
The Load Command was for 5 rounds each was 1500 Rounds,in addition as you point out the Saracens (which are'nt tanks btw,they are actually lower and smaller than than the 4x4's in the Carpark at Sandton City) were armed with .303 Vickers machine guns which could have spewed out 600 rounds per minute each
705 shots fired divided by 300 is 2.35 shots each so more likely a few Officers panicked rather than all.
Bit of a conspiracy theory there, Juggernaut, no, Cato Manor would have been on any policemens mind yes but it would have added to the fear.
Again, I agree that those who fired as well as their Commander shoild have been prosecuted.
So at last we come to what Juggernaut would have done.
Can we agree on a thousand protestors?
Can we also agree that if Berry and Tyler heard shouting before the shooting that something was happening at the Fence and/or around the Saracens?
Juggernaut would have fired warning shots.
Scenario A) The Crowd backs off , threat averted.
Scenario B) The Shots which are going overhead inflame the crowd as they realise the Police are'nt prepared to fire on them.
Problem escalates.
So no, Juggernaut, you have fired your warning shots what do you do next?
The Crowd has'nt gone away, what do you do now?
However as a courtesy I will answer your points.
"I'll tell you why you dont condone it ,because you cant. Who turned into the killing machine on this day ?"
The SAP Commander lost control of the situation and more importantly, the people under his command.
Inexcusable but I've been there.Fortunately for me the only Casualty was a puff adder.
However, I am not trying to justify it or excuse it, even tho you are trying hard to get me to do so.
"Lets say a stone was lobbed at the police and we dont know that it was but I'll humour you. There was 300 police officers some were standing on Saracen Tanks all armed with machine guns ,side arms shotguns and the like."
At the Sharpeville Commomerative exhibition of Ian Berry's Photo's held at Wits there are a large number of stones and half-bricks within the Police Compound as well as on the ground amongst the running figures.
The Ground around the Police compound was used as a Soccer Fields, perhaps the stones migrated there.
"Your supposition ,a "green" officer let of a few rounds accidentally into the crowd. Men, women and children drop dead to the ground.
- What does every other officer do -take aim into the fleeing crowd and shoot until their 5 rounds are depleted."
A number of shots go off, from a notoriously unstable firearm, shots fired, the SAP officers cannot see what is going on, they panic and open fire, Commands of any sort including Ceasefire are incredibly difficult to hear when Crowds are shouting or when there is a lot of gunfire around
300 Officers each loading at least 5 rounds as per Command, thats 1500 rounds, 705 rounds fired..
"You ask what I would have done ? What would any reasonable police officer normally do . Fire warning shots above the crowd.
When people run away from you ceasing fire would be a good idea. but thats just me.
"Fact:
Sixty-nine people were killed, including eight women and ten children, and of the 180 people who were wounded, thirty-one were women and nineteen were children. According to the evidence of medical practitioners it is clear that the police continued firing after the people began to flee: for, while thirty shots had entered the wounded or killed from the front of their bodies no less than 155 bullets had entered the bodies of the injured and killed from their backs.
So there were five times more people killed or injured by shots from behind."
But Juggernaut, why cant you understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I have likened it to My Lai and other massacres.
I Said"Stanley, I dont know, it rates along with My lai and the Israeli one ,
As massacres go, I think the SADF ones against Civilians in Botswana, Maseru and Maputo and the car bomb in Bulawayo were far worse as they were conducted with cold blooded planning."
It was inexcusable, the Lt Col should have been stripped of his rank and shot.
That was'nt what the Discussion I challenged you to was about.
but wait theres more.
"77 black africans were later arrested in connection with the Sharpeville demonstration. Some of them still in hospital.
Would you have fired live ammo indiscriminately into the back of fleeing women and children ?
Why was no warning shots fired ?
Why did it take 705 rounds fired before it became clear that any threat have been averted long ago ?
Could the killings have been merely revenge for the Cato Manor murders dressed up as riot control?
"Lets show these natives whos boss"
Why was no police officer or commander that was present ion the day ever held responsible? Bearing in mind not a single officer was killed or wounded that day. "
In Short, The Govt Panicked, they used the heavy handed approach many times since Sharpeville too.
No, but I and any other Combat Officer will tell you that when the firing starts it becomes difficult to stop.
The Load Command was for 5 rounds each was 1500 Rounds,in addition as you point out the Saracens (which are'nt tanks btw,they are actually lower and smaller than than the 4x4's in the Carpark at Sandton City) were armed with .303 Vickers machine guns which could have spewed out 600 rounds per minute each
705 shots fired divided by 300 is 2.35 shots each so more likely a few Officers panicked rather than all.
Bit of a conspiracy theory there, Juggernaut, no, Cato Manor would have been on any policemens mind yes but it would have added to the fear.
Again, I agree that those who fired as well as their Commander shoild have been prosecuted.
So at last we come to what Juggernaut would have done.
Can we agree on a thousand protestors?
Can we also agree that if Berry and Tyler heard shouting before the shooting that something was happening at the Fence and/or around the Saracens?
Juggernaut would have fired warning shots.
Scenario A) The Crowd backs off , threat averted.
Scenario B) The Shots which are going overhead inflame the crowd as they realise the Police are'nt prepared to fire on them.
Problem escalates.
So no, Juggernaut, you have fired your warning shots what do you do next?
The Crowd has'nt gone away, what do you do now?
Apr 15th 2009, 5:37 pm
#19
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Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 288
Re: How do people react under pressure.
Everything needs to be looked at in context so let me start here in explaining my answer.
Even though you keep on saying you dont condone or excuse their actions why do you keep on mentioning the excuse that the sten is a notoriously unstable firearm .Yet it was their firearms, they knew its limitations and capability .
I'd like to load my weapon take aim at someone and shoot at point blank range then base my defence on my unstable firearm. Cmon Daxk, try the other one.
,
More excuses.If youre standing behind a number of men, so many in number that you cant see whats going on, as you say.Wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that you cannot possibly have a clear line of fire. So those officers didnt do the shooting.
The ones right in front and on top of the saracens tanks with clear sight but dark hearts did the shooting.That also rubbishes your assertation that each man fired a paltry 2,35 rounds. So I put it to you that the few that was in any position to fire in that cramped police station finished their entire alloted rounds.
BTW I have attached a link to a pic of a Saracen, in case someone out there was taken in by your glib dismissal of the saracen as a recreational vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saracen
Granted its hard to hear anything with bullets wizzing all around in a gun fight.but this was no gun fight . One side had guns and the other side was according to all reports even the inept Colonel himself, unarmed. So my dear Daxk as an ex military man yourself when you are shooting at people and I assume you have .When they turn on their heels and running for their lives would you really need somebody to yell cease fire before you would stop shooting civilians in the back?
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it.
To answer your question.
By your admission above we seem to agree on the following :
1)a massacre took place.
2)The colonel through incompetance, malice or both handled the situation in the wrongest possible way.
thus:
A reasonable assumption would be that another commander could have done things differently and maybe averted a catastrophe.yes?
The queston begs, what?
ScenarioA is the only possible outcome. I'll tell you why.
1)People fled as soon as the shooting started. a point proven by the majority of people being shot in the back.
2)Youre standing unarmed in front of fully armed, battle ready South African police force.
I mention South African because everyone gathered there on that day kney what the police force of the day was capable of.
The fact that no officer was prosecuted proves the point that the police force of the day could and did act with impunity daily. You know it ,I know it and those protesters knew it all too well.
So I ask you why would that crowd for one moment, seeing the polices willingness to fire not believe they would be fired on next and no questions would be asked.
Only those with a death wish would not have backed down.
A number of shots go off, from a notoriously unstable firearm
I'd like to load my weapon take aim at someone and shoot at point blank range then base my defence on my unstable firearm. Cmon Daxk, try the other one.
,
shots fired, the SAP officers cannot see what is going on, they panic and open fire,
The ones right in front and on top of the saracens tanks with clear sight but dark hearts did the shooting.That also rubbishes your assertation that each man fired a paltry 2,35 rounds. So I put it to you that the few that was in any position to fire in that cramped police station finished their entire alloted rounds.
BTW I have attached a link to a pic of a Saracen, in case someone out there was taken in by your glib dismissal of the saracen as a recreational vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saracen
Commands of any sort including Ceasefire are incredibly difficult to hear when Crowds are shouting or when there is a lot of gunfire around
300 Officers each loading at least 5 rounds as per Command, thats 1500 rounds, 705 rounds fired
300 Officers each loading at least 5 rounds as per Command, thats 1500 rounds, 705 rounds fired
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it.
To answer your question.
But Juggernaut, why cant you understand that I am not disagreeing with you, I have likened it to My Lai and other massacres.
I Said"Stanley, I dont know, it rates along with My lai and the Israeli one ,
As massacres go, I think the SADF ones against Civilians in Botswana, Maseru and Maputo and the car bomb in Bulawayo were far worse as they were conducted with cold blooded planning."
It was inexcusable, the Lt Col should have been stripped of his rank and shot.
That was'nt what the Discussion I challenged you to was about.
I Said"Stanley, I dont know, it rates along with My lai and the Israeli one ,
As massacres go, I think the SADF ones against Civilians in Botswana, Maseru and Maputo and the car bomb in Bulawayo were far worse as they were conducted with cold blooded planning."
It was inexcusable, the Lt Col should have been stripped of his rank and shot.
That was'nt what the Discussion I challenged you to was about.
1)a massacre took place.
2)The colonel through incompetance, malice or both handled the situation in the wrongest possible way.
thus:
A reasonable assumption would be that another commander could have done things differently and maybe averted a catastrophe.yes?
The queston begs, what?
Juggernaut would have fired warning shots.
Scenario A) The Crowd backs off , threat averted.
Scenario B) The Shots which are going overhead inflame the crowd as they realise the Police are'nt prepared to fire on them.
Problem escalates.
So no, Juggernaut, you have fired your warning shots what do you do next?
The Crowd has'nt gone away, what do you do now?
Scenario A) The Crowd backs off , threat averted.
Scenario B) The Shots which are going overhead inflame the crowd as they realise the Police are'nt prepared to fire on them.
Problem escalates.
So no, Juggernaut, you have fired your warning shots what do you do next?
The Crowd has'nt gone away, what do you do now?
1)People fled as soon as the shooting started. a point proven by the majority of people being shot in the back.
2)Youre standing unarmed in front of fully armed, battle ready South African police force.
I mention South African because everyone gathered there on that day kney what the police force of the day was capable of.
Again, I agree that those who fired as well as their Commander shoild have been prosecuted.
So I ask you why would that crowd for one moment, seeing the polices willingness to fire not believe they would be fired on next and no questions would be asked.
Only those with a death wish would not have backed down.
Last edited by Juggernaut; Apr 15th 2009 at 5:56 pm.
Apr 15th 2009, 7:32 pm
#20
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Re: How do people react under pressure.
Juggernaut, I take cognisance of your ignorance about firearms.
and if you will bear with me I will try and explain.
all firearms have certain characteristics, the Sten Gun is a basic blowback with a spring return firearm.
It was an inexpensive,mass produced roughly engineered tool designed to be dropped en masse to the french maquis or resistance fighters during the second World war and once the trigger, which actuates through a small little hook is released, it will quite often continue firing till there is nothing left to fire.
It is known as the second greatest own goal scorer of the second World War
(If you are remotely interested the German Luger is the first as it can still fire when the barrel is removed from the trigger and handle but that one killed its cleaner usually)
Back to the sten which was given to the SAP and the Defense Force in large numbers.
If it is cocked and loaded, and you drop it it will go off, if you sneeze and tense it will go off,if you flex your finger slightly it will go off as it has a totally useless safety catch.
Lesson 2
If you go to Chubb or ADT Security, they both have Saracens they use for Shows, kindly park a Landrover Station Wagon next to it.
The only part that is taller is about 1 metre radius which is the top of the turret which is at 2.46m from the ground.
Next, I suggest you go to the Military Museum at the Zoo, it is a fascinating place, ask them about sten guns, climb into and on top of a Saracen.
Next,
Any Police Officer or Soldier does'nt get given a choice of what tools to use, they get issued to them.
The Current firearms the SAPS use are the cheapest tender available and jam often.
The Govt may have changed but the tender process is the same.
"So I put it to you that the few that was in any position to fire in that cramped police station finished their entire alloted rounds."
Yes,! I thought we were in agreement about this. not all fired and some panicked and lost their heads.
"Granted its hard to hear anything with bullets wizzing all around in a gun fight.but this was no gun fight . One side had guns and the other side was according to all reports even the inept Colonel himself, unarmed. So my dear Daxk as an ex military man yourself when you are shooting at people and I assume you have .When they turn on their heels and running for their lives would you really need somebody to yell cease fire before you would stop shooting civilians in the back?
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it."
Have you actually ever fired a gun?
What deafens you is not the bullet wizzing past (its actually a crack if its high enough ) its the deafening noise from the gun you are firing.
Go on ,Jugs, go down to Guthries range in Midrand, go pay some money and hire a firearm and a short course.
Know what? they wont let you fire without Sound Deadening Ear protection.
Because one shot in close proximity to your ears will deafen you for up to two hours, Juggernaut.
"So my dear Daxk as an ex military man yourself when you are shooting at people and I assume you have .When they turn on their heels and running for their lives would you really need somebody to yell cease fire before you would stop shooting civilians in the back?"
Jugs, I have some difficulty here, because you have just asked me a personal question.
My answer is have you ever been in a situation where killing is going on?
where you are under attack?
When you have dust and noise and danger you go to a very dark place that is within your genes from when Man first discovered that the Jawbone of yesterdays lunch made a very effective weapon.
Its a very strange muted place where you are hyper aware of the slightest thing,every blade of grass, every movement and no Jugs, when ,as the Zulu's said,the eyes go red, its a difficult thing to stop as you are thinking in a different plane at that nanosecond.
So, Jugs, the fact that you made that statement tells me you have never been there.
and anyone who has and is reading this is nodding head and agreeing.
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it.
I dont know, Juggernaut, I was playing on a foofie slide with my black Brother, remember.
I dont think that a policy decision was taken that if there is a large crowd a couple need to get shot.
But, as you said, lets look at this in context. (From the TRC Hearings)
The ANC were organising a protest Rally because Women had to carry the hated "passbook"
The PAC hi-jacked the idea and spread the word that the Police Commissioner was going to make a speech at the Compound and talk to the people about it.
People were "assisted" in getting off the buses and trains to attend the March
It was about Women hence the large amount of women with Children.
The Press were tipped off that something was going to happen
(I refer again to your quotations from Berry and Tyler , nothing was happening)
So we have a militant organisation which was sidelined organising a march, the Press are tipped off, its all peaceful, no hostility , damp squibb,
and suddenly there is shouting THEN Shooting.
Who actually had the Agenda here?
I think the PAC succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
What happens now after some more experience?
water cannons, riot gear so rocks dont hurt the security forces, rubber bullets?
Juggerrnaut has chosen option A, because the Mob will walk away after some warning shots?
This weekend in Natal when a Youth League Political meeting discussing crime
turned into a mob of 1000 approx who beat two to death set their shacks on fire and the SAPS officers got hurt and retreated?
The Pics from the Truck drivers strike, the SAPS Riot Squad are firing birdshot and rubber bullets at the Crowds who are all cowering down with their backs turned, there are people running away from the Cops at this months Protest in the Cape but the Cops are still firing.
Agreed its Rubber Bullets and Birdshot, Both can still kill you, there are women and children in all of those crowds too.
In 76 and 82 and 88, Juggernaut, it was Rocks and Bottles and Firearms,
They did'nt walk away from warning shots either.
You have no experience of these, Juggernaut, unless you were one of the Anon rioters, you come up with a solution which has'nt yet worked,
with 20/20 hindsight vision.
The Russian model works best.
You put snipers high up and they take out anyone who carries a gun or a molotov cocktail and you hope a passing drunk does'nt wander past
You look for the agitator, who is always at the back, for some strange reason.
The PAC did a superb job that day.
It is Textbook.
and if you will bear with me I will try and explain.
all firearms have certain characteristics, the Sten Gun is a basic blowback with a spring return firearm.
It was an inexpensive,mass produced roughly engineered tool designed to be dropped en masse to the french maquis or resistance fighters during the second World war and once the trigger, which actuates through a small little hook is released, it will quite often continue firing till there is nothing left to fire.
It is known as the second greatest own goal scorer of the second World War
(If you are remotely interested the German Luger is the first as it can still fire when the barrel is removed from the trigger and handle but that one killed its cleaner usually)
Back to the sten which was given to the SAP and the Defense Force in large numbers.
If it is cocked and loaded, and you drop it it will go off, if you sneeze and tense it will go off,if you flex your finger slightly it will go off as it has a totally useless safety catch.
Lesson 2
If you go to Chubb or ADT Security, they both have Saracens they use for Shows, kindly park a Landrover Station Wagon next to it.
The only part that is taller is about 1 metre radius which is the top of the turret which is at 2.46m from the ground.
Next, I suggest you go to the Military Museum at the Zoo, it is a fascinating place, ask them about sten guns, climb into and on top of a Saracen.
Next,
Any Police Officer or Soldier does'nt get given a choice of what tools to use, they get issued to them.
The Current firearms the SAPS use are the cheapest tender available and jam often.
The Govt may have changed but the tender process is the same.
"So I put it to you that the few that was in any position to fire in that cramped police station finished their entire alloted rounds."
Yes,! I thought we were in agreement about this. not all fired and some panicked and lost their heads.
"Granted its hard to hear anything with bullets wizzing all around in a gun fight.but this was no gun fight . One side had guns and the other side was according to all reports even the inept Colonel himself, unarmed. So my dear Daxk as an ex military man yourself when you are shooting at people and I assume you have .When they turn on their heels and running for their lives would you really need somebody to yell cease fire before you would stop shooting civilians in the back?
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it."
Have you actually ever fired a gun?
What deafens you is not the bullet wizzing past (its actually a crack if its high enough ) its the deafening noise from the gun you are firing.
Go on ,Jugs, go down to Guthries range in Midrand, go pay some money and hire a firearm and a short course.
Know what? they wont let you fire without Sound Deadening Ear protection.
Because one shot in close proximity to your ears will deafen you for up to two hours, Juggernaut.
"So my dear Daxk as an ex military man yourself when you are shooting at people and I assume you have .When they turn on their heels and running for their lives would you really need somebody to yell cease fire before you would stop shooting civilians in the back?"
Jugs, I have some difficulty here, because you have just asked me a personal question.
My answer is have you ever been in a situation where killing is going on?
where you are under attack?
When you have dust and noise and danger you go to a very dark place that is within your genes from when Man first discovered that the Jawbone of yesterdays lunch made a very effective weapon.
Its a very strange muted place where you are hyper aware of the slightest thing,every blade of grass, every movement and no Jugs, when ,as the Zulu's said,the eyes go red, its a difficult thing to stop as you are thinking in a different plane at that nanosecond.
So, Jugs, the fact that you made that statement tells me you have never been there.
and anyone who has and is reading this is nodding head and agreeing.
These guys had a point to make and they were going to make it.
I dont know, Juggernaut, I was playing on a foofie slide with my black Brother, remember.
I dont think that a policy decision was taken that if there is a large crowd a couple need to get shot.
But, as you said, lets look at this in context. (From the TRC Hearings)
The ANC were organising a protest Rally because Women had to carry the hated "passbook"
The PAC hi-jacked the idea and spread the word that the Police Commissioner was going to make a speech at the Compound and talk to the people about it.
People were "assisted" in getting off the buses and trains to attend the March
It was about Women hence the large amount of women with Children.
The Press were tipped off that something was going to happen
(I refer again to your quotations from Berry and Tyler , nothing was happening)
So we have a militant organisation which was sidelined organising a march, the Press are tipped off, its all peaceful, no hostility , damp squibb,
and suddenly there is shouting THEN Shooting.
Who actually had the Agenda here?
I think the PAC succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
What happens now after some more experience?
water cannons, riot gear so rocks dont hurt the security forces, rubber bullets?
Juggerrnaut has chosen option A, because the Mob will walk away after some warning shots?
This weekend in Natal when a Youth League Political meeting discussing crime
turned into a mob of 1000 approx who beat two to death set their shacks on fire and the SAPS officers got hurt and retreated?
The Pics from the Truck drivers strike, the SAPS Riot Squad are firing birdshot and rubber bullets at the Crowds who are all cowering down with their backs turned, there are people running away from the Cops at this months Protest in the Cape but the Cops are still firing.
Agreed its Rubber Bullets and Birdshot, Both can still kill you, there are women and children in all of those crowds too.
In 76 and 82 and 88, Juggernaut, it was Rocks and Bottles and Firearms,
They did'nt walk away from warning shots either.
You have no experience of these, Juggernaut, unless you were one of the Anon rioters, you come up with a solution which has'nt yet worked,
with 20/20 hindsight vision.
The Russian model works best.
You put snipers high up and they take out anyone who carries a gun or a molotov cocktail and you hope a passing drunk does'nt wander past
You look for the agitator, who is always at the back, for some strange reason.
The PAC did a superb job that day.
It is Textbook.
Apr 16th 2009, 11:03 am
#21
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: How do people react under pressure.
good post Daxk. It is a classic case....
Apr 16th 2009, 1:44 pm
#22
Member Delux
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 288
Re: How do people react under pressure.
Daxk youre not coming to the table with anything new my friend.
Youve used the excuse that the Sten gun is an unreliable weapon before. I believe you. How it works is really of no concern to me .Ex military men might however find your little lesson fascinating but its wasted on me.
let me make it simple for you. cause and effect.
I might not know anything about cars.
I buy a notoriously unreliable car because its dirt cheap.
I drive it daily and I'm aware that it has notoriously bad brakes.
Yet I drive recklessly.
Something unexpected happens and I plough through a few pedestrians.
Should all be forgiven because THE CAR is known to have bad brakes.
No I have never been and neither was those policemen.
"in a situation where killing is going on??? "
This was no combat situation ....This was a peacefull demonstration by persons agrieved by the carrying of passbooks -the equivalent of slave papers.
unarmed civilians- show me any bit of text to prove that they were armed.
-All the killing was done by one side.
WTF. Some might be nodding and agreeing but I would find it laughable if it wasnt so sad. Does the word "bosbefok" mean anything to you. You seem to be suffering from PTSD my friend.
Do you feel that the following describes your current state of mind?
Dont fret, help is at hand.
- are you telling me those combat trained men standing 300 strong, well armed, standing behind a Police station fence some even standing on top of troop carriers thats equipped with gun turrets, facing unarmed men, women and children had reason to become this neanderthal, uber hunters unable to distinguish right from wrong.
a state where any blade of grass or movement could set them onto the path of bloodlust .Killing indiscriminately. Ohyes, I forgot, they were shouting apparently. Clear grounds for murder! case closed.
No my friend, enough of the crazy talk.
Tell me. Should only men with riot and or combat experience be allowed to comment on such basic tenets of decency. Should those men be judged by a different standards than civilians when commiting crimes during non war times.
It is worth noting that a crime cannot exist in the absence of a government. Its when that very government sanctions those crimes that ordinary men and women have to take a stand. Yes, even those that have no intention to ever fire a gun.
Why even bother with asking what myself or any other civilian would have done on that day when you insist that slaughter was not the only option.
I see no point in continuing in this vein. Ive said my bit and I'm not wasting another post on it.
Youve used the excuse that the Sten gun is an unreliable weapon before. I believe you. How it works is really of no concern to me .Ex military men might however find your little lesson fascinating but its wasted on me.
let me make it simple for you. cause and effect.
I might not know anything about cars.
I buy a notoriously unreliable car because its dirt cheap.
I drive it daily and I'm aware that it has notoriously bad brakes.
Yet I drive recklessly.
Something unexpected happens and I plough through a few pedestrians.
Should all be forgiven because THE CAR is known to have bad brakes.
Jugs, I have some difficulty here, because you have just asked me a personal question.
My answer is have you ever been in a situation where killing is going on?
where you are under attack?
My answer is have you ever been in a situation where killing is going on?
where you are under attack?
"in a situation where killing is going on??? "
This was no combat situation ....This was a peacefull demonstration by persons agrieved by the carrying of passbooks -the equivalent of slave papers.
unarmed civilians- show me any bit of text to prove that they were armed.
-All the killing was done by one side.
When you have dust and noise and danger you go to a very dark place that is within your genes from when Man first discovered that the Jawbone of yesterdays lunch made a very effective weapon.
Its a very strange muted place where you are hyper aware of the slightest thing,every blade of grass, every movement and no Jugs, when ,as the Zulu's said,the eyes go red, its a difficult thing to stop as you are thinking in a different plane at that nanosecond.
So, Jugs, the fact that you made that statement tells me you have never been there.
and anyone who has and is reading this is nodding head and agreeing.
Its a very strange muted place where you are hyper aware of the slightest thing,every blade of grass, every movement and no Jugs, when ,as the Zulu's said,the eyes go red, its a difficult thing to stop as you are thinking in a different plane at that nanosecond.
So, Jugs, the fact that you made that statement tells me you have never been there.
and anyone who has and is reading this is nodding head and agreeing.
Do you feel that the following describes your current state of mind?
People with PTSD have persistent frightening thoughts and memories of their ordeal and feel emotionally numb, especially with people they were once close to.
- are you telling me those combat trained men standing 300 strong, well armed, standing behind a Police station fence some even standing on top of troop carriers thats equipped with gun turrets, facing unarmed men, women and children had reason to become this neanderthal, uber hunters unable to distinguish right from wrong.
a state where any blade of grass or movement could set them onto the path of bloodlust .Killing indiscriminately. Ohyes, I forgot, they were shouting apparently. Clear grounds for murder! case closed.
No my friend, enough of the crazy talk.
Tell me. Should only men with riot and or combat experience be allowed to comment on such basic tenets of decency. Should those men be judged by a different standards than civilians when commiting crimes during non war times.
It is worth noting that a crime cannot exist in the absence of a government. Its when that very government sanctions those crimes that ordinary men and women have to take a stand. Yes, even those that have no intention to ever fire a gun.
Why even bother with asking what myself or any other civilian would have done on that day when you insist that slaughter was not the only option.
I see no point in continuing in this vein. Ive said my bit and I'm not wasting another post on it.
Last edited by Juggernaut; Apr 16th 2009 at 1:54 pm.
Apr 16th 2009, 3:48 pm
#23
BE Forum Addict
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,424
Re: How do people react under pressure.
Juggernaut, you are going around in circles
Cause and effect:I might not know anything about cars.
The Company I work for buy a notoriously unreliable car because its dirt cheap.
I drive it daily and I'm aware that it has notoriously bad brakes.
I drive carefully as I am able to do having never had to do Defensive driving training.
Some children play Chicken across the Road I panic and forget everything I've ever been taught.
I hit the brakes and kill the children
Should all be forgiven because THE CAR is known to have bad brakes.
The Company is at fault as it provided me with a Business tool knowing it was defective,but money won in the end.
The Licencing Authority have never considered that I might have to hit the brakes to avoid Children playing Chicken so have not insisted that Cadence braking forms part of my Driving Test.
The Children are at fault for playing Chicken
And I am mostly at fault as I Panicked.
If the Children did not play Chicken, would I have hit the brakes?
I asked you as an intelligent person to put yourself on the other side of that fence for the day, Juggernaut.
Even a 1000 people is a sizable crowd.
The Officers were in fear for their lives.
There was shouting
It would have taken one rock.
one deliberate or accidental discharge of a firearm to unleash a storm of Bullets.
Having been in similar situations,I can understand how it happened, and how easily it can happen again.
Unarmed? is a crowd throwing rocks unarmed?
in later years is a box of matches ,a tyre and some petrol a weapon or not?
300 Firearms and 300 rocks? unfair advantage.
You cannot comprehend it as your entire frame of reference appears based on intellect.
and any situation where there is a mob and shots fired dust and noise and danger intellect dissapears.
When I try and share with you what those inexperienced(in this context) Policemen were going through you keep on harping on that it was all cold blooded,planned a conspiracy.
I have consistently agreed that it should'nt have happened.
And you consistently harp on it
Now on the personal stuff,
Bossies?
PTSD, know it well
I was one of the fortunate ones , and if we knew each other personally you would also laugh at your comment.
I helped treat it, but dont suffer from it.
"Tell me. Should only men with riot and or combat experience be allowed to comment on such basic tenets of decency. Should those men be judged by a different standards than civilians when commiting crimes during non war times."
Your not commenting on it, you're pontificating.
What you fail to comprehend is that in a mob situation tenets of Decency can dissapear in an instant.
Only riot trained Personnel should ever have to face a Civilian riot situation otherwise you get tragedies.
Tiannemen Square is a prime example.
Kent State University another
Now kindly show me where I said those officers and their Commander were innocent?
They should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Ballistic Forensics even then would have identified who killed and wounded and who did not.
The Govt of the day did not and were eventually overthrown.
The present day govt is also not and it too will be overthrown eventually (Hopefully Democratically).
In Modern Day Terms are you suggesting Armed insurrection against the present Government?
"It is worth noting that a crime cannot exist in the absence of a government. Its when that very government sanctions those crimes that ordinary men and women have to take a stand. Yes, even those that have no intention to ever fire a gun."
As to asking what you would have done,its obvious you dont have a clue which is why you keep on obfuscationg.
And you may recall you still have'nt answered the question of how this relates to 4 young Black men cruising Bryanston in a silver Citi Golf with their lights off?or are you suggesting that the Violent crime is revenge.
Cause and effect:I might not know anything about cars.
The Company I work for buy a notoriously unreliable car because its dirt cheap.
I drive it daily and I'm aware that it has notoriously bad brakes.
I drive carefully as I am able to do having never had to do Defensive driving training.
Some children play Chicken across the Road I panic and forget everything I've ever been taught.
I hit the brakes and kill the children
Should all be forgiven because THE CAR is known to have bad brakes.
The Company is at fault as it provided me with a Business tool knowing it was defective,but money won in the end.
The Licencing Authority have never considered that I might have to hit the brakes to avoid Children playing Chicken so have not insisted that Cadence braking forms part of my Driving Test.
The Children are at fault for playing Chicken
And I am mostly at fault as I Panicked.
If the Children did not play Chicken, would I have hit the brakes?
I asked you as an intelligent person to put yourself on the other side of that fence for the day, Juggernaut.
Even a 1000 people is a sizable crowd.
The Officers were in fear for their lives.
There was shouting
It would have taken one rock.
one deliberate or accidental discharge of a firearm to unleash a storm of Bullets.
Having been in similar situations,I can understand how it happened, and how easily it can happen again.
Unarmed? is a crowd throwing rocks unarmed?
in later years is a box of matches ,a tyre and some petrol a weapon or not?
300 Firearms and 300 rocks? unfair advantage.
You cannot comprehend it as your entire frame of reference appears based on intellect.
and any situation where there is a mob and shots fired dust and noise and danger intellect dissapears.
When I try and share with you what those inexperienced(in this context) Policemen were going through you keep on harping on that it was all cold blooded,planned a conspiracy.
I have consistently agreed that it should'nt have happened.
And you consistently harp on it
Now on the personal stuff,
Bossies?
PTSD, know it well
I was one of the fortunate ones , and if we knew each other personally you would also laugh at your comment.
I helped treat it, but dont suffer from it.
"Tell me. Should only men with riot and or combat experience be allowed to comment on such basic tenets of decency. Should those men be judged by a different standards than civilians when commiting crimes during non war times."
Your not commenting on it, you're pontificating.
What you fail to comprehend is that in a mob situation tenets of Decency can dissapear in an instant.
Only riot trained Personnel should ever have to face a Civilian riot situation otherwise you get tragedies.
Tiannemen Square is a prime example.
Kent State University another
Now kindly show me where I said those officers and their Commander were innocent?
They should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Ballistic Forensics even then would have identified who killed and wounded and who did not.
The Govt of the day did not and were eventually overthrown.
The present day govt is also not and it too will be overthrown eventually (Hopefully Democratically).
In Modern Day Terms are you suggesting Armed insurrection against the present Government?
"It is worth noting that a crime cannot exist in the absence of a government. Its when that very government sanctions those crimes that ordinary men and women have to take a stand. Yes, even those that have no intention to ever fire a gun."
As to asking what you would have done,its obvious you dont have a clue which is why you keep on obfuscationg.
And you may recall you still have'nt answered the question of how this relates to 4 young Black men cruising Bryanston in a silver Citi Golf with their lights off?or are you suggesting that the Violent crime is revenge.
Last edited by Daxk; Apr 16th 2009 at 3:53 pm.
