Daxk

It's about abuse of power and priviledge.

Stanley10,How about a hypothetical situation , you discover that the leader of the country has untreated syphilis and refuses to do something about it?

Pablo

You really have managed to retain that slavish mentality the Nats inculcated into South African citizens. The Minister knows best. Do not question.

How on earth do you think these kind of abuses come out? Do you think you just wait for a press release from the President's office?

Manto, and, perhaps, the President, are now exposed as liars who have deliberately deceived the public, and all you can bleat on about (just as they do) is patient confidentiality.

She denies she is an alcoholic. Then let it be established, as it can easily be established. She denies she was binge drinking in hospital. Then let it be established. She induced doctors to put out that she did not have alcohol-induced cirrhosis of the liver, but an auto-immune liver complaint. Then let it be established. Mbeki denies he ordered the hospital to override its proper procedures. Did he or did he not? Let it be established.

Instead the SA government merely refuses any enquiry at all.

This is the health minister. If she has abused the very procedures it is her job to oversee, then it needs to be exposed. If the President has abused his power also, then this too needs to be exposed.

Juggernaut

As I stated previously I have no love for Manto whatsoever. Stanley10 has also indicated that he thinks Manto is incompetent and should go .So theres no use in repeating to us how terrible she is .We know.
By going about their reporting in the way the Sunday Times have they caused their case more harm than good. Stealing a patients record and publish info gleaned from it .There is no doubt that they did .Afterall they returned it after the sharks, I mean lawyers got involved.
I could have 10 kilos of drugs in my house but if the cops break down the door with no warrant and arrest me ,I'll get off free because they would have broken the law .These measures are in place to protect me and you including ministers and the like .
So, as the public we want to know but not at all cost.

Stanley10

So you don't believe in doctor / patient confidentiality.

Pablo

I find it astonishing how ready you and Stanley and others are to shrug off this kind of corruption. No wonder SA is in the state it is.

The point is this. Manto, the health minister, is alleged to have broken the very rules she is supposed to oversee. She is alleged to have caused doctors to put out a false statement about the cause of her liver disease. The President is alleged to have intervened personally with the hospital to order it to ignore its own rules - the very rules he and the health minister are there to uphold. Manto is alleged to be an alcoholic, whose alcoholism is so serious that it has caused cirrhosis of the liver, for which she needed the transplant, and for which, it is alleged, she altered the rules to suit herself.

As I asked Stanley, how do you suppose this kind of thing ought to be exposed? Do you expect a press release from the President?

Yes, Manto's health records were leaked to the Sunday Times. Without evidence of that sort, what do you think the government's response would have been? Flat denial. So the Sunday Times made sure it had evidence before publishing its allegations.

Can you really not see the huge abuse of power questions that this whole sordid story has exposed? Something like this would bring down the government in places like the UK. And what do you do? Shrug your shoulders.

You complain that I do not say anything positive. Well here it is. Do not let this kind of thing pass, or worse will follow. If Manto, and Mbeki, can get away with this, then you may as well forget your precious constitution, because they are the very people who are supposed to uphold it.

Stanley10

Not really, nowhere have I said that the minister knows best, I just have a problem with theft of confidential information.

How about a bit of investigative journalism. It was common knowledge she had a transplant, find someone who had seen her drinking and you have the story.


So the accused needs to prove innocence, somewhat harder than proving guilt.

Pablo

As usual, Stanley, you miss the point.

Pablo

Duh? I saw Manto drinking. Therefore she is an alcoholic. Therefore her liver transplant was not an auto-immune illness as claimed, but cirrhosis.

And the government's response to this "investigative journalism". A flat denial, followed by a court case for libel. And the only defence the Sunday Times would have had: someone claimed they saw Manto drinking.

Wake up, Stanley, for Christ's sake.

Juggernaut

The judiciary is independant .Many cases have gone agains the government before. So lets not pretend that a case involving a minister would not be treated as any other.I say let them bring the evidence if it holds up in a court of law let the guilty face the consequenses .

Corruption gets exposed everyday .I welcome it but lets do it the proper /legal way.

A minister may or may not ( you yourself said allegedly ) have a drinking problem . Do you think that would bring a government down anywhere in the world .Dont be such a drama king for heavens sake.

I'll be glad if she can be proved to be guilty and sacked. Ministers and even the chief whip have been investigated and found guilty of corruption recently and have been relieved of duty so dont tell me it cant be done .

Pablo

Firstly, this is no longer about the health minister's "drinking problem" as you euphemistically term it. Do you really not see that?

Second, without evidence, the Sunday Times would have been sued from here to kingdom come.

Are you now saying you agree that there should be an enquiry? - which Mbeki is refusing. All these questions are ones of fact, for which there will be evidence. An enquiry would establish easily whether:

a) Manto's doctors in their public statement lied about the cause of her liver problem

b) Manto was or was not drinking in hospital prior to her transplant, and afterwards, and demanded alcohol be brought to her by medical staff

c) The President personally intervened or not to demand the rules be ignored

Let an enqury take place, and let us see if there is a cover up taking place.

The question of the health minister's alcoholism is significant but now secondary. Yes, if she is indeed an alcoholic to the degree that she has caused herself cirrhosis of the liver, then this raises questions about her fitness to hold the position she holds. But the key questions now are far wider. They are to do with abuse of power.

Look, Juggernaut, this kind of thing has not just come out of the blue. We're not talking about a government that is not already under suspicion for abuse of power, lying, corruption, etc. There are questions, after all, that STILL have not been answered about the arms deal scandal. Furthermore, we are looking now at a possible new president who is alleged to be corrupt, and who, was alleged to have raped an hiv positive woman, and who, even though he was tasked with the government's aids programme, thought that taking a shower after this "rape" was adequate protection. So we have a government that already has a good deal to answer.

Last I heard, Mbeki's line was: we will not hold enqury unless there is proof. Yet you complain that that very proof (the hospital records) should be suppressed. What other proof would satisfy? Hearsay?

I'm beginning to wonder what you're trying to defend here.

The heads of government need to be clean. Like Caesar's wife, they need to be above suspicion.

Juggernaut

An inquiry would be a great idea as long as everybody abide by its findings afterwards. People have a tendency to dismiss them if they dont result in whatever they might have hoped for.
There is a lot the government needs to answer for I wholeheartedly agree. My point wasnt that they are beyond reproach or to defend them .Shower power Zuma would make any defence laughable. It was that issues such as the arms deal , the travelgate scandal gets exposed in the media as soon as they appear .How can there be suggestions that the media isnt free .
Its a good thing for the government and its citizens .The pressure keeps them mindfull that they're being monitored and need to be sterling examples at all times. Our first time politicians will soon learn that with public office comes public responsibility and for the Sunday Times that we cannot condone getting the story by breaking the law yourselves.

Pablo

It is not a question of "abiding by" findings. It is a question of examining the record and establishing the facts, since it is the facts that are in dispute.

Do you really not know?

What South African law did the Sunday Times break? If being in possession of leaked information is breaking the law in South Africa, then I really can't see much hope for journalistic examination of government corruption and abuse of power.

I note, too, that the whistleblower (a doctor, I believe) at the Eastern Cape hospital, who drew attention to the sorry state of that hospital, has now been suspended.

You might believe in Mbeki's' and Lenin's 'democratic centralism', where no one can speak out and no one can criticise the leader. But I do not.

Your complacent attitude to this fiasco goes a long way to explain why SA is going to fail. It has been like drawing teeth just trying to get you to admit what any person in a well run liberal state would freely and gladly admit. It's like having a conversation with Mugabe's press spokesman.

mingusdynasty

of course she denies she's an alcoholic : It's part of the disease! If she had cancer would you attack her for that too?

Stanley10

The National Health Act, as I have already mentioned

Leaked or stolen? The hospital has reported it as a theft.

Pablo

A more appropriate comparison would be that of allowing without comment or criticism an alcoholic or a heroin addict to fly a passenger plane. But I don't think I need to take lessons in morality from a man of your moral stamp.