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Elections looming large

Elections looming large

Old Jun 14th 2009, 8:06 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

what are you on about?- sounds like someone is having trouble scoring a goal...

...or seen from my perspective, you may well be the one trying to convert the truth into mere assumptions...

are you in the legal profession by any chance?


Originally Posted by Juggernaut

Shifty, reading between the lines was never my strong point. I prefer actually reading the lines. Keeps me from converting mere assumptions to the truth, like you’re prone to do.

.......

Unless the link was somewhere.......between the lines.
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Old Jun 15th 2009, 10:48 am
  #47  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

A member of the legal profession! What will I be called next, perhaps a... lawyer. Where is Mitzy in my hour of need, surely insults of this nature should never be allowed on BE.

Confounding it with references to my team’s impotence in front of goal. With three games still to go in the group stages we might fare better .
It seems like when it comes to our government and Bafana Bafana I'm always living in hope.

Pablo.
Why cant you see that even the Guardian intimated that they had it wrong by calling the printing of the article a “ subbing error “. Opinions are fine but its when media freedom or freedom of speech borders on slander that its not ok.
We all have our opinions but its how we express them that reflects our inherent malice.
So ,in UK terms, how many people do you know that would say no to 100 000 Pounds ?

You know what? Its not even the amount. Its what the settlement represents. It sends out a message to "opinion piece" writers the likes of Mr Simon Jenkins and others that finding someone loathsome is human but once you print your vitriol in the public domain for all to see, unchecked by the norms of decency there can sometimes be a bit of backlash that leaves you scrambling for out of court settlements.

Have you asked yourself why, if there was nothing wrong with the article, if it was so true, would the Guardian withdraw it and back down.
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Old Jun 15th 2009, 10:56 am
  #48  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
Opinions are fine but its when media freedom or freedom of speech borders on slander that its not ok.
I believe Simon Jenkins referred to Zuma as a rapist and corrupt.

Which of these, Juggernaut, do you object to?

Have you asked yourself why, if there was nothing wrong with the article, if it was so true, would the Guardian withdraw it and back down.
I have covered this question my my last post.

Last edited by Pablo; Jun 15th 2009 at 11:32 am.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 1:46 am
  #49  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Pablo
I believe Simon Jenkins referred to Zuma as a rapist and corrupt.
No Pabs, he said Zuma was guilty of rape, and guilty of corruption and bribery, both of which are clearly false, and they admit it. Read their apology.

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/21/corrections-jacob-zuma

Contrary to the reasons you put forward for them offering a settlement. the fact is they offered it because they got it wrong. Sloppy journalism, sloppy editing call it what you like.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 7:19 am
  #50  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Stanley10
No Pabs, he said Zuma was guilty of rape, and guilty of corruption and bribery, both of which are clearly false, and they admit it. Read their apology.

Contrary to the reasons you put forward for them offering a settlement. the fact is they offered it because they got it wrong. Sloppy journalism, sloppy editing call it what you like.
I wouldn't say these allegations are clearly false. Rather "not proven". And I think most South Africans (except the Robben Island Old Boys Club) would agree...

Political Expediancy 1, Transparent Judiciary 0.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:27 am
  #51  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Stanley10
No Pabs, he said Zuma was guilty of rape, and guilty of corruption and bribery
Jenkins referred in The Guardian article to a third party, a South African who commented to Jenkins, upon Zuma's election, "Now we have a rapist and criminal as president."

As you know, Zuma has done his level best to avoid answering the myriad corruption allegations. As for the rape charge, as I have acknowledged, the case was not proven.

Whether he was innocent is another matter. But you and I have wasted time on this subject before and I don't propose going there again.

Suffice to say, as I said before, that even with what is admitted by Zuma, and what is in the public record, he is not a fit person to stand for public office, let alone be president.

Moreover, Stanley, you will know, since you are such a crusader for justice, that it is the tired old refrain of every despot and autocrat around the world that the press must be "responsible". You will also know, unlike poor Juggernaut, who needs to get out more, that there are many instances of newspapers being silenced by rich and powerful men who threaten libel action against them, only for it to be discovered, later, that the newspaper's allegations were in fact true.

In the case of Zuma's corruption, he has engineered matters so that he need not answer the charges. In the case of the rape charge, I have already commented.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:33 am
  #52  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by ededed
And I think most South Africans (except the Robben Island Old Boys Club) would agree...

Political Expediancy 1, Transparent Judiciary 0.
Quite. As the pre-election poll I referred to at the time indicated, an alarming number of Zuma's supporters admitted that they thought he was guilty, and still voted for him.

But rape is a popular recreation in South Africa.

And corruption is a popular career choice.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:37 am
  #53  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by ededed
I wouldn't say these allegations are clearly false. Rather "not proven". And I think most South Africans (except the Robben Island Old Boys Club) would agree...
He has been found guilty of nothing to date, hence both are false.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:42 am
  #54  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Pablo
As for the rape charge, as I have acknowledged, the case was not proven.

Whether he was innocent is another matter. But you and I have wasted time on this subject before and I don't propose going there again.
So why assume he is guilty?

Originally Posted by Pablo
Moreover, Stanley, you will know, since you are such a crusader for justice, that it is the tired old refrain of every despot and autocrat around the world that the press must be "responsible". You will also know, unlike poor Juggernaut, who needs to get out more, that there are many instances of newspapers being silenced by rich and powerful men who threaten libel action against them, only for it to be discovered, later, that the newspaper's allegations were in fact true.
And I am sure that there are many cases where the press have got it wrong, as in this case which they freely admit.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:45 am
  #55  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Stanley10
And I am sure that there are many cases where the press have got it wrong, as in this case which they freely admit.
You are being sophistical. Presumably deliberately.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:46 am
  #56  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Pablo
Quite. As the pre-election poll I referred to at the time indicated, an alarming number of Zuma's supporters admitted that they thought he was guilty, and still voted for him.

But rape is a popular recreation in South Africa.

And corruption is a popular career choice.
Yep, and some pre election polls had Cope coming in as the new opposition, some polls don't get it right. Fact is 66% of the people think he is fit to govern.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:47 am
  #57  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Stanley10
He has been found guilty of nothing to date, hence both are false.
More nonsense. Courts do not prove innocence. Nor are legal judgements infallible.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:49 am
  #58  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Stanley10
Fact is 66% of the people think he is fit to govern.
If 66% of people thought that a chimp was the Blessed Virgin, it would not make it so.
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:52 am
  #59  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Pablo
More nonsense. Courts do not prove innocence. Nor are legal judgements infallible.
So better to use trial by media, the kangaroo court, public opinion, justice a la Pabs?
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Old Jun 17th 2009, 8:53 am
  #60  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Pablo
If 66% of people thought that a chimp was the Blessed Virgin, it would not make it so.
Exactly. If 66% of people thought he was guilty it would not make it so.
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