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Elections looming large

Elections looming large

Old Apr 26th 2009, 12:27 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Dammit! Brigitte Mbandla is right, there are racists everywhere

http://www.thetimes.co.za/Columnists...aspx?id=983803
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Old May 7th 2009, 11:33 am
  #32  
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Shifdelete, to answer your earlier question. I cast my vote and it felt good. Cold but good. I tried in vain to avoid the queues at my local voting station. I ended up going at about 7 at night.
A comment I had read in the Times a few days later had stuck with me. The journo stated that he and his son had stood in line for about two hours before finally getting to cast their ballot .He said that on the day he had about 1/17 millionth say in who our next president will be and although that might sound insignificant he didnt know of anybody else in the country who had more of a say on that day than he did.

So true. Daily I still see the the ink mark on the left thumb of people wherever I go and glance at my own with a fair amount of pride.

Looking forward to the inauguration ceremony on Saturday. Unfortunately not so much our choice of president.... but there you go.
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Old May 7th 2009, 12:04 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
Looking forward to the inauguration ceremony on Saturday. Unfortunately not so much our choice of president.... but there you go.
How sick you must feel, especially when you reflect that so many ANC supporters voted for Zuma even though they think he is guilty of the various charges, including rape. I suppose it's a badge of honour. And how disappointed Zuma must be that he didn't get his day in court (on the corruption charges) that he pretended to desire.

I was reading yesterday about the hundreds of charges that were dropped. I hadn't realised there were quite so many.

Still, he may yet get his chance. I see he has threatened to sue The Guardian (a left-leaning UK daily paper) for referring to him as a rapist. But I rather suspect Zuma will be advised that pursuing a court case in Britain would be against his interests.
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Old May 7th 2009, 12:39 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Good to hear Jugs

Originally Posted by Juggernaut

Daily I still see the the ink mark on the left thumb of people wherever I go and glance at my own with a fair amount of pride.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 2:29 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Hi Pabs ,Like you I too thought that Prez Zuma might drop the whole Mail and Guardian matter.

Still, he may yet get his chance. I see he has threatened to sue The Guardian (a left-leaning UK daily paper) for referring to him as a rapist. But I rather suspect Zuma will be advised that pursuing a court case in Britain would be against his interests.
Imagine my amazement when it seems that they're trying to settle out of court regarding the defamation suit brought by Zuma.
He is apparently considering the offer of £100,000 (about R1,2 million) after they made an original offer of £10,000.He must be pretty confident if he didnt just grab the pennies and run.

They even removed the article from their website. So lets see how he fares as president, its early days yet.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 2:34 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
Hi Pabs ,Like you I too thought that Prez Zuma might drop the whole Mail and Guardian matter.



Imagine my amazement when it seems that they're trying to settle out of court regarding the defamation suit brought by Zuma.
He is apparently considering the offer of £100,000 (about R1,2 million) after they made an original offer of £10,000.He must be pretty confident if he didnt just grab the pennies and run.

They even removed the article from their website. So lets see how he fares as president, its early days yet.
No doubt the Guardian did the calculation that their resources were more limited than the South African state's. Zuma is now president. And you know what that means in Africa. L'etat c'est moi.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 4:14 pm
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L'etat c'est moi.
dont know what you mean ?
My french is a bit rusty...ok ,so its non-existent.

I think the Mail and Guardian just did the old tabloid thing .Employ some gutter journalism to sell papers and manage the fallout afterwards. It wasnt a resource issue either. Even as the ANC President, they would never have let the M&G get away with slander.Lets not forget they had an election kitty of well over 100 million.

I just hope they learnt a lesson from their possible 1.2Mil error in judgement.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 4:30 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
I think the Mail and Guardian just did the old tabloid thing .Employ some gutter journalism to sell papers and manage the fallout afterwards.
You're beginning to sound like Julius Malema.

I just hope they learnt a lesson from their possible 1.2Mil error in judgement.
Ah yes. And that lesson would be: clear it with the president before running the story.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 5:03 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
.Lets not forget they had an election kitty of well over 100 million.

.
wonder where they got the windfall, The ANC as a Party were fundamentally bankrupt after the previous election.
aaah yes, sorry,when were the 2010 WC and Gautrain International element tenders awarded?
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 5:21 pm
  #40  
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You're beginning to sound like Julius Malema
Ya, I should have known you would attack me instead of dealing with the issue. Same ole , same ole expats forum. I sort of miss "youre must be an ANC crony/comprade/sympathiser". Its nice too see that you have a new label ,keep it up.

Ah yes. And that lesson would be: clear it with the president before running the story.
No, but like you, they need to learn the lesson that you need to play the ball and not the man. Please excuse the soccer cliche but with the confederations cup a mere two sleeps away I couldnt resist.

Aah Daxk. right on cue.

wonder where they got the windfall, The ANC as a Party were fundamentally bankrupt after the previous election.
aaah yes, sorry,when were the 2010 WC and Gautrain International element tenders awarded?
Grasping, straw, you get my drift. If you have info , please share. As my dear departed grandad used to say, 'talk is cheap but whiskey cost money'.

Try to get the M&G to print that theory of your's. Lets see how much they cough up this time around.
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Old Jun 12th 2009, 6:11 pm
  #41  
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Juggernaut,

First of all, on a minor point, we're talking about The Guardian, which is a left-leaning UK daily newspaper. It does admittedly have some affiliation with the South African weekly paper called the Mail & Guardian. But the article in question appeared in The Guardian, at least initially.

The South African Mail & Guardian has a fine track record of speaking out against abuses of government power, and was notable in speaking out many times against the old apartheid government -- which frequently tried to silence it with legal threats. It has a reputation of speaking unwelcome truth to power.

Now to the rest of your response.

What is the issue that I am not dealing with? Whether Zuma is a rapist or not?

What is known in the public domain is that the South African courts determined that the rape case against Zuma was not proven. That does not of course mean that he was innocent, merely that guilt was not proven in court beyond reasonable doubt.

What is also in the public domain is that he had unprotected sex with a young hiv+ female friend, who has subsequently had a nervous breakdown, fled South Africa in fear for her life, and is now living in exile in Holland, having been granted asylum there.

He had this unprotected sex with her in full knowledge of her hiv+ status. He was married polygamously at the time. He was also partly responsible for the South African government's anti-hiv policy at the time.

Leaving aside the array of unanswered corruption charges against Zuma, this rape case alone would have prevented him from standing, let alone from being elected, in many countries. But many of those who voted for Zuma seemed untroubled by all this.

Judging from previous posts of yours, I would have thought you'd be more concerned that Zuma has managed to avoid answering the corruption charges against him. But it seems you're keener to shout down the free media in the UK instead.

There are many instances here in the UK where a newspaper prints allegations which it is later forced to retract, after having been threatened with legal action. There are many cases, too, where, the newspaper having retracted, those allegations have subsequently been demonstrated to have been true.

But rape, alas, is notoriously hard to prove, since it tends to happen in private. And so I suspect the truth will never been established with any certainty.

So it remains a matter of opinion and judgement.

And my judgement on this, as I have said before many times, is that with the facts as admitted by Zuma, he was unfit for public office, let alone president.

Last edited by Pablo; Jun 12th 2009 at 6:35 pm.
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Old Jun 13th 2009, 6:59 am
  #42  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Ja, same ole, same ole to you too jugs- thats a piss-poor response- considering your posts are exactly that: 'same ole, same ole' whenever you are challenged, you whinge....why? how are you being attacked?

Something you need to learn about the truth- mostly you need to read between the lines- that goes for your rather smug summary of why you suppose Zuma is vindicated.

Originally Posted by Juggernaut
Ya, I should have known you would attack me instead of dealing with the issue. Same ole , same ole expats forum. I sort of miss "youre must be an ANC crony/comprade/sympathiser". Its nice too see that you have a new label ,keep it up.


No, but like you, they need to learn the lesson that you need to play the ball and not the man. Please excuse the soccer cliche but with the confederations cup a mere two sleeps away I couldnt resist.

Aah Daxk. right on cue.


Grasping, straw, you get my drift. If you have info , please share. As my dear departed grandad used to say, 'talk is cheap but whiskey cost money'.

Try to get the M&G to print that theory of your's. Lets see how much they cough up this time around.
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Old Jun 13th 2009, 10:44 am
  #43  
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Aaah Cde Juggernaut, I thought you were calling me?
Was this the M&g Article you were referring to?
http://elections.mg.co.za/story/2009...dodgy-funders/
I'm also referring to the large amounts of unpaid electricity and rates Bills for the ANC offices citing that they dont have the money.
Shell House 's telephone gets cut off frequently.

Grasping at straws? perhaps, but I've also enjoyed Andrew Feinsteins Book immensely.
Are'nt Political parties supposed to declare Funding sources?
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Old Jun 14th 2009, 9:46 am
  #44  
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Pablo , despite me mistakenly referring to the Guardian as the Mail and Guardian you still don’t refute the fact that the Guardian is trying to settle with Zuma out of court and its implications. As we all know settling out of court is tantamount to admitting guilt. Especially if your first feeble offer was rejected and you then increase your offer ten fold. Smacks of desperation, whatever their reasons.
That’s my issue and I only raised it since you thought the Guardian article so impressive Zuma would fold and let it be.

Everything you said regarding JZ is true. I agree with you that he is therefore unfit to be president.

I'll tell you what else is true.
1)Jacob Zuma was found not guilty by a court of law.
1)Jacob Zuma is the president of South Africa. Whether we like it or not. Your judgment and outrage wont change that. Deal with it.

Shifty, reading between the lines was never my strong point. I prefer actually reading the lines. Keeps me from converting mere assumptions to the truth, like you’re prone to do.

Daxk, don’t you wish that there was legislation regulating party funding. I don’t think there is. We should note that the other large parties like the D.A also failed to indicate the origins of their election funding.
In the U.K Lord Ashcroft did his thing for the Conservatives in the 'cash for honours’ scandal ,didn’t he. There seems to be calls for tighter donor capping controls. But then big business just disguise their donations as loans and there’s no cap on those, is there?
But I digress .The article you posted, while interesting failed to make the link you alluded to regarding 2010 WC, Gautrain tenders and party funding.

Unless the link was somewhere.......between the lines.

Last edited by Juggernaut; Jun 14th 2009 at 9:52 am.
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Old Jun 14th 2009, 10:13 am
  #45  
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Default Re: Elections looming large

Juggernaut,

As I said in my last post to you, there are many cases where newspapers in the UK make allegations, and are then forced to retract them because they are threatened with legal action, and then it is subsequently demonstrated that the allegations the newspaper made were in fact true.

In the case of Zuma the rapist, Zuma would have had to sue for damages in an English court. He would have had to claim that he had been libelled.

Bear in mind that The Guardian article was an opinion piece by Simon Jenkins. I can only speculate why The Guardian has deemed that it is easy to offer the paltry (in UK terms) 100,000 pounds out-of-court settlement.

I will speculate if you like, however. I imagine they deemed that 100,000 would be far cheaper than fighting a libel case. They may also have reflected that they would need to bring the alleged rape victim as witness, and they may have determined that she has already been though enough, and would have little to gain from going through the whole process again.

Is all that not obvious to you?

Your talk about "admitting guilt" is just nonsense. What guilt? No one except Zuma and the victim know the truth of the matter, as I said in my last post.

Zuma would have to demonstrate that he had been libelled. My original view was that he would find that difficult, particularly in an English court, away from the intimidation that took place in South Africa. ("Kill the bitch" and all the other stuff).

I still think he will be advised not to push it to the wire. Don't you?



Everything you said regarding JZ is true. I agree with you that he is therefore unfit to be president.
Good. Noted.

I'll tell you what else is true.
1)Jacob Zuma was found not guilty by a court of law.
This is not disputed. The burden of proof would be different in a civil case, however.

1)Jacob Zuma is the president of South Africa. Whether we like it or not. Your judgment and outrage wont change that. Deal with it.
Deal with it by doing what? By changing my view that he is unfit for public office?
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