Diego Garcia

Old May 14th 2009, 12:32 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

I already have.

Originally Posted by JR230898
Could you point out anyone who wouldn't?
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Old May 14th 2009, 12:33 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Really!!

Originally Posted by JR230898
Daxk,
Sorry to hear that. Glad to hear that they have been able to rebuild their lives.
JR
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Old May 14th 2009, 12:56 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Hey JR, I dont want to keep doing quote on quote so am going to paste and answer the relevant bits.

"their lives would've been of their own determination. How much does self-determination mean to you? Is it an important part of your life? Do you think other people have a lesser right to it?"

But they have determined their lives.
They were a cohesive group, speaking a common language to each other,
On an Island that had, even in 1970 , a very highly developed Education System.


Let us compare this to other "Dispossessed" (sp) or Refugee groups.

1902 a bunch of Afrikaners whose land had been destryed landed on inhospitable shores of Patagonia, no assistance, not much money, could'nt speak spanish or portuguese.
made a success.
The Cuban Community in Miami Florida , some prospered and some failed.
The West Indian Arrivals in the UK in the 50's and 60's?? Some prospered and some failed
The Algerian and North Africans in France? Ditto

Your own people in Australia? are all Aboriginals welfare cases?

The answer to all of this is that not all the Chagossians are unhappy and have failed to adapt.
And in common with the other examples, an element did not want to work or study and have their hands out.

If there was another Island why were'nt they moved there?
why did'nt they take their share of the 4 mill and move closer to "Home"?
I agree that they have been treated with disrespect, but has no-one offered the Chago's another island?
If they did go back there and it was returned to state, would they live there waiting for the Coconuts to fall from the trees, no electricity,no running water, no internet, no shops, pubs etc...
or would they then expect some development money too
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:03 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Pablo
Except, if I have understood you correctly, what is justiciable varies, and so cannot be a standard.

Which is one of the reasons why the modern language of "rights", for all its righteous indignation, descends into confusion.
Ostensibly, nations sign up to treaties for the benefits they perceive will ensue...they need to be held to them....immutable.
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:05 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by JR230898
Daxk,
Sorry to hear that. Glad to hear that they have been able to rebuild their lives.
JR
Yes, JR they did.
And in terms of Justiciible rights, I have a quiet chuckle when I read about he Human rights groups and all these"poor" people.

Two groups spring to mind who lived in abject poverty, denied rights of franchise,education and treated like dirt.
One group more than the other was sold into slavery, its women bred with African slaves to create mulatto slaves that would stand up to the heat better, hung for minor infringements, dispossed of their land, starved to death.

Do you think the Irish should ask for compensation too?
The Afrikaners did'nt.
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:17 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by shiftdelete
No mate you didn't just pluck that out the air-
You are so correct!!! I didn't just pluck that out of the air....it was on the letter from Lloyds TSB Offshore Limited sitting here in front of me...they happen to be located...on the 'Isle of Man'. How silly of me to think I could fool you with a 'pluck out of the air'.

Originally Posted by shiftdelete
- you have a 'thing' about "pink nosed" people.

Every possible comparison you come up with is related to the bad pink nosed people.

I'm starting to wonder if in fact you're not the real racist.
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:24 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by JR230898
Ostensibly, nations sign up to treaties for the benefits they perceive will ensue...they need to be held to them....immutable.
Yes, well now we are shifting from individuals to something far more abstract. If, say, Australia, signs up to a treaty that you regard as unjust, does whatever was unjust suddenly change overnight into something just? Or does it remain unjust, treaty or no treaty? And if that nation, Australia say, changes its mind about the treaty, should it continue to adhere to what it now regards as unjust?

Last edited by Pablo; May 14th 2009 at 1:26 pm.
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:33 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Daxk
Yes, JR they did.
And in terms of Justiciible rights, I have a quiet chuckle when I read about he Human rights groups and all these"poor" people.

Two groups spring to mind who lived in abject poverty, denied rights of franchise,education and treated like dirt.
One group more than the other was sold into slavery, its women bred with African slaves to create mulatto slaves that would stand up to the heat better, hung for minor infringements, dispossed of their land, starved to death.

Do you think the Irish should ask for compensation too?
The Afrikaners did'nt.
Or, recognition of the injustice and, an apology. The apology extended to the aboriginal people by the Australian Prime Minister in 2008 went, in my view, a long way to restoring the human dignity of all of the people here. Has it made a difference to their current societal problems? Probably not, but it is a start.

The Afrikaaners? Talking about compensation from...the UK?
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:38 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Pablo
Yes, well now we are shifting from individuals to something far more abstract. If, say, Australia, signs up to a treaty that you regard as unjust, does whatever was unjust suddenly change overnight into something just? Or does it remain unjust, treaty or no treaty? And if that nation, Australia say, changes its mind about the treaty, should it continue to adhere to what it now regards as unjust?
A treaty is an undertaking...is the intent of it any different to a contract? If there is a need to change a treaty, there are protocols. What do you do if you need to change a contract....ignore the contract change protocols?
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:42 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by JR230898
A treaty is an undertaking...is the intent of it any different to a contract? If there is a need to change a treaty, there are protocols. What do you do if you need to change a contract....ignore the contract change protocols?
Well calling a treaty a contract is neither here nor there. So when you said that a treaty must be immutable, you didn't really mean immutable, did you? You meant immutable until you decide you want to change it.

But that doesn't address the central question, as I think you realise.
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:50 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Pablo
Well calling a treaty a contract is neither here nor there. So when you said that a treaty must be immutable, you didn't really mean immutable, did you? You meant immutable until you decide you want to change it.

But that doesn't address the central question, as I think you realise.
It remains immutable until the parties agree to a change. Consensus.

and...the central question was?
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Old May 14th 2009, 1:53 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by JR230898
It remains immutable until the parties agree to a change. Consensus.

and...the central question was?
I put to you again:

If, say, Australia, signs up to a treaty that you regard as unjust, does whatever was unjust suddenly change overnight into something just? Or does it remain unjust, treaty or no treaty?

Now if you don't want to answer, that's fine. And if you don't understand, you can say so. But don't pretend you're answering when you're not answering. I'm not trying to catch you out (notwithstanding your earlier jibes). So if you'd rather mull it over, that's fine.
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Old May 14th 2009, 2:02 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Pablo
I put to you again:

If, say, Australia, signs up to a treaty that you regard as unjust, does whatever was unjust suddenly change overnight into something just? Or does it remain unjust, treaty or no treaty?

Now if you don't want to answer, that's fine. And if you don't understand, you can say so. But don't pretend you're answering when you're not answering. I'm not trying to catch you out (notwithstanding your earlier jibes). So if you'd rather mull it over, that's fine.
OK, understood now. No. I have recourse to protest politically...and legally...and ultimately, I could choose to leave Australia if I were to be so moved.
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Old May 14th 2009, 2:05 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by JR230898
OK, understood now. No. I have recourse to protest politically...and legally...and ultimately, I could choose to leave Australia if I were to be so moved.
Right. So you see the difficulty here. A treaty may be just or unjust. A law may be just, or unjust. So we cannot look to a treaty for guidance. Indeed, it is the other way round, wouldn't you say? We can only assess the justness of the treaty by a standard separate from that treaty.
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Old May 14th 2009, 2:11 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: Diego Garcia

Originally Posted by Pablo
Right. So you see the difficulty here. A treaty may be just or unjust. A law may be just, or unjust. So we cannot look to a treaty for guidance. Indeed, it is the other way round, wouldn't you say? We can only assess the justness of the treaty by a standard separate from that treaty.
and...a universal standard ....would be for you?
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