Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Hello to you all. All I can say is "thank god I came across this Brit Expat site"

I was involved in a car crash yesterday, and upon submitting my insurance claim, I'm told that there "might" be legal issues as I have a UK driving licence, not a South African one.

I moved here from the UK in 2001 and now have full SA Residency.

In all this time, I have used my UK licence to buy cars and hence, to insure the car.

However, I was involved in a car crash yesterday, and duly contacted my Insurance Broker, which has been insuring my house and vehicle since 2005.

Now I'm told that my UK licence is not valid anymore since I have been here for 6 years or whatever.

This is what I have been told by the Insurance Co.

http://www.acts.co.za/rt_nrta/23_whe...ng_licence.htm

My UK licence is clean and valid from 1989 to 2010. So what I really need to know is if my UK licence is valid and legal in SA or whether I should have a SA Licence.??

Having searched the web and come across this thread on this site which is dated 23rd Sept 2006.

Can anyone tell me in legal (laymans) terms what the law dictates - or a link to relevant sites.

The repair quote for my car is standing at around R36,000.

Also, if it is the case of requiring a SA Licence, is not my insurance broker's responsibilty to determine if my UK licence is valid / legal ?? When purchasing the car, and then insuring the car, my driving licence would be required for both purposes??

And, referring back to the post above, which mentioned that applying for SA licence would require me to relinquish my UK licence (which I am sure you would agree, would be utterly stupid - which Brit would "exchange" their UK Licence for that of a SA Licence? No offence intended.

So, if anyone has the answers or suggested sites, I would be more than grateful. I've sought advice from a top Immigration lawyer, the police and more, but it seems that this poses a challenging argument.

Not once, in all the time I have lived here, has the subject of an SA Licence been advised.

How do I tell if my UK Licence is International? I have travelled in many countries using this licence. In the top left corner is the logo: a blue square with UK in the middle with gold stars encircling it. Is this International?

Please help -this is the only site that I have come across that offers expats a decent forum / help, (It's only taken 6 years...,!)

Huge Thanks (in advance..!!) to any and all of you trhat might stumble across and/or have the knowledge to assist me,. I have exhausted all other resources that I can think of.

Moon :thumbsup:

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Try www.arrivealive.co.za they may be able to help.
Firstly i dont believe there is there is International licence. These are permits and are short term only.
Any country you travel to you are expected to get their licence after a time.

I dont believe you need to surrender the British licence (How can one country lay claim to a document of another country?). Many I know that have RSA licence still have UK licences

Ignorance of the law is not considered a defence, but I agree it is wrong of the insurer not to inform you of this, but they just want your money. I think if you read your policy document you will find it in there, and you will have signed it stating you have or are aware that you need a valid RSA drivers licence.
I think you better prepare for a battle with your insurer, and perhaps even some fines.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

The rule always was that, upon taking Permanent Residence in SA, you must either exchange your UK driving licence for a SA one, or you must obtain a SA driving licence the way South Africans do - that is, by taking a new driving test.

So I suspect your insurance company is correct.

It is irrelevant that your UK licence is clean and valid in the UK.

I note what you say about relinquishing your UK licence. But of course you're not really relinquishing it, are you? It remains valid on the UK DVLA computer. What people usually do is simply say the old licence was "destroyed" and ask the DVLA for a new one. The only priviso here is that the DVLA will only send out replacements to a UK address, so you need to arrange that. Still, this is a side issue in your present situation.

Whether your UK licence is valid outside the UK, and if so, for how long, is not a question that is determined by the UK authorities. It is a question determined by the authorities in the host country - in this case South Africa.

The stars on your licence merely indicate the creeping influence of the European Union, just as the original black UK passport has been replaced by a standard EU colour. It too is irrelevant to your present case, alas.

Pablo

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

One of the first things we did on moving to our new country was to check carefully the driving laws and requirements as so much rides on being properly documented.

In the EU you can often move to a new country and keep your old licence until it expires and drive legally, but in general from what I have seen of moving to a non EU country, you have to exchange a licence when becoming resident.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Thank you everyone for all your replies, which have been informative and helpful, albeit not the answers I was hoping for! (0ne of wants to in the right!!).

Having read all your replies, I can only deduce that I might be in for a battle with the insurers. If so, I'll be stuck with a hefty bill to repair the car. I'll do my best to "read the fine print".

Does anyone have any advice on how on to proceed fighting the insurers if they do refuse to pay up because of my UK licence?

Again, many thanks everyone.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Firstly I would get a licence asap. Then you or a lawer might be able to argue that, you were capable, but just ignorant of the law
I would read through your policy document. You might find some legal holes, but I doubt it. perhaps find a lawyer who deals with this, but you could end up wasting R500 or R1000 to be told you are fighting a losing battle.
Good luck.
Here in Australia you must go for a test if you have a RSA licence but EU licences, you just show yours, and they give you a Au version.

Again I really dont think you ever surrender your UK licence. I worked with several people from the UK and Holland and they never surrendered their licence, but only presented it. As a minimum you would have to have an eye test, but becuase you have been there so long you could end up needing to do a learners licence. I would try www.Qnomore.co.za or similar, They are expert at minimising processes.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

were they aware that you were on a UK licence? ie did you provide them with a copy of the licence?
Was there any further correspondence?

Whatever, if it's in the fine print, end of the day , they have more money to pay legal fees than you do and your legal fees, unless on a No Win No fee Contingency basis could easily cost you more than 36K ZAR.
there's a very good crash and bash attorney at deneys reitz , pm me and I'll tell you who to ask for , no financial interests etc blah de blah blah

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Hey DaxK
Thanks for your message. I tried to PM you but got the message below. Can I give you my email address or visa versa? Seems like I will be in need of your advice. The repair quote to fix my my car is R36,000. And to think that I had left home not 2 mins before the crash and in less than 2 mins, my life changed by close to R40,000. So yes, yours any any other help/advice/tips/tricks or whatever would be more than welcome.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Try now 2Moon, seeing you have 3 posts :)

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I agree with Daxk. You are throwing good money after bad if you try to pursue this legally. Ignorance of the law is no defence. Just as in the UK, your insurance policy will state that you must be in possession of a licence. It is not up to the insurance company or broker to check up on this.

I fear you're just going to have to bite the bullet on this. You're lucky you didn't kill someone in your car crash, or you could be facing a bill of millions.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I agree with them :D
Look on the bright side ..... if you had injured or killed another road user, you might have lost everything you have in legal battles / compensation ;)

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Naaah, it's South Africa remember, he who bribes most, wins!!:p

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Sorry ..... forgot where I was for a moment :D

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I have RSA permanent residency, and have been driving on my UK Licence. I was told by the police that a UK licence is no problem, as long as you obtain a letter from the British High Commission stating that your licence is valid, which I duly did. There is a small cost to this, but I've never had any problems since. Hope this helps.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I don't mean to contradict you, but what matters when it comes to a dispute is what the law says, not what the police happen to tell you.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

It depends on what the fine print says.
a "Valid driving licence" or a "valid SA driving licence"
Is the person a SA Citizen or not?
It's a moot point but it can be argued that as the UK Drivers licence is recognised and the person using it is there for a limited time , it qualifies.
It needs an honest local legal eagle to look at it and advise ,my personal gut feeling is that the court case will cost more for a 50/50 chance.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Yes, Daxk, I agree. If, for example, you are a SA citizen or holder of a Permanent Residence permit who has left SA and now living in, say, the UK, then if you go to SA for a visit, and do not have a SA driving licence, you can hire a car (for example) on your UK licence or on an International Driving Permit and drive legally in SA for the duration of your stay.

If you resume residence in SA, you cannot drive permanently on a foreign licence. There will be a time limit of some sort stated in the legislation.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I agree Pablo. I was under the impression you were given about 6 - 8 weeks to apply for your SA license. It used to be 3 months. Anyone that believes what the police dept in SA say are nuts. Try challenging that in court?!?! They would deny it in a heartbeat. :eek:

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Sorry redlippie, but didn't get what you meant by your message..??

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

You can pm people AFTER you have made 3 posts. Its to stop spammers coming on here and pming hundreds of people

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Hi Everyone.

Having spent most of today trying to get the right info, I thought that i should share the outcome.

It is required to have a SA driving licence which can be used to drive in the UK temporarily.

I rang the DVLA in the UK, and they said that once you are no longer living in the UK, they will not issue you with a UK licence - although you can get a temp one when you arrive in the UK. Which to me sounds like a major pain if you are going over for a two week holiday - so how long would it take to get the temp one.??

I also spoke to the British High Commision in Cape Town, and they confirmed having to have a SA licence.

So my remaining question now is whether or not an insurance company / broker must have proof of your driving licence before they can insure you.

My broker says that they don't because they take it on "good faith and assume that you have the correct documentation" So my argument is that my Insurance company should take it on "good faith" that my claim is legit and I will duly get a SA driving licence,m thereby they should give me a hire car in so called "good faith", which under my fully comprehensive insurance, I am entitled to.

My ins.co. now stipulate that i must obtain a letter of confirmation that my Uk licence is valid (because they say that this country is full of fraud ones....yeah, go figure)

Then, I must go to a traffic department, with the "said letter", apply for a SA licence, which will of course take any number of weeks. I will be given a piece of paper with confrimation that I have applied, and then i must submit all this stuff to my insurance co. Then, the ins. co. MAY consider authorising the repairs, and unlikely to grant me car hire.

They say that car hire requires a SA licence which is bollocks because I have hired on my UK licence. I even bought my car, opened a bank account etc using my UK licence.

Does anyone have info on the legalities of what documents and identification requirments like driving licence an Insurance Company must legally obtain to issue the insurance???

Yes I know I'm ranting, but I have reached my limit with all of this. The brokeres and insurance co. all seem to be uncertain of the absolute legalities and it keeps going from dept to dept.

I need a SA Licence fast, by any means.. yeah, I know, not emtirely legal, but what the hell. Even the person I spoke to at the British Commision said that she knows of plenty of people who have aquired (bought) SA Licences.


How is it that insurance companies are allowed to **** us around so much in attempts to not pay out. There should be some law or something to protect us. I have been paying my monthly insurance for all this time, so they can take my money, and then refuse to pay out.

Ok, ranting over!
Thanks everyone.

:curse:

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Cool, thanks for clarifying that for me.
:thumbup:

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

2moon2, Do NOT under any circumstances buy a licence.
If you get caught you will be thrown in jail until you can get to a court which could take days..
A very good friend was falsely arrested on a trumped up charge by someone who owed HIM money.
He spent the weekend in jail.
He got raped
That took care of his life.
You do not want to be in a SA jail/police cells

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Horrific Daxk. The shyte never seems to stop over there. :blink: That friend of mine whose daughter was raped is back in hospital again. Things going seriously pearshaped for her. :( 2moon2, they would not be the first insurance company to do whatever it takes to avoid paying out on a policy. Depending on the laws as they stand now, you may well be denied if you were not in possession of a South African driver's license at the time of the accident.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

There is absolutely NO consumer protection of ANY kind in South Africa, and people should realize that when they move from a first world country where they're used to being able to pick up the phone and get some answers.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Thanks Daxk, Redlippie & Tegwyn for your feedback which I have taken and understood. having lived here for 7 years, I know of the horrors, but you always think that it will never happen to you. i guess I am just desperate at the moment and highly stressed with too much going on. As if selling my house and buying another with all the paperwork and finances etc to organise, this car fiasco could not have come at a worse time.

But i hear you, and will stay away from buying a licence.

Thanks all

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I hope you get some relief 2moon2. It can be daunting but you can only do what you can do. Who is the responsible party for the accident? Perhaps some solid info from a lawyer may be required if you get pressured to pay. At least you will know your legal standing.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I must confess that I do not know the rules for SA regarding UK. Licences.However, having driven there on a UK Licence and all over Europe, Scandinavia and the states in the course of work I understood that the International rule was that you could drive on your own country's licence for 6 months. Before that period is up you must have a licence of the country that you are living in.I live in Turkey now and have a Turkish Licence ( what a joke ) but unfortunately the Insurance Co's. here are refusing to pay out on People that are driving on Brit Licence's after 6 months of living here.Aquaintance has just lost his car because he could not afford to repair it as the insurance co. would not pay out for the above reason.

Ian

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Its far more varied than that I think Ian. In Spain for instance you can keep your UK licence until it expires quite legally, so I could have a UK licence here unless I voluntarily change it, for maybe 16 years

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Basically what you are saying is that you were there on a temporary basis only. I'm sure the rules are different in those instances. It is those living there with permanent residence visas that would require a license.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Hi Mitzyboy. Spain is in the EU and Turkey is not.The 6 month rule applies here and at that point you must have a Turkish driving licence which I have got.If you do not have one then the Insurer will use that to wriggle out of paying out.

Tegwyn, Yes when I was working I used my UK Licence to drive but now I'm retired and living in Turkey then I have to have a TK. Licence. If not and I have an accident then they don't pay.

Sorry if the original post was not clear.

Ian

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Yes I know that, but I mentioned it because you said that you had driven all over europe and your understanding was that you could drive on your UK licence for 6 months, which is not always the case

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Hi Mitzyboy. You are correct on that one.Some countries will only except an International Licence.

Ian

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

I moved to SA 4 months ago and looked into the driving licence situation when I got here to see where I stood legally.
If you do a search on the SA High Commission website it says you can drive on a UK drivers licence for 12 months only after entry. However you can only apply for a SA driving licence if you have permanent residence.
I am a PR but I don't have the green ID book - I've appllied but apparently it takes 6 -8 months to process. Once it arrives I need to go to the British High Commission in Pretoria to get a letter to say my UK licence is valid - I can then go to the licensing bureau and get a SA licence, they won't issue one without a green ID book.

Incidentally you don't have to give up your UK drivers licence, my husband just had to show it to the licencing centre (he already had an ID book). Although to be honest its no great shakes to give up your UK licence, it's not like a passport if you ever return permanently to the UK just call the DVLA and they will issue you with a new one. Infact they'll do it before you move back, but you need a UK address.

Which insurance company are you with? I'm with Outsurance and told them I had a UK licence and they didn't think it was valid and suggested I get an International one but I checked and assumming the high commission website is correct I'm OK for 12 months. I have no idea what an International licence is, I doubt you can get one in this country - I know they issue them in the UK but thought that was just if you needed your licence translated so you could hire cars in Europe etc.

Did you actually tell your insurance company you had a UK licence? They probably wouldn't ask and you don't have to supply copies to get insurance.

I realise this doesn't help you much, but the rules seem fairly clear to me.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

You can get an international licence from a driving organization like the AA or RAC. You have to show your own local licence in order to get one.

I think the only catch is that you need to get it in the country where your local licence was issued. So, for example, if your local licence is a UK one, you need to get the international licence in the UK.

Re: Car Crash Yesterday 8th sept - Need Urgent Advice
 

Try African style - R200 with your story, maybe for R400 get your licence backdated, R600 a PhD, R1000 and you can have a Mrs Mbeki ID, that way you can do what you want regardless.

I am impressed with all your energy and determination to take on what you believe is right.

Getting creative, if you can hire a car in SA with your UK licence I would go & do that , make sure that your UK licence is written into the docs that you sign to hire the car. Make an appointment to see on of the top brass at the insurance Co, and explain that you believe that all this confusion is something that the press in SA will enjoy and that the insurance ombudsman are perhaps out to lunch too frequently. Before you say that, I would make an anonymous call to the FSB (In Pretoria) and present your story to them. They are the insurance watchdogs (supposedly).

I believe that the insurance companies will have every gap plugged with small print or their legal departments to engage your lawyer in some costly exercise that you stand to lose even more money.

In essence, the fact that the insurance Co took your money means they should provide a service for the monies they have received and if you are not covered they should be made to at least return all the premiums they took from you.

It is probably a legal battle but I do know that around 2001 the disclosure act went through some pretty challenging changes and insurance companies had to make sure that their client’s FULLY understood the parameters of the contract that they were paying the premiums for.

Ultimately, you should have read the small print but it is worth a try for R36 k.

Good luck