shiftdelete

Good on you.

anyways ekse, you should be ok, Stanley10 can vouch for that- all the way from Australia

Pablo

I am not saying this to contradict you, Martin, but I do wonder what you mean when you say your own personal experience is different etc.

Clearly none of the dreadful crimes mentioned have actually happened to you. That almost goes without saying. They don't happen to one often. And, without wanting to sound facetious, something like murder only happens to you once.

But the precautions, the constant looking over your shoulder, and the slow drip, drip, drip, of appalling news that is all too close for comfort is an aspect of *every* day of life there. Holidaymakers don't tend to notice this, not because they are not at risk, but because they just don't think of it. The dread of getting a flat tyre or car breakdown on a quiet road, where you are a sitting duck, the beach rape on a place you often like to go, the brutal murder of your local cafe owner, or of a friend. All these things take their toll.

Similarly, holidaymakers are not really exposed to the collapse of municipal services, the breakdown in healthcare, and such things. They will, however, be affected by the constant almost daily power-cuts, and they will have to consider whether the tapwater is polluted, and such things.

And then there is the dreadful stupidity of the government, fat, complacent and corrupt, making mistake after mistake, and then refusing to acknowledge the failings.

As a visitor you can ignore them. But as a resident, investing your future life there, you cannot.

You just stop looking at the catalogue of murders in the daily paper. It's just too awful.

My own advice, for what it's worth is this. Face the risks, but don't deny them, and if you are still intent on going, then make the best of it, and maintain as much of an ability to remove yourself if your initial impressions prove to be too superficial. In other words, keep an exit strategy.

SA is a beautiful place. If that were all there was to it, I don't think anyone who has advised you here would have left.

So good luck. Ask if you want any advice.

threelegs

i appreciate your pragmatism, thank you
we are keeping property here in the IOM and intend giving it 4 yrs before severing ties up here, i must admit the somber almost morbid tomes received on here would shake anyones faith in anything, i made my decision based upon my positive experiences down there over a two year period, the thought of being taught the ultimate lesson though is unthinkable and very very sobering for us

martin

Pablo

Sure, Martin, and good luck.

I just glanced at today's SA newsfeed after writing my last post to you. This from Durban... alas.

Suddenly all this stuff ceases to be "somewhere else" and is "home." It's hard to explain. You have to live it, really, to grasp what I mean.

But to end on a positive note, I have friends who went back,and although some are leaving again, one family I know are happy enough and intend to stay. Not in Durban, as it happens. Up in Underberg.

21-YEAR-OLD GANG-RAPED
Hillcrest residents in Durban are reeling in shock after a woman was gang-raped while her father was held at gunpoint at a dam in the area.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newsl...5a1a20080304at

Tegwyn

How long ago was that Martin? The escalation of crime has only really been happening over the past few years.

pgtips

Martin, I am not from South Africa, but reading the overwhelming negative response here, I would seriously think about making such a move. South Africa is now labelled the 'murder capital of the world',. Is this really where you want to move your wife and family too ?

Why not watch the situation from the side lines over the next couple of years before making what could turn out to be one of the biggest mistakes of your life. Put your family first, a car and big house can be replaced, your loved ones can't.

believe me, I am an optomist, but reading news outside of this forum about the goings on in S.A is rather disturbing.

Daxk

Well Martin,if you Google Julian Lap you will find the story of how this last Sunday turned out for my Nephews School Friend at St Johns.
Marylin died this morning.
I did'nt know them, my nephew did.

Pablo

Dear God, Daxk, I am sorry. I know this suburb well.

talbot

Unlike RL, I haven't been on this for years so am unfamiliar with your "private jokes".

Tegwyn

Very very sad Daxk.

Campbells

This is the risk that I refer to

There is no sunshine, no house with a swimming pool, no BMW – NOTHING that makes living in SA worth considering, particularly if you have children.

NO ONE recovers EVER from something like this and it does not just affect the victim or the father, it affects the whole family ( and not just those living in SA) and anyone that knows the person.

When you are LIVING in South Africa and you hear that criminals are roaming EVERYWHERE and do this sort of thing at ANY PLACE at anytime you start to live you life constantly looking over your shoulder

Doing the 360

Read the article, the father is held at gunpoint whilst the daughter is gang raped. The vehicle that was stolen was later found nearby, so it wasn’t a theft. It is a case the criminals there see something they want and take it, and that includes your daughter if that is what they want. After an incident like this many folk will say they are luck to be alive and that they weren’t slaughtered

The other aspect is that needs to be considered is that such tactics are African negotiations, to expand.

Having run my own company based in Johannesburg for years prior to leaving you can not believe how many times you encounter the “threat” situation. Many times it is so very subtle. I remember having huge drama with a swimming pool company and was basically outright threatened.

We had some friends in te police over there and they told us ( in 1996) that you could contract a hit for ZAR 150 which is about ten GB pounds. All that was required was a photograph and an address.

Our friends in Northcliff, contracted a small company to install some built in cupboards and gave a 25% deposit. They couldn’t get the company to come and do the work. When eventually they tracked the owner of the Co down and the conversation got a bit heated, the chap outright threatened him, something like “ don’t forget we know where you live”. In this particular case the Co regretted that as my friend aint no push over.

The power game is the African way and by power I mean the violence and basically it comes from the top down. You need to go back in history and realise that basically the ANC were a terrorist organisation. You know, the type that the Americans are oh so worried about.


The poor people of South Africa were promised housing, water and electricity by the ANC and basically it was seen as only the rich white ( privileged) that had “nice things”. 14 years down the track there is no difference and of course it is the rich blacks that have all the nice things and still the poverty.

Many poorer people give up trying to make an honest living to have the basics that people in Europe ( as an example) take for granted, such as a roof over your head. They turn to crime, why ? Because they see so much of it around and that the criminals don’t get caught. It offers results.

Many poor black folk in South Africa believed that having a nice house and car was achieved only because you were white and basically you didn’t have to work, you just had black servants to do everything for you and life was a breeze.

Many black people were promised by the ANC that the rich whites were going to have there nice houses etc taken from them and rightfully given to black people because Africa belongs to the black people. Of course this didn’t happen ( well it has and it hasn’t). Ultimately the non delivery of the ANC in basics like electricity, housing and running water for many means they have been sold a pack of lies which ultimately they have.

I have seen with my own eyes, what is known in SA as Street Children, that is they live in the streets, I have seen them living in cardboard boxes in the middle of winter. At every traffic light in Johannesburg you are hounded with beggars. You are surrounded by poverty.

Does the ANC have a policy to counter this dire poverty – NO. At 40% unemployment and taking in millions of refugees from the North not to mention the illegal immigrants. What are the policies to offer these people a sustainable life of housing, food & water. – NONE. There is no policy.

So what happens – recruitment into crime – EASY.

What is the impact of this – it becomes a part of the culture.

Just look at how the minibus drivers are over there, they are a law unto themselves and most people are scared of them because they know that they all carry weapons and will use them in. There was a recent gun battle in broad daylight in Rivonai.

The term culture shock is very applicable by comparing a UK culture and a South African culture.

Being a tourist and living in South Africa are two completely different things.

Crime in the UK compared to South Africa is two completely different things.

Ask Stanley, the loyal ANC supporter that lives in Australia

Campbells

I am so sorry to hear that Daxk

talbot

Sorry to hear that.....it's too awful.

We are just a few people on this site and have been affected just the last few days so anyone contemplating moving there, when they have the citizenship of another country, must be on a death wish or something!

Tegwyn

No Talbot, I think it is so hard for people to comprehend if they have never lived with it. Even the South Africa I know does not exist anymore. Geography remains somewhat the same, infrastructure declining, but the whole atmosphere has shifted. If it were not for those near and dear left behind, I think I would have walked away from it entirely. Words do not describe what a person goes through when either they or their loved ones come face to face with criminals.

Mitzyboy

Not private .... the comments are here for all to see.