Stuart James

[QUOTE=Becs]I'll be flying over there for a few months next summer, but I too am rather concerned about crime issues. I was told I'd be fine, because my skin is a light brown colour (most people think I'm from the Middle East). According to that theory, I wouldn't be subjected to the type of harassment that a white person would (though my father and sister are white), and the people I'm staying with are black..however, what does everyone here think??

Hi Becs,

Most of the stuff being told about SA is not correct, people are harping back to 2001 -2002. Yes we have crime hear (where doesn't). I worked in and around St Pauls in Bristol and felt more threatened.

White people do get harrassed - but by beggars and not that often, so do black, coloured etc etc etc.

SA has done an amazing job of transformation over the last 10 years. One of the countries to end a white dominated era relatively peacefully, crime is going down, elections are deomcratic.

Yep - i am not a fan of affirmative action as said it is a type of reverse discrimation, but how else to put right 300 years of wrong.

SA has a long way to go - but credit paid where due it is getting there. I hear such c###P about the place, poeple arrive thinking you can't go outside without fearing for your life. You will have an excellent time, just be sensible. The one thing i guarantee is you won't want to go home.

I have been to Zambia. Zim etc all int he last 12 motnhs and believe me its like chalk and cheese compared to SA

Have fun

Stuart James

[
Saw it on tv over here a few years ago..Something else that shocked me in the same documentary, was the couple who had laid landmines around the outside of their eight foot wall and had posted notices to the effect. They got tired of being targeted by crime

Absolute rubbish i'm afraid - no landmines just an electric fence or too. Boring but effective

TouristTrap

Sorry pal. This couple had laid landmines around their home. It happened in the late 90's.

The crime rate in S.A. is higher today than its ever been, the only difference is that a. the S.A. government refuses to provide true statistics, a fact that has been published in the papers over there; and b. Much of it goes unreported. The Medical Research Council of S.A. has stated that the murder rate is over 30 000 per annum whereas the gov't touts a figure of 20 000 or thereabouts. I tend to believe the MRCSA.

In fact, Cape Town has been touted by the S.A. papers as the murder capital of the world. Fine, it might be that Khayelitsha suffers an abnormal amount of crime, but its beginning to spread to the 'walled fortresses' that abound.

Zimbabwe used to be a very prosperous country till about ten years ago. It was a paradise, even under the early years of Mugabe. What you see there is the future of S.A.

Stuart James

Thanks for the information, i don't disagree that we have the odd person who goes over the top, who doesn't. I also agree that not all governments tell the truth (america and Uk for starters) heres some news that might interest you, stuff since 1994: -

The murder rate has decreased 17% since Africa has the 6th biggest increase in GDP per capita

South Africa's investment rating has moved from "unsafe" BB to "safe" BBB in the shortest time of any other country.


In 2003 our police-to-population ration 1:350. In 1994 it was 1:550

We are the fastest growing tourist destination in the world


The Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay is the largest cycle race of its kind in the world.

The JSE ranks 15th in the world's biggest stock exchanges

South Africa has the 8th most developed banking system.

South Africa has the 5th most productive labour force in the world

In rural communities, an astonishing 62% more people now have water.


South Africa has the 6th biggest increase in GDP per capita


SABMiller is the world's largest bottler and distributor of Coca-Cola products outside of the USA?


SA ranks 6th out of 25 emerging economies measured on political and economic stability

Business confidence surged to a 16-year high this quarter after last year's interest rate cuts fuelled a spending boom, boosting the sales of retail goods, motor vehicles and manufactured goods

Worldwide House Price Indices - Performance Ranking

RANKING % CHANGE ON A YEAR AGO LATEST DATA
1. South Africa 27.7 2004 August
2. Hong Kong 26.4 2004 July
3. United Kingdom 18.9 2004 August
4. Spain 17.2 2004 Q2*
5. New Zealand 14.9 2004 August
6. France 14.5 2004 Q2*
7. Israel 12.7 2004 Q2
8. Ireland 11.1 2004 July
9. Australia 10.9 2004 Q2*
10. Italy 10.8 2004 Q2*

Like every where SA has issues, the point is that despite these it is advancing and is not the next Zim. Increasing confidence in the country and international influence will help ensure its not.

The above all comes from www.homecomingrevolution.co.za and www.positivelysa.co.za

Check it out

stu

TouristTrap

Homecomingrevolution is a 'propaganda' arm of the ANC government, and are not taken seriously by anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge about South Africa.

I see you did not address the crime issue, which after all, is the most relevant issue facing South Africans. The fact of the matter is that to live in S.A. is to play russian roulette with your life, no matter how many precautions you take. It might not be today, or tomorrow, not even this year or next year, but eventually one or one's family will be touched by violent crime.

And P.S. Next time an infant or toddler gets gang raped, (an everyday occurence in S.A.) please be sure to inform Associated Press that SAB is the world's second largest bottler of Coca Cola.

DanMarsden

[W]hite farmers are more likely to be killed than almost any other group in society: 274 are killed for every 100,000 people each year."

http://www.economist.com/research/ba...tory_id=760691


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1916969.stm

jjj

Hi there
Lived there for 21 years, do still go back on holiday to see family and friends but will not take our children back to live. They would not have the freedom in SA that they have here. You have to be sensible about not going to certain areas - downtown Joburg and Hillbrow been 2 of them.

Good Luck
JJJ

Stuart James

The quoted data is rather out of date now - as said progres is being made.

That article is dated as below

Thursday, 11 April, 2002, 11:35 GMT 12:35 UK
Living in SA's crime capital


Also i think i do know a smidgen about it - i live here and over 25 of my familly live here, some for in excess of 60 years.

Home coming revolution aligned with the ANC - yep! and i swam to SA. Six out of the 7 founding members are white. Not the nromal stats for the ANC.

Even the 'most developed country' in the world has problems

American men constitute one third of the men in the world who are behind bars.
No country's incarceration rate increased as rapidly as the US rate increased between 1985 and 1995, while many decreased.
More Americans are imprisoned than the total number of citizens imprisoned in 57 different countries around the world.
The US incarceration rate is TWENTY TIMES (20x) & our violent crime rates are 5 times (5x) higher than those of Japan.

Seems even the most developed countries have there problems.

As i said its not perfect here , but its improving all the time. Yes you have to be careful.

As anyone who lives in Cape Town will tell you - this is a fantastic place to live - thats why its one of the top emmigration places for germans, english and dutch.

Uncalled for sarcasm and bad taste about the baby rapes, the point i was making was that investment into SA is gthering pace a fact proved by coca cola's involvement and committment along with many other international companies.

This is Africa my friend - and assuming you have been to Africa you would not confuse SA with central africa. For hundreds of years europeans and americans have been happy to strip it of all its natural resources, lining their own pockets and putting nothing back into the country. Then high and mightly casting judgment from ill formed and second points of view.

Any South African, or person leaving SA has to justify they made the right decision to leave one of the most beautiful countries in the world - often to live ina crap 2 bed flat in London work 12 hours a day and some shit job and be generally miserable.

Improvement deserves encouragement, bad news is easy to find, give SA a break and look for something good.

The Druid

Sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself that its not as bad as it seems, trying to justify staying, how long did you say you had been there three years ???. you must be from California.

RSA was great until 1990 it only went down hill from there, I was raised in Carletonville my dad was in the gold mines, we left because of the horror stories coming down from Rhodesia and my mom and dad did not want us to go in the army to fight in Angola, I went back ten years later for ten years, that makes twenty years in total, the last five of those years were the worst five years in my life so far, I have lost count as to how many of my friends or friends freinds and family have been gunned down or burgled or hi-jacked, even my solicitor got gunned down on the R28 for no apparent reason except that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and some trigger happy person had just stole a new AK .

You are right it is one of the most beautifull countries in the world, but the country is royally screwed with blatant crime, bribary and corruption, you cant even get the roads fixed any more, oh and by the way you forgot to mention that out of the incarcerated US males 80% are African Americans, there is a quaint Afrikaans saying "You can take the African out of the bush, you can't take the bush out of the african". Just go north of the border and see what has happened to all the former colonies, Zaire is one of the richest countries in the world for minerals, since the French left it has been one civil war after another fighting over the mineral rights, I dont like the french but at least they had order and all the people had jobs and food, look at them now, one big sespit !!! One of the former presidents turned out to be one of the richest men in the world after he had died from cancer and Kabila took over, all of the counties cash was stashed in Switzerland while 90% of the populatuion live in poverty.

Open you eyes and smell the roses !!!

G'Day

Double Bullshit!

I lived in SA my whole life and you're talking a load of crap. A woman gets raped in SA every 28 seconds - don't think you had it quite that bad in the good old UK?

Druid, guys you've got it covered. I think Stuart here is trying to pull the wool over some poor saps eyes. Thank goodness for sensible people.

I'll tell you Stuart that my sister bolted out of SA last year to the UK after spending 12 hours being trapped in her house by a gang. That she and her infant son escaped was solely thanks to the fact that they had a "saferoom" where these monsters could not reach them. It didn't stop them from telling her graphically all night long just WHAT they were going to do to her and her son once they got the door open (which they tried to do all night). She called the police three times on her mobile but they never arrived. Turns out they're afraid of moving around in the dark in SA too!

Becs

Jesus christ...I'm genuinely worried about my friend now. She just moved down there and is desperate to come back, but unfortunately her mother is under the illusion that she should stay. I didn't realise I should be fearing for her life

My teacher told me a story of how he regularly witnessed people having tires shoved over their upper bodies, then set alight. This was about 2 years ago. I also have a friend at school whose family left about a year ago because of the violence. The last straw was when her best friend's mother was raped and murdered, because she wouldn't give up her car.

Sorry, I don't fancy living my life behind a three foot thick electric fence.

-Becs

G'Day

Becs,

If you can help your friend get out do so. Family are always a problem, but they can't help you when the hard times hit 'cause they're knee deep in shit too. At least once you're out you CAN help them. Remind your friend of that.

TouristTrap

You stated you've lived there for 3 years. So, you've become the expert. We lived there for decades.

Its a government 'puppet' organization. Doesn't ever post the truth, but all the half-truths. No one takes them seriously.

Yet, no one lives in prison-like homes in the US, like they are forced to do in S.A.

How about the number of those germans/english/dutch emigrants who leave after a short while? No one mentions those, yet even on this small internet board there are a few who have done just that due to the crime situation.

As to improving all the time. The Cape Times had a report on how there are so many squatters moving into Cape Town, that the municipality is getting alarmed. Crime is starting to increase and no, I'm not getting it from the papers but from friends who live/have lived there their entire lives.

What sarcasm? The raping of infants in S.A. to cure HIV/Aids, has been raised to a national pastime. I wish the civilized world's media would campaign against that as much as they did against apartheid.

I lived in S.A. for 15 years. I also lived in Zimbabwe for decades, both under white and black rule. I think I'm more qualified than someone who's lived there for three years, to make a comparison..

South Africa is going the exact same was as Zimbabwe, except the crime rate in S.A. is way higher than Zimbabwe's ever was, even today. They might have burglaries, but the murder/rape rate is a smidgeon of S.A.'s.

As to the person that says the crime in Zims is worse than S.A.'s, up to about five years ago or so, there was basically no crime there, excepting maybe burglaries/car theft. Violent crime has never been a culture in Zimbabwe.

Amazing, when the Europeans/Americans arrived in S.A., it was a highly civilized nation was it?

Now you have the 'Xhosa Nostra' lining their own pockets. There are a few members of the 'elite', all friends/family of the ruling party, who are lining their own pockets, while the rest of the population starves/infrastructure goes to hell. To spend over 10 BILLION on unnecessary military equipment when the FIRST WORLD HEALTHCARE system they inherited has degenerated into 'rest of Africa' standards is acceptable?

Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto was one of the top teaching hospitals in the world. Today its a disgrace.

Groote Schuur Hospital in C.T. was a world-renowned hospital, where the first successful heart transplant was performed. Today, barely a few years after the ANC took power, its a disgrace, threatened with closure due to lack of funds. Where has the money gone? There must be plenty, if they have 10 BILLION to spend on military hardware.

I don't live in the U.K. I have a wonderful life in the USA. While S.A. is beautiful, there are other beautiful countries in the world outside S.A., the one I'm living in now being a case in point. And here I can enjoy the outdoors, without having to carry my firearm.

Someone has to point out the government flaws. Unfortunately, South Africans have always been ostriches. They'd rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend that all is hunky dory, rather than hold their governments accountable. Saw it in Zimbabwe, see it in South Africans.

Stuart James

I suppose i could rant on about this but we are all entitled to our opinions, you chose to leave i choice to stay. You are obviously happy where you are which is great, i too am happy with SA. You did forget one thing when analysing South Africans and throwing a blanket over the entire country and its people - the fact that SA's that leave SA forever love to bitch about SA and keep on doing it.

On another note as i failed to make my point i'll see if some others can (hopefully ones that you cannot accredit to some ANC propaganda machine)

- The optimist sees opportunity in every danger; the pessimist sees danger in every opportunity.� Winston Churchill, as quoted in Made It, Hulton Getty

- “We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements in life, when all that we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiastic about.� Charles Kingsley, as quoted in Made It, Hulton Getty

- With so many challenges and opportunities, South Africans can make a real positive difference to the lives of others. As South African rabbi, Warren Goldstein, puts it: “Our lives are full of significance here. It may not always be ‘Pleasantville’, but it’s meaningful�.

“For every guy who holds up a gun, there are 99 who hold out a hand of friendship.� Dennis Beckett, journalist


- Also accepting the challenges is half the battle, i never said it was perfect i said it was getting better and better, have a look below about challenges: -

- Pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as is being positive. … Typically, those who are actively involved in doing something about the problems around them are more optimistic.� Wayne Visser and Guy Lundy

How about some facts on crime rather than opinion, it is simply not true that SA has the highest crime rate in the world: -

- Colombia has the highest rate of intentional homicide per 100 000 people
- Australia has the highest burglary rate
- Spain has the highest robbery rate
- Norway has the highest rate of drug offences
- Homerton Hospital in the London district of Hackney treats more gunshot and knife wounds per capita each month than the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto.
- Almost twice as many cars are stolen in Buenos Aires than in Johannesburg, three times more breaking and entering happens in Dar Es Salaam and twice as much robbery happens in Rio de Janeiro
- Making sense of South Africa is, as I see it, a two-eyed business. That so many people have been suckered into applying only one eye, the dismal eye, not only makes for dreary conversation, but also risks making a self-fulfilling prophecy. ‘Hijackings!’ they wail. ‘Muggings! Poverty! Let’s get our money out! And then follow it!

TouristTrap

Stuart, come and talk to us when a close friend/relative is raped/murdered/hijacked, like has happened to many of my colleagues; a close friend murdered in his driveway for nothing, they didn't even take his car; myriads of acquaintances also hijacked/murdered/shot at; or when your house is burgled countless times, one of the times your shotgun stolen and the cops tell you that they're not interested in coming over, as happened to me. Or when friends of yours are held by five people at gunpoint, wielding AK47's, and the cops tell you they can't come out because they don't have petrol in the car.

You have been there three years. I hope that none of that happens to you or any of your loved ones.

.