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new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Old Apr 25th 2010, 6:56 pm
  #91  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
First is that there are only 66,000 annual H2B visas (seasonal worker visas) available towards a needed workforce of about 10 million.
More than 10 million USCs without jobs at the moment. Of course, these 10 million might expect a decent wage and treatment......so are not perhaps as sought after as the imported variety.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:17 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
More than 10 million USCs without jobs at the moment. Of course, these 10 million might expect a decent wage and treatment......so are not perhaps as sought after as the imported variety.
That is true but probably about 5 million are on farms which Americans (or even legal Latinos) will not take because the minimum wage is very low, they are exempt from overtime laws, the work is back breaking, the hours are long and normally require weekend work, they get no benefits, and they have to move regularly not allowing their children to get a proper education. Even in the inland California agricultural areas, they move up and down the valley as crops come in. Most of the others work in sweat shops, temporary housekeeping jobs, or try to find casual labor.

What happens even if it was possible to drive all the illegals out of the country and somehow forcing Americans to take those jobs. When the labor force returns to normal, all those industries would go under or a blind eye would have to be turned again.

Last edited by Michael; Apr 25th 2010 at 7:31 pm.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:24 pm
  #93  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
That is true but probably about 5 million are on farms which Americans (or even legal Latinos) will not take because the minimum wage is very low, they are exempt from overtime, the work is back breaking, the hours are long, they get no benefits, and they have to move regularly not allowing their children to get a proper education. Most of the others work in sweat shops, housekeeping jobs, or try to find casual labor.

What happens even if it was possible drive all the illegals out of the country forcing Americans to take those jobs. When the labor force returns to normal, all those industries would go under.
So why don't you think labor conditions would improve if the employer's only choice was American workers?
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:26 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
Most of the others work in sweat shops, housekeeping jobs, or try to find casual labor.
I wouldn't be so sure. This is just an anecdote but it really surprised me: I have a friend whose boyfriend is an illegal. He's worked for several years - illegally, of course - for a fairly well known transportation company in the SF area. Apparently, that company employs many illegals in jobs such as mechanics and clerical positions.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
What happens even if it was possible drive all the illegals out of the country forcing Americans to take those jobs. When the labor force returns to normal, all those industries would go under.
Not to mention the trickle down economy that Republicans are so fond of. All of these illegals still need to buy lunch, clothe themselves, get haircuts, buy gas, etc etc. I recall reading a NY Times article about some little podunk town somewhere that really cracked down on "migrant" workers and suddenly found the town's economy in ruins. (tried a quick search for the story, few years back and can't find it).

Edited to add: Here it is http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/ny...pagewanted=all

Last edited by sir_eccles; Apr 25th 2010 at 7:34 pm.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:35 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by sir_eccles
I recall reading a NY Times article about some little podunk town somewhere that really cracked down on "migrant" workers and suddenly found the town's economy in ruins. (tried a quick search for the story, few years back and can't find it).
Your chosen home is not such a bad example, either. The recession in Phoenix and the exodus are related.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:40 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
So why don't you think labor conditions would improve if the employer's only choice was American workers?
The problem is that many work in very price sensitive industries (farming, clothes manufacturing, etc.). If US farm prices rise significantly, the US government would need to significantly increase the current $20 billion farm subsidy so that farmers could sell their products on the worlds markets (currently the number 1 export in the US). Clothes manufacturer has already lost a lot of their business to third world countries.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:46 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I wouldn't be so sure. This is just an anecdote but it really surprised me: I have a friend whose boyfriend is an illegal. He's worked for several years - illegally, of course - for a fairly well known transportation company in the SF area. Apparently, that company employs many illegals in jobs such as mechanics and clerical positions.
There is likely a small number (probably less than 10%) that work in well paying industries (probably mostly Europeans) but the government knows exactly where to go to find illegals. It wasn't a coincidence that when the government raided "American Apparel", 1,500 illegals were found.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:46 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
If US farm prices rise significantly, the US government would need to significantly increase the current $20 billion farm subsidy so that farmers could sell their products on the worlds markets (currently the number 1 export in the US).
Count me unimpressed at an export that relies on a combination of illegal labour and government subsidies.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:47 pm
  #100  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
The problem is that many work in very price sensitive industries (farming, clothes manufacturing, etc.). If US farm prices rise significantly, the US government would need to significantly increase the current $20 billion farm subsidy so that farmers could sell their products on the worlds markets (currently the number 1 export in the US). Clothes manufacturer has already lost a lot of their business to third world countries.
So either we import a cheap, malleable workforce or we export the jobs there instead. I feel there maybe more choices than this.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by sir_eccles
Not to mention the trickle down economy that Republicans are so fond of. All of these illegals still need to buy lunch, clothe themselves, get haircuts, buy gas, etc etc. I recall reading a NY Times article about some little podunk town somewhere that really cracked down on "migrant" workers and suddenly found the town's economy in ruins. (tried a quick search for the story, few years back and can't find it).

Edited to add: Here it is http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/ny...pagewanted=all
If immigration cracked down hard on the inland valley of California, it is likely that every city in the valley would go into bankruptcy.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
So either we import a cheap, malleable workforce or we export the jobs there instead. I feel there maybe more choices than this.
Unless farms and sweat shops can mechanize to significantly reduce the number of labors needed, there doesn't seem to be any real solution.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:56 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
Your chosen home is not such a bad example, either. The recession in Phoenix and the exodus are related.
I just read that AILA has pulled their September conference from Scottsdale and are shopping for a new location in another state.

And that the SC governor thinks there's a labor problem because Americans are 'lazy'.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 7:59 pm
  #104  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
Count me unimpressed at an export that relies on a combination of illegal labour and government subsidies.
Its not only that but if farm prices rise too much, local consumption for products from US farms will likely drop also since import tariffs on farm products can't be raised because of international trade agreements.
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Old Apr 25th 2010, 8:03 pm
  #105  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Michael
There are two major problems with current US immigration law.

First is that there are only 66,000 annual H2B visas (seasonal worker visas) available towards a needed workforce of about 10 million.

The second problem is that the government must prove that employers knowingly hired an illegal immigrant in order to be fined. In order to increase the fine, the government must prove that the employer knowingly hired each of the illegals and not just prove that the employer had a policy to hire illegal immigrants. Fines are civil and criminal prosecution is now allowed. Therefore seldom does the government impose fines on employers of illegal immigrants.

There is an ideological split on how immigration should be handled. Republicans generally favor low quotas for seasonal workers to prove that they are tough on immigration but generally favor weak enforcement since they worry that large companies such as Archer Daniels Midland could go under if illegals were not hired by those companies.

Democrats generally have the opposite beliefs supporting very high seasonal worker quotas and strong enforcement but oppose strong enforcement since the quota is so low.

Nothing will be solved until those issues can be resolved.
Succinctly put. It's the failure of both Republicans and Democrats over the years that has caused what we see now. Don't forget that many US businesses operate in Mexico for obvious reasons. If other States adopt AZ's hard line to remove the problem of illegals, many jobs might disappear from the US forever. I don't suppose they thought about that when they passed this law. They're only looking for short term gain to get re-elected.
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