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new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Old Apr 15th 2010, 6:42 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by A I
Interesting argument. I'd answer that the makeup of the court has changed, and the same case today would have a different outcome.
Also, they could be merely forced to pay the cost of the service, same as is done for F-1 students in High School effectively accomplishing the same thing.
The court's also changed a little since Marbury and Madison.....but that precedent still holds good.

They can certainly try to overturn it. I'm not as sure as you it'd wash, even with the current make-up.
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 6:43 pm
  #62  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by chartreuse
One aspect of not being a citizen and therefore not having a vote is that whatever happens, it's not my fault. Quite liberating, actually.
Your day will come!
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 6:54 pm
  #63  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
The you'd be breaking the law of the land! See: Pyler v. Doe 457 U.S. 202.
SC has already done this. Passed a law last year to block illegal immigrants from attending school:

http://diverseeducation.com/article/12318/

An unintended consequence is it also impacts new legal residents because now you have to be a PR to go to school. Of course they didn't allow for K1ers and the like so while sat in limbo they can't attend school or college. With such a powerful brain like Gov. Mark "walkabout apology-tour" Sanford at the helm, what did you expect?! DUMB!
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 6:56 pm
  #64  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
The court's also changed a little since Marbury and Madison.....but that precedent still holds good.

They can certainly try to overturn it. I'm not as sure as you it'd wash, even with the current make-up.
I wouldn't be so sure. Some of what I read appeared to suggests that if the states had a congressional mandate they would be open to the measures.

I don't see why it would be legal to Charge the F-1s and not the Illegal Immigrants.
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 7:10 pm
  #65  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Brit3964
SC has already done this. Passed a law last year to block illegal immigrants from attending school:

http://diverseeducation.com/article/12318/

An unintended consequence is it also impacts new legal residents because now you have to be a PR to go to school. Of course they didn't allow for K1ers and the like so while sat in limbo they can't attend school or college. With such a powerful brain like Gov. Mark "walkabout apology-tour" Sanford at the helm, what did you expect?! DUMB!
But not at the high school level which, I believe, was A.I.'s suggestion. Arizona has a similar law for our undocumented brethren attending college, bought about through that ugly ballot proposition mechanism. It charges out-of-state fees unless you are legally here.
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 7:15 pm
  #66  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by fatbrit
But not at the high school level which, I believe, was A.I.'s suggestion. Arizona has a similar law for our undocumented brethren attending college, bought about through that ugly ballot proposition mechanism. It charges out-of-state fees unless you are legally here.
Found it!

http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/inde...300_%282006%29
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 8:03 pm
  #67  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by chartreuse
States that allow carry in bars typically disallow carry when inebriated. It is possible to go on licensed premises and not get pissed, you know?

You also appear to have ignored A I's point about how criminals tend to break laws...
How many dedicated drivers do you know around here?

In a bar, people are likely to drink...arguments happen...it's just crazy that you are willing to have that temptation of drunk people with guns....not to mention someone having a couple of pints willing to have a shoot out if someone goes to heist the place? Not exactly up to their best judgement.
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Old Apr 15th 2010, 8:23 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by Bob
How many dedicated drivers do you know around here?

In a bar, people are likely to drink...arguments happen...it's just crazy that you are willing to have that temptation of drunk people with guns....not to mention someone having a couple of pints willing to have a shoot out if someone goes to heist the place? Not exactly up to their best judgment.
Bob, I don't disagree with you. I would also refer back to the point I made. Currently bar shootings happen, except those that respect the law and are license to carry leave their weapons outside. Would we not be better off with additional responsible individuals being allowed to carry, in addition to the current criminals, that take the "license" provided to them by virtue of their ignoring of the law ? Only law abiding citizens do not carry to the bar.

Sadly we cannot regulate our way back to no weapons for anybody. That line has long past and is not feasible in the US where everyone is already armed to the teeth.

I have not heard yet a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise, but I have an open mind, and could be persuaded if the argument was convincing.
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 1:21 am
  #69  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by A I
Bob, I don't disagree with you. I would also refer back to the point I made. Currently bar shootings happen, except those that respect the law and are license to carry leave their weapons outside. Would we not be better off with additional responsible individuals being allowed to carry, in addition to the current criminals, that take the "license" provided to them by virtue of their ignoring of the law ? Only law abiding citizens do not carry to the bar.

Sadly we cannot regulate our way back to no weapons for anybody. That line has long past and is not feasible in the US where everyone is already armed to the teeth.

I have not heard yet a convincing argument to persuade me otherwise, but I have an open mind, and could be persuaded if the argument was convincing.
How about the "teabaggers" own guns? Would that work?
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 6:57 am
  #70  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by A I
That's another can of worms.... (And sorry to get off-topic)

Do you agree with these premises:

1)Only law abiding citizens obey the law. Criminals ignore the law.
2)There is no easy way to Only way to check for a CONCEALED weapon possession.

It follows that if it is legally forbidden to carry a concealed firearm into a bar, and there is no way to easily enforce the regulation, only those that don't follow the law will carry concealed firearms to the bar. This is the current scenario (and one that sucks)

Another side....
In Texas, Gun ownership is quite loose, and quite frequently a Robber is shot by the homeowner. Although I have never had a gun at home, I think of this as "herd immunity caused by fear", many burglars are concerned they will be shot if they enter an occupied home, because so many citizens exercise their right to have weapons. The legal right of citizens to have a weapon at home and use it to defend themselves discourages robberies, even if I choose not to exercise that right. In Texas homeowners are very well protected legally from prosecution and liability when defending house and property against robbery.

Criminals carry weapons everywhere. I don't mind a trained civilian having that same opportunity to carry a concealed weapon without fear of prosecution.
I am not sure that home burglary rates are especially different in Texas than most others States http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/10s0297.pdf
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 9:23 am
  #71  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by A I
Currently bar shootings happen, except those that respect the law and are license to carry leave their weapons outside...Only law abiding citizens do not carry to the bar.
Yeah, but your argument is based on a false premise that there are two types of people in the world: criminals that carry guns into bars and are liable to shoot people, and law-abiding citizens that wouldn't shoot anyone even if they did carry guns in there. But bar brawls are spontaneous and unplanned, and people just fight with whatever they have to hand. Right now there are plenty of "law abiding" citizens that get into brawls and the only reason they're not shooting the gaff up is because they don't have their gun to hand; it's not because they're morally superior people.

And from the other angle, it's not realistic to think that there will be a significant deterrent effect to the naughty people because they might think other patrons will have guns, for three reasons: firstly, if you were thinking logically you wouldn't get into a public fight in a bar in the first place because there's rarely a point to them; secondly, they're pissed; and thirdly, people who go to the kinds of bars where people regularly pull out guns on each other (and they do exist) already suspect that other patrons will have guns on them, legal or not.
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 11:17 am
  #72  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by lapin_windstar
Yeah, but your argument is based on a false premise that there are two types of people in the world: criminals that carry guns into bars and are liable to shoot people, and law-abiding citizens that wouldn't shoot anyone even if they did carry guns in there. But bar brawls are spontaneous and unplanned, and people just fight with whatever they have to hand. Right now there are plenty of "law abiding" citizens that get into brawls and the only reason they're not shooting the gaff up is because they don't have their gun to hand; it's not because they're morally superior people.

And from the other angle, it's not realistic to think that there will be a significant deterrent effect to the naughty people because they might think other patrons will have guns, for three reasons: firstly, if you were thinking logically you wouldn't get into a public fight in a bar in the first place because there's rarely a point to them; secondly, they're pissed; and thirdly, people who go to the kinds of bars where people regularly pull out guns on each other (and they do exist) already suspect that other patrons will have guns on them, legal or not.
You know what my solution is? Don't go to that sort of bar But It's not right to curtail the right of citizens to own guns and carry them because some of them go nuts.
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 12:51 pm
  #73  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by chrisfromusa
You know what my solution is? Don't go to that sort of bar .
That's not a solution.

Originally Posted by chrisfromusa
But It's not right to curtail the right of citizens to own guns and carry them because some of them go nuts.
Yes it is. Alcohol critically impairs judgment. That's why it's illegal to drink and drive, regardless of what "sort" of bar the drinking was done at.
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 1:34 pm
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by tonrob
Yes it is. Alcohol critically impairs judgment. That's why it's illegal to drink and drive, regardless of what "sort" of bar the drinking was done at.
Precisely - which is why I pointed out that many states allow carry on licensed premises while prohibiting carry while drinking. I don't drive pissed. I don't carry pissed either.
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Old Apr 16th 2010, 2:59 pm
  #75  
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Default Re: new Arizona illegal immigration enforcement law

Originally Posted by tonrob
Yes it is. Alcohol critically impairs judgment. That's why it's illegal to drink and drive, regardless of what "sort" of bar the drinking was done at.
Exactly. Would you go to a gun range with the intent to use a gun and drink?
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