Elgoog

I know someone who is a permanent resident, has been married to a US
citizen for over 20 years and has never applied to become a naturalized
US citizen. What I am wondering is what are your opinions out there on
becoming a US citizen?

This person is living in the US for love, not for money, or politics,
or nationality. To me, it seems a very grave decision to become a US
citizen. This person harbors no ill-feelings to the US and is grateful
for their life in the US, but still loves her homeland and is very
proud of her nationality. She is reluctant to become a US citizen
because it would feel like a betrayal of her heritage and her homeland;
although, she is very supportive of the US and it's role in the world.

As one might glean from my previous post on estate taxes, the only
reason for becoming a US citizen for her might be solely to protect her
rights to what her and her spouse have worked so hard to attain. She is
active in the community, a volunteer and does much to give back to the
community through hard work, giving of herself, her time and generous
contributions to help those less fortunate. She is the person that I
most admire in the world and I care deeply about looking out for her
future. Taking that step to become a US citizen is an emotional
decision, but seems the only way to protect her future should her US
spouse die before she does.

Does anyone else out there struggle with the emotional component of
becoming a US citizen? Any words of advice in helping someone to cope
with "taking the oath?"

-elgoog

fatbrit

Reasonably simple, I think. If you have some attachment to the US and intend to hang out here occasionally, you should naturalize assuming your home country doesn't make a big deal of it. I can't see the emotional aspect for it, I'm afraid. Or, at least, the practicality of doing it overrides these.

Reasons for:
* You get the immigration bureaucrats off your back for ever. And this will save you money, time, and Ibuprofen.
* It's bloody difficult to deport you as a naturalized citizen (but somewhat easier if you're only a GC holder).
* You can go abroad and stay abroad as long as you like.
* You can work for 'citizen only" jobs.

Reasons against:
* Taxation on global income. But you've got this anyway if you've got a GC, and even more issues are tied up with it in that case.
* Not the most popular world nationality. But you can always hide the US passport under your real one when abroad, or quickly eat it if you are on a hijacked plane.
* You've no excuse to escape jury duty, anymore.

meauxna

there was an interesting discussion about that part of the decision here: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/in...owtopic=41225&

Note that your friend's ability to hold two nationalities depends mainly on the rules of her country of current citizenship.

Publicus

Isn't that her choice not to become a Citizen? Why are you bothering
yourself?
If she cannot uphold the United States Constitution before that of her
motherland, she should not become a US Citizen. Allegiance to the
United States, means defending the US against all enemies, foreign and
domestic. That can include her motherland as well.

Elgoog

Publicus wrote:
    > Isn't that her choice not to become a Citizen? Why are you bothering
    > yourself?

Of course it is her choice. Why bother, because if her husband should
die, she will lose nearly 40 percent of the estate to taxes: that goes
for jointly held assets as well as assets in her name or his name -
community property. The difference is being able to keep her hard
earned assets and live without worry as opposed to being forced to work
in her retirement years and probably not being able to hang on to her
home. I understand there are others who are worse off, but becoming a
US citizen will protect the estate from being taxed at least until she
dies as well.

    > If she cannot uphold the United States Constitution before that of her
    > motherland, she should not become a US Citizen.

Unquestionably agreed.

    > Allegiance to the
    > United States, means defending the US against all enemies, foreign and
    > domestic. That can include her motherland as well.

While highly improbable, what you state is a fact and underscores the
gravity of the oath and her decision, whatever she decides. If she did
not take the oath seriously, then she would have become a citizen long
ago. She would not take the oath regardless of what she risks losing
monetarily, if she could not live by it.

So, as to your question, why bother myself? Because, I care about her,
her well-being and understanding the elements of the decision she is
grappling with.

-elgoog

Elgoog

meauxna wrote:
    > > I know someone who is a permanent resident, has been married to a US
    > > citizen for over 20 years and has never applied to become a
    > > naturalized
    > > US citizen. What I am wondering is what are your opinions out there on
    > > becoming a US citizen?
    > >
    > > This person is living in the US for love, not for money, or politics,
    > > or nationality. To me, it seems a very grave decision to become a US
    > > citizen. This person harbors no ill-feelings to the US and is grateful
    > > for their life in the US, but still loves her homeland and is very
    > > proud of her nationality. She is reluctant to become a US citizen
    > > because it would feel like a betrayal of her heritage and her
    > > homeland;
    > > although, she is very supportive of the US and it's role in the world.
    > >
    > > As one might glean from my previous post on estate taxes, the only
    > > reason for becoming a US citizen for her might be solely to protect
    > > her
    > > rights to what her and her spouse have worked so hard to attain. She
    > > is
    > > active in the community, a volunteer and does much to give back to the
    > > community through hard work, giving of herself, her time and generous
    > > contributions to help those less fortunate. She is the person that I
    > > most admire in the world and I care deeply about looking out for her
    > > future. Taking that step to become a US citizen is an emotional
    > > decision, but seems the only way to protect her future should her US
    > > spouse die before she does.
    > >
    > > Does anyone else out there struggle with the emotional component of
    > > becoming a US citizen? Any words of advice in helping someone to cope
    > > with "taking the oath?"
    > >
    > > -elgoog
    > there was an interesting discussion about that part of the decision
    > here: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/in...owtopic=41225&
    > Note that your friend's ability to hold two nationalities depends mainly
    > on the rules of her country of current citizenship.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Interesting discussion of dual citizenship, thanks for that. In this
particular case, this person's home country will still recognize her as
a citizen. The US, of course, does not recognize any special status for
those who maintain citizenship in another country - you are either a US
citizen, or you are not.

Elgoog

fatbrit wrote:
    > > I know someone who is a permanent resident, has been married to a US
    > > citizen for over 20 years and has never applied to become a
    > > naturalized
    > > US citizen. What I am wondering is what are your opinions out there on
    > > becoming a US citizen?
    > >
    > > This person is living in the US for love, not for money, or politics,
    > > or nationality. To me, it seems a very grave decision to become a US
    > > citizen. This person harbors no ill-feelings to the US and is grateful
    > > for their life in the US, but still loves her homeland and is very
    > > proud of her nationality. She is reluctant to become a US citizen
    > > because it would feel like a betrayal of her heritage and her
    > > homeland;
    > > although, she is very supportive of the US and it's role in the world.
    > >
    > > As one might glean from my previous post on estate taxes, the only
    > > reason for becoming a US citizen for her might be solely to protect
    > > her
    > > rights to what her and her spouse have worked so hard to attain. She
    > > is
    > > active in the community, a volunteer and does much to give back to the
    > > community through hard work, giving of herself, her time and generous
    > > contributions to help those less fortunate. She is the person that I
    > > most admire in the world and I care deeply about looking out for her
    > > future. Taking that step to become a US citizen is an emotional
    > > decision, but seems the only way to protect her future should her US
    > > spouse die before she does.
    > >
    > > Does anyone else out there struggle with the emotional component of
    > > becoming a US citizen? Any words of advice in helping someone to cope
    > > with "taking the oath?"
    > >
    > > -elgoog
    > Reasonably simple, I think. If you have some attachment to the US and
    > intend to hang out here occasionally, you should naturalize assuming
    > your home country doesn't make a big deal of it. I can't see the
    > emotional aspect for it, I'm afraid. Or, at least, the practicality of
    > doing it overrides these.
    > Reasons for:
    > * You get the immigration bureaucrats off your back for ever. And this
    > will save you money, time, and Ibuprofen.
    > * It's bloody difficult to deport you as a naturalized citizen (but
    > somewhat easier if you're only a GC holder).
    > * You can go abroad and stay abroad as long as you like.
    > * You can work for 'citizen only" jobs.
    > Reasons against:
    > * Taxation on global income. But you've got this anyway if you've got a
    > GC, and even more issues are tied up with it in that case.
    > * Not the most popular world nationality. But you can always hide the US
    > passport under your real one when abroad, or quickly eat it if you are
    > on a hijacked plane.
    > * You've no excuse to escape jury duty, anymore.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

I like your pragmatism. Thanks.

-elgoog

deng890

Very true.

If UK law was different, and required me to give up my UK citizenship when naturalizing as a US citizen, Id def. have had doubts about naturalizing. It really did help ease the "emotional" connection that the UK as well as the US don't seem to have an issue with dual citizenship.

Also, I figured that the only time Id ever have a real "emotional" issue with naturalizing is if the US declared war on the UK, and demanded I join up to fight against the UK army. That would be a problem for me to do, but somehow I don't see that happening anytime soon!

So, all in all I personally felt it was a good decision to naturalize!

sgallagher

    > > Does anyone else out there struggle with the emotional component of
    > > becoming a US citizen? Any words of advice in helping someone to cope
    > > with "taking the oath?"
    > Reasonably simple, I think. If you have some attachment to the US and
    > intend to hang out here occasionally, you should naturalize assuming
    > your home country doesn't make a big deal of it. I can't see the
    > emotional aspect for it, I'm afraid. Or, at least, the practicality of
    > doing it overrides these.
    > Reasons for:
    > * You get the immigration bureaucrats off your back for ever. And this
    > will save you money, time, and Ibuprofen.

And some other bureaucrats as well. Last year my mother went to get a
new driver's license, and because she holds a GC, she had to wait an
extra two weeks while they "verified" her immigration status.

    > * It's bloody difficult to deport you as a naturalized citizen (but
    > somewhat easier if you're only a GC holder).
    > * You can go abroad and stay abroad as long as you like.
    > * You can work for 'citizen only" jobs.

And don't forget, once you become a citizen you can vote.

    > Reasons against:
    > * Taxation on global income. But you've got this anyway if you've got a
    > GC, and even more issues are tied up with it in that case.
    > * Not the most popular world nationality. But you can always hide the US
    > passport under your real one when abroad, or quickly eat it if you are
    > on a hijacked plane.

Potentially. Like you say, it depends on whether your original country
makes a big deal of it. The nationality of your original country may
automatically take away your original citizenship when you take another
citizenship, or it may not. Each country is different, and the outcome
will depend on the laws of the original country.

Publicus

To your comment: "Why bother, because if her husband should
die, she will lose nearly 40 percent of the estate to taxes: that goes
for jointly held assets as well as assets in her name or his name -
community property. The difference is being able to keep her hard
earned assets and live without worry as opposed to being forced to work
in her retirement years and probably not being able to hang on to her
home. I understand there are others who are worse off, but becoming a
US citizen will protect the estate from being taxed at least until she
dies as well."

I know of no law that will prohibit her from her right to her estate if
she is legal here. The law protects US citizens and permanent residents
equally when it comes to finances. Maybe criminal law is not equal for
all, but it was my understanding that business law is equal. I think
she should speak to an estate and wills attorney, and or a financial
planner and see what her choices are. And please inform her to get a
second opinion from different professionals whenever she cans.

And you are right. It is commendable of you to look out for your
friend. :)

Elgoog

Publicus wrote:
    > To your comment: "Why bother, because if her husband should
    > die, she will lose nearly 40 percent of the estate to taxes: that goes
    > for jointly held assets as well as assets in her name or his name -
    > community property. The difference is being able to keep her hard
    > earned assets and live without worry as opposed to being forced to work
    > in her retirement years and probably not being able to hang on to her
    > home. I understand there are others who are worse off, but becoming a
    > US citizen will protect the estate from being taxed at least until she
    > dies as well."
    > I know of no law that will prohibit her from her right to her estate if
    > she is legal here. The law protects US citizens and permanent residents
    > equally when it comes to finances. Maybe criminal law is not equal for
    > all, but it was my understanding that business law is equal. I think
    > she should speak to an estate and wills attorney, and or a financial
    > planner and see what her choices are. And please inform her to get a
    > second opinion from different professionals whenever she cans.
    > And you are right. It is commendable of you to look out for your
    > friend. :)

I've had professionals tell me that her status as a permanent resident
has a bearing on how the estate tax will be applied. It will be applied
the same as it would for a non-spouse.

One alternative is to transfer all property and assets to the names of
the children and trust they will take care of their mother; but, such
an action is legally complicated, expensive and incurs taxation itself.

Neathborn

Yes, I've struggled with this one. I've been in the U.S. for 15 years now and only this year did I finally decide to apply for U.S. citizenship. One of the main reasons I finally bit the bullet and applied is that I have two young children and should anything happen to my husband, the high tax would really jeopardize our future here. I also have parents who are getting on in age and I didn't want to have to worry about being able to get back into the U.S. again should I have to be back in the UK for any length of time.

I don't think it's an easy decision at all and it's not always right for everyone, but I finally came to the conclusion that I had to do what was best for my family.

scrubbedexpat099

Must admit I think it is an extremely easy descion.

I had absolutely no intent of naturalisation initially.

But I have found out that it is the absolute no brainer, especially with Estate scam which was news to me.

I accept that there may be some who can not have dual citizenship and for them there are additional considerations.

It is not as if you are permanetly marked for life, you can always forfeit it if circumstances change.

I look at it as the same as getting a SSN, GC and DL, just another process.

sgallagher

Publicus wrote:
    > To your comment: "Why bother, because if her husband should
    > die, she will lose nearly 40 percent of the estate to taxes: that goes
    > for jointly held assets as well as assets in her name or his name -
    > community property. The difference is being able to keep her hard
    > earned assets and live without worry as opposed to being forced to work
    > in her retirement years and probably not being able to hang on to her
    > home. I understand there are others who are worse off, but becoming a
    > US citizen will protect the estate from being taxed at least until she
    > dies as well."
    > I know of no law that will prohibit her from her right to her estate if
    > she is legal here. The law protects US citizens and permanent residents
    > equally when it comes to finances.

Actually, US estate tax laws do treat surviving spouses differently
when they are not US citizens. When a spouse dies, and the surviving
spouse is a US citizen, the entire estate can pass to the surviving
spouse, free of estate tax. BUT, when the surviving spouse is NOT a US
citizen then the estate does not fall under the unlimited marital
deduction.

John Smith

A bunch of people still in PR because once they become citizen of different
country, doesn't have to be USC then they will lose their right to their
property or estates on their country of citizenship.

In my case, I'm going to be USC because I want to bring my wife to the US.
But she will keep her citizenship so at least one of us can have property in
our native country in case we decided to retire there. If we both USC then
we have to sell our property in less than 1 year.


"elgoog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
    >I know someone who is a permanent resident, has been married to a US
    > citizen for over 20 years and has never applied to become a naturalized
    > US citizen. What I am wondering is what are your opinions out there on
    > becoming a US citizen?
    > This person is living in the US for love, not for money, or politics,
    > or nationality. To me, it seems a very grave decision to become a US
    > citizen. This person harbors no ill-feelings to the US and is grateful
    > for their life in the US, but still loves her homeland and is very
    > proud of her nationality. She is reluctant to become a US citizen
    > because it would feel like a betrayal of her heritage and her homeland;
    > although, she is very supportive of the US and it's role in the world.
    > As one might glean from my previous post on estate taxes, the only
    > reason for becoming a US citizen for her might be solely to protect her
    > rights to what her and her spouse have worked so hard to attain. She is
    > active in the community, a volunteer and does much to give back to the
    > community through hard work, giving of herself, her time and generous
    > contributions to help those less fortunate. She is the person that I
    > most admire in the world and I care deeply about looking out for her
    > future. Taking that step to become a US citizen is an emotional
    > decision, but seems the only way to protect her future should her US
    > spouse die before she does.
    > Does anyone else out there struggle with the emotional component of
    > becoming a US citizen? Any words of advice in helping someone to cope
    > with "taking the oath?"
    > -elgoog
    >