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Old Dec 15th 2001, 11:14 pm   #1
Javier Rodriguez
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This statement is for those americans (I know that there are still many of them) that
still think that Spain must be somewhere in SouthAmerica and that Spaniards are like
those hispanics/latinos that cross your borders to get into your country. I have to
write this because I get upset every time I go to learn English to the US and there
is always someone that asks me: "How can you be latino and white?". What???.
Latino???. Hispanic???. Me???. It´s incredible the lack of knowing that still have
some americans (an unbelievable number of them). Spaniards are Europeans, white,
caucasians and We have nothing to be with latinos and Hispanics (exceptuating the
language). In fact we are not latinos as you americans think of. When you americans
talk about latinos you are talking about a race not a culture (you can tell this
because in the US census there is a place where it says: White, Blacks, Latinos,..,
so latinos for you is a race). In this case we are not latinos because we are
caucasians. But if you talk about latino countries yes you are talking about Spain,
Italy, Portugal, Greece, ... This would be correct. We are not either Hispanics
because this term means "derivated from Hispania, Spain" but doesn´t relate to the
people living in Spain, it relates to the countries that have been related to Spain,
but not Spaniards and Spain.

So whenever you see a Spaniard in the US don´t call him latino or hispanic because
that is absolutely not correct (and some of them will get a little upset). In fact
the great majority of Spaniards haven´t meet a latino or a Hispanic ever although in
the last 3 or 4 years We are experiencing a massive inmigration from latinoamerican
countries to Spain (especially Colombians and Ecuatorians) so nowadays We can say
that there is some kind of interaction with them (in any case any Spaniard can
distinguish a latino from a Spaniard in the street 100 meters far away). And we are
having a lot of problems with them (there are 60 gangs of Colombians in Spain
stealing and killing because drugs and many other problems). Main cities of Spain
(Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla, and many others) have hundred of thousands of
people from Latinoamerican countries (indians), north africans (muslims) and so, so
don´t think that if you come to Spain and see the people in the airport or the subway
that these people are Spaniards because lots of them are not. Maybe you americans
think that Spaniards and Latinos have a lot of things in common, that We have a lot
of interaction, and We make parties and get together and are happy whenever we see a
hispanic in the street. That is also false. The only interaction that we have with
them is a reunion of Presidents of Iberoamerican (also Portugal and Brasil) countries
once a year (in fact those presidents are descendents from Europeans and have nothing
to do with Latino race), and also whenever We invest in their countries or also in
the Day of Hispanity (in fact this is a conmemoration that comes from Spain, each
12th October to conmemorate the American Discover, although many mexicans say it´s
the "Day of La Raza"?). Of course the great majority of Hispanics when they go to the
US say that they are from Spain and that they have ancestors from Spain just to claim
that they have european blood. Even latino medias in the US try also to confuse and
pretend that Spaniards and LatinoAmericans are from the same culture, same blood, the
same race, when the only thing in common is the language. I have had some experiences
with this kind of situations when I was in the US. For example when my host family
tells me that there are some Spaniards that want to meet me and I go there and see
that they are Mexicans, I don´t have anything against them either but this reflects
the confusion of americans that think that Spaniards and Hispanics/Latinos is the
same thing.

In fact many americans think that all Hispanics/Latino have Spanish blood on them.
This is incredible!, there are a lot of reasons I can tell you to prove that this is
not right but just with a calculator we can realize that this fact is absolutely
wrong: The population in Spain in the XVI century was 7 million of habitants. The
population of Spaniards that went to America in the XVI was
152.000 persons. So if nowadays the Population of Central and South America is 400
millions of persons you can tell the percentaje of spanish blood that latinos and
hispanics have in their blood. And this suppousing that Spaniards did in fact
marry those native americans (I think a little percentaje of those 152.000
already did it) or the people that were born out of the marriage from mixed
races. And we are talking about XVI century, the great majority of those people
that were born from mixed races, they would in fact marry also indians in the
following centuries. The conclusion is quite simple: 70-80% of Hispanics or
Latinos are pure indians, 10-15% have a tiny amount of european blood on them
(maybe 1/128, 1/256,...) and the rest are pure europeans (Spaniards, Italians,
Portuguese, Germans, Frenchs, English, Dutch, ..., who live mainly in Argentina
or Venezuela, and other countries aswell). Conclusion: The great majority (90%)
of hispanics that live in your country are pure indians. The rest maybe are
Indians with a tiny amount of european blood. Although they have our surnames
(Matínez, Pérez, Sánchez, García, and many others) this is because the
colonization labour to give Spanish names and surnames during Christhianization
to all the people. It´s almost the same when we see African-americans with
English surnames (Jackson, Smith, Iverson,...), and this doesn´t mean that their
ancestors are Englishmen from England. This is the same if We Spaniards see a
Jamaican or an Australian aborigin and tell him that he is an anglo just because
he speaks in English and because there was a time where Englishmen lived in
Jamaica or in Australia.

By the way, maybe you americans don´t realize that the first Europeans that lived and
settle in your country (before the US was the US) were Spaniards, the first city
founded in your country was founded by Spaniards (St. Augustine 1565
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/751.shtml), the first University founded
in America was founded by Spaniards (San Marcos), the first Christian church founded
in America was founded by Spaniards. I´m talking about Spaniards not Mexicans, and
there are lots of other contributions from Spain and Spaniards to the US and America
but would take a lot of pacience for me to look for them in the Internet.

There are also some other confusions and wrong ideas about the History of Spain.
These confusions have been promoted by the people that wants to distort reality to
suit their interests. For example, the histories that say that many Spaniards have
northafrican blood because muslims where living in Spain during centuries. What a
great distortion of reality!. In fact muslims habited (especially in Andalucia, the
south of Spain) our country from 711 to 1492 but as you can imagine in that centuries
where the presence of religion (Christian religion) was so important and trascendent
for the people living in Spain (there was no division between Religion and State), do
you think there were many Spaniards who marry and lived with those "infieles", with
Muslims?, do you think that many christians have had sons with muslims?. Nowadays in
Spain I don´t think the percentaje of marriages between a Catholic and a Muslim is
more than 1 in 500, do you think in that centuries where there was in fact such a
deep "racism" between religions that there were many childs born from mixed
marriages?. Do you think that people socially allowed that?. Do you think that
Catholic Church would have allowed it?.The truth is that muslims habited the main
cities in Spain but they were always segregated and created their own neighborhoods,
called "Barrios Judíos" and the interaction with them was mainly commercial. During
centuries Spaniards fought against muslims, and finally the ones who where not killed
were expulsed from Spain in 1492 (the fall of Granada), and the muslims that have had
converted to Christianism (called "conversos" or "moriscos") were also expulsed by
1609, (do you remember Spanish Inquisition?). Of course 100% of muslims weren´t
expulsed, and the ones who remained in Spain adopted Spanish names and surnames (The
XVI century was the time where many Spaniards started to have surnames because la
"Iglesia" wanted it to be so. Before this century people basically had a name and
their surname was the place where he was from "Juan de Toledo" for example). This is
one of the reasons why you can see a few Spaniards that look like Arabians or
NorthAfricans, and are really dark and look like "gypsies" (Flamenco dancers and
singers are 99% gypsies, for example Joaquín Cortés). Of course muslims will say that
muslims ruled Spain for many centuries and blacks will say that Spain was black
because many muslims have a mixed background of northafrican and black blood on them.
But this is completely false.

For those americans that still don´t know how Spaniards look like I will give you
these webpages, you can check them some time and see how spaniards look like
(http://www.elmundo.es/ or http://www.elpais.es) and I will also make you remember
the names of some Spaniards that you may know in the US: Placido Domingo, Julio
Iglesias, Javier Solana (former NATO General Secretary), Juan Antonio Samaranch
(former IOC President); Sergio García ("El Niño", Miguel Angel Jimenez (golfists),
Pau Gasol Saez (NBA player), Juan Carlos Ferrero (tennis player), Penelope Cruz, Luis
Rojas Marcos (President of the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation), and
some others. I don´t think there are more than
153.000 spaniards living in the US.

Spain is a great country, it´s the second most visited in the world and most of the
people are pleased after coming to see our country. Many americans have realized this
and even they have created webpages where they talk about their great experiences in
Spain. For example http://www.madridman.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi is a
message board where there are thousands of posts from americans that love Spain.
 
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Old Dec 22nd 2001, 11:00 pm   #2
Roy
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95% of the participant are not us citizen, so it will be better for you to ask CNN
and other network for some airtime and explain your problem. out of curiousity
,what's wrong with the latinos ? they are human just like you.aren't they? my friend
there are bad and good people everywhere on the planet including Spain.
 
Old Dec 24th 2001, 7:34 pm   #3
Javier Rodriguez
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Nothing wrong!. Just that we are not Latinos as americans think of (Latino race).
Spain is a latino country in Europe as Italy, Portugal, ... but when americans talk
about latino they are talking about Latino race, and this doesn´t apply to us. Do you
like if people consider you Chinesse?. Nothing wrong with that but just saying that
you are not chinese. Right?

sigigl@yahoo.com (roy)
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Old Dec 25th 2001, 4:42 pm   #4
Javier Rodriguez
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I didn´t say anything about people of European ancestry (you don´t have to get upset
because this doesn´t apply to you). I was just talking about the Hispanics (indians
or mixed) that go to the US and don´t want to respect their way of living and
language, .... I´ve made this statement because americans often are confused about
the term Hispanic and Latino and don´t realize that people from Spain are not
Hispanics or Latino; they are Spaniards.

lulodn1@webtv.net (Ldn1)
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Old Dec 25th 2001, 6:09 pm   #5
Manga Denabos
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Your claim is very ambiguous in my understanding. Also people from the Basque
(vascos) regions claim not to be Spaniards. People from Cataluña are Cataleanes and
not Spaniards, etc. etc. Now you are claiming diferences from hispanics or latinos,
stating about "And we are having a lot of problems with them" in Spain? I think you
are pretty xenophobic, like some spaniards I met, believing to be much better that
any "sudaca" (by the way, this is the way people from spain call south americans:
southamerican excrement, to put it lightly).
 
Old Dec 26th 2001, 6:34 pm   #6
Manuel Freitas
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Some of you people are totally missing the point, that the original poster was trying
to explain. Spaniard and Latino are not races. Just like American or African-American
are also not races. White, Black, etc, are races. I personally was born in Africa, my
parents were born in Africa, I'm Portuguese, I reside in the US but because I'm
caucasian, my race is white. There are Spaniards and Latinos of many races.

I don't think this person has anything against other races, but rather against
general ignorance. Personally I couldn't care less what race anyone is except, as
most of you very well know, race is factor in this country's immigration policy.

Just my $.02

- Manuel.
 
Old Dec 27th 2001, 7:11 am   #7
Robin
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Javier, I can only imagine that the very least educated and remote americans would
not know that Spain is in Europe. You seem very proud of Spain, as I am of America
but I think you've been talking to the wrong people if you are offended by their lack
of culture. I know that Spain is said to be a beautiful country rich in culture and
pride. Some day I will visit Spain and see for myself. I speak spanish and will enjoy
the culture and truly meet the people there. The people I know are intrigued by Spain
and see it as a great European country, not part of Latin America. Latin America has
a quite different culture and history that only partly includes Spain.

Javier Rodriguez wrote:

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Old Sep 13th 2002, 8:07 am   #8
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javier rodriguez, i am also from spain. what you wrote only shows your insecirity and your feelings of insecurity, in fact, what you say is a stereotype "wounded pride hispanic reaction", the "anglos" whom you seem to want to enlighten will draw the conclusion you do not want: "mmm... the people of spain do seem to have a problem of pride or insecurity, or both..."

hispanic is not a peyorative term it is a way to describe people who more or less share the spanish language and important parts of spanish culture. as matter of fact we use the term "mundo hispanico" including all spanish speaking countries.

it is quite silly you will feel somehow superior to people from spanish-speaking north and south america, what you show is that somehow you have managed to use part of your thinking to develop an inferirçority complex, that is why you are so sensitive about all this, you will feel better if you do some soul searching and find the answer to a simple question: "why does it make me personally so uncomfortable to be considered hispanic"

you may not like it but, for better and for worse, the people of spain and other spanish-speaking countries share values which are quite similar, it is obvious to anyone we in spain are culturally closer to argentina or méxico than to germany, for example

remember also that, for example, it is not spain but chile the spanish-speaking country with the longest democratic history.

by the way, say hi to michael jackson, he may help you become more "anglo" or whatever you believe will make you superior

smoke less pot and eat more burritos!

javier and others in spain who may think like you: relax, don´t worry, be happy
 
Old Sep 15th 2002, 7:01 am   #9
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[QUOTE][SIZE=1]Originally posted by Javier Rodriguez:
the "Day of La Raza"?). Of course the great majority of Hispanics when they go to the
US say that they are from Spain and that they have ancestors from Spain just to claim
that they have european blood. Even latino medias in the US try also to confuse and
pretend that Spaniards and LatinoAmericans are from the same culture, same blood, the
same race, when the only thing in common is the language. I have had some experiences
with this kind of situations when I was in the US. For example when my host family
tells me that there are some Spaniards that want to meet me and I go there and see
that they are Mexicans, I don´t have anything against them either but this reflects
the confusion of americans that think that Spaniards and Hispanics/Latinos is the
same thing.

In fact many americans think that all Hispanics/Latino have Spanish blood on them.


Oh great spaniard,

I am from Mexico City and i assure you i have absolutely no desire whatsoever to try to claim ancestry from Spain. I couldn't care less if flamenco dancers and singers are "99% gypsies". And maybe you could read a history book. Your noble ancestors came to my country, stole its resources, and raped and murdered its people. If i have any of this precious european blood it is because it was put there by force. Although you say people from spain never come into contact with north american hispanics, i can say with confidence that most of us couldn't care less. I know you are far too good for us mexicans, but just in case you are ever in mexico city, try not to wax poetic about the "problems" you have with "hispanics", it will not be received well.
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Old Oct 9th 2002, 4:01 am   #10
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I have read this thread with great interest. It is true that, in America, "Latino" and "Hispanic" are terms of racial designation in the way that "white," "black," and "Asian" are racial terms. Since my father is from South America, and my family name is Gonzalez, I am, by definition, Hispanic/Latino. This appellation does cause some confusion, however, since Americans use the term as a catch-all to describe people who speak Spanish and do not appear to be white, black, or Asian, but if you were to see me, you might lump me into the "white" category based on my physical appearance. I wish I had a dollar for each time someone said "Oh! You don't *look* Hispanic." This has been very annoying to me, since I have never thought my appearance to be particularly relevant.

In South America, my father's family is considered white, or, to use a term I like better, Ladino, which refers to a Latin American with predominately European ancestry (I first heard this term in Costa Rica). Sadly, if I point out that I have a predominately European ancestry, I am thought either arrogant and pretentious (for looking down on non-whites) or untruthful (for denying my true heritage). This is not a problem that I have brought on myself! It's just that so many people feel the need to comment on my name and my appearance.

It is a fact that many Spaniards do not look like some Latin Americans. While there certainly are people in Latin America who are predominately or completely European, the great majority of people in most Latin American countries have a distinctly non-European appearance. I have traveled in Guatemala, and a great many people there are diminutive in size with brown skin, straight black hair, aquiline noses, and epicanthal folds. That is, they are natives of the New World (specifically, Mayan). Some have Spanish names and speak Spanish. Some speak Mayan (this was a surprise to me, since Mayans are often said to have "disappeared" when their civilization fell from glory). In Mexico, too, there are large numbers of people who, for all intents and purposes, are natives. There are also people with some combination of Spanish and native ancestry. In any case, most Mexicans do not look like Spaniards.

Americans, in my experience, have a tendency to look down on non-industrialized nations and people from such nations. In America, being associated with such a nation (e.g. Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, etc) is not complimentary, and most Americans are aware of this prejudice. It is natural, I think, for Americans to assume that a Spaniard who points out that he is not from Latin America is being arrogant or racist, but I think it is logical that someone would want to educate others about his identity. If a person is Spanish, as opposed to Latin American, I don't see anything wrong with saying so.

I find it fascinating that Spaniards mercilessly subjugated an entire continent and destroyed most of its culture by force, only to find themselves confused with the same people they brutalized and enslaved. This may be fitting. However, let us not forget that subjugation through force is a common thread in human history. Unlike the Spanish, Americans exterminated and marginalized the natives of their own land to such an extent that there are barely enough American natives left to confuse with Americans of European ancestry.

PEDRO
 
Old Oct 14th 2002, 5:52 am   #11
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[QUOTE][SIZE=1]Originally posted by pedrogonzo:
I have read this thread with great interest. It is true that, in America, "Latino" and "Hispanic" are terms of racial designation in the way that "white," "black," and "Asian" are racial terms. Since my father is from South America, and my family name is Gonzalez, I am, by definition, Hispanic/Latino. This appellation does cause some confusion, however, since Americans use the term as a catch-all to describe people who speak Spanish and do not appear to be white, black, or Asian, but if you were to see me, you might lump me into the "white" category based on my physical appearance. I wish I had a dollar for each time someone said "Oh! You don't *look* Hispanic." This has been very annoying to me, since I have never thought my appearance to be particularly relevant.

In South America, my father's family is considered white, or, to use a term I like better, Ladino, which refers to a Latin American with predominately European ancestry (I first heard this term in Costa Rica). Sadly, if I point out that I have a predominately European ancestry, I am thought either arrogant and pretentious (for looking down on non-whites) or untruthful (for denying my true heritage). This is not a problem that I have brought on myself! It's just that so many people feel the need to comment on my name and my appearance.

It is a fact that many Spaniards do not look like some Latin Americans. While there certainly are people in Latin America who are predominately or completely European, the great majority of people in most Latin American countries have a distinctly non-European appearance. I have traveled in Guatemala, and a great many people there are diminutive in size with brown skin, straight black hair, aquiline noses, and epicanthal folds. That is, they are natives of the New World (specifically, Mayan). Some have Spanish names and speak Spanish. Some speak Mayan (this was a surprise to me, since Mayans are often said to have "disappeared" when their civilization fell from glory). In Mexico, too, there are large numbers of people who, for all intents and purposes, are natives. There are also people with some combination of Spanish and native ancestry. In any case, most Mexicans do not look like Spaniards.

Americans, in my experience, have a tendency to look down on non-industrialized nations and people from such nations. In America, being associated with such a nation (e.g. Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, etc) is not complimentary, and most Americans are aware of this prejudice. It is natural, I think, for Americans to assume that a Spaniard who points out that he is not from Latin America is being arrogant or racist, but I think it is logical that someone would want to educate others about his identity. If a person is Spanish, as opposed to Latin American, I don't see anything wrong with saying so.

I find it fascinating that Spaniards mercilessly subjugated an entire continent and destroyed most of its culture by force, only to find themselves confused with the same people they brutalized and enslaved. This may be fitting. However, let us not forget that subjugation through force is a common thread in human history. Unlike the Spanish, Americans exterminated and marginalized the natives of their own land to such an extent that there are barely enough American natives left to confuse with Americans of European ancestry."

My response: What a Spaniard comes in here and tries to make a point between the distinction of Spaniards and Latin Americans? You guys start to bash the Spanish culture? I am Spanish and not ashamed of it. Why??? The Spaniards like most Europeans did not do anything different that the Aztecs, Incas, Africans and etc did to others. Remember the Aztecs were also not known for being nice guys with folks they conquered either. Just the Spaniards and Europeans discovered TransAtlantic migration and were able to conquer the Meso-Americans before MEso-Americans did it to them. Trust me if the Aztecs discovered another part of the world before the Europeans, they would have done the same thing. They all were imperialistic with the World that they were aware of, regardless if it is African, Native-American, European, Asian and so on.
Now I am not here to say one culture is better another. They all have faults. I know it is fun and Political Correct to start bashing Europe, and Europe does at times deserve it, but to go on a huge speech or essay on how Europeans were always pure evil and the NAtive cultures were always "Innocent and pure" loses crediblity and is not historically accurate. You are becoming no better than the folks who you claim are arrogant and intolerable.
Now with the Hispanic Label, The Spanish can be considered Hispanic because the term denotes Americans who share a common bond with a Spanish-Speaking country. There are some Spaniards who are arrogant and take slight to be associated with Latin-Americans, but the truth is Latin-Americans are also different from one another. A Mexican is extremely different than a Argentine, and trust me they would not like to be pegged into a homogenous group that does not recognize its diversity. Therefore not only are Spaniards different than a Columbian so is a Peruvian from a Costa Rican. Trust me the Census Bureau folks are aware that Spain is in Europe, only the least educated of Americans would not know that. It is a umbrella term for all Americans of Spanish-speaking backgrounds regardless of location of the spanish speaking country.
 
Old Oct 14th 2002, 8:03 am   #12
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When the census for example categorizes people from latin/spanish speaking countries or of that ancestry or origin nativity etc they are placed in the Hispanic or Latino category however when they breakdown the ethnicities they are separated in there own respective.

For example here's a sample from New York City's census:

Mexican: 343,137
Puerto Rican: 1,325,778
Cuban: 134,973
Dominican: 551,538
Costa Rican: 19,600
Guatemalan: 49,360
Honduran: 50,106
Nicaraguan: 11,560
Panamanian: 21,642
Salvadoran: 97,243
Other Central American: 13,393
Argentinean: 22,116
Bolivian: 5,989
Chilean: 15,119
Colombian: 172,274
Ecuadorian: 173,966
Paraguayan: 3,530
Peruvian: 76,093
Uruguayan: 7,609
Venezuelan: 12,767
Other South American: 15,451
Spaniard: 21,787
Spanish: 70,429
Spanish American: 8,490
All other Hispanic or Latino: 628,188

Maybe on a one to one basis people will call people who speak Spanish "Hispanic or Latino" etc., However even thru the census there is an understanding that people from Espana for example choose Caucasian or White as there race too.
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Old Oct 15th 2002, 6:23 am   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Javier Rodriguez:
This statement is for those americans (I know that there are still many of them) that
still think that Spain must be somewhere in SouthAmerica and that Spaniards are like
those hispanics/latinos that cross your borders to get into your country. I have to
write this because I get upset every time I go to learn English to the US and there
is always someone that asks me: "How can you be latino and white?". What???.
Latino???. Hispanic???. Me???. It´s incredible the lack of knowing that still have
some americans (an unbelievable number of them). Spaniards are Europeans, white,
caucasians and We have nothing to be with latinos and Hispanics (exceptuating the
language). In fact we are not latinos as you americans think of. When you americans
talk about latinos you are talking about a race not a culture (you can tell this
because in the US census there is a place where it says: White, Blacks, Latinos,..,
so latinos for you is a race). In this case we are not latinos because we are
caucasians. But if you talk about latino countries yes you are talking about Spain,
Italy, Portugal, Greece, ... This would be correct. We are not either Hispanics
because this term means "derivated from Hispania, Spain" but doesn´t relate to the
people living in Spain, it relates to the countries that have been related to Spain,
but not Spaniards and Spain.

So whenever you see a Spaniard in the US don´t call him latino or hispanic because
that is absolutely not correct (and some of them will get a little upset). In fact
the great majority of Spaniards haven´t meet a latino or a Hispanic ever although in
the last 3 or 4 years We are experiencing a massive inmigration from latinoamerican
countries to Spain (especially Colombians and Ecuatorians) so nowadays We can say
that there is some kind of interaction with them (in any case any Spaniard can
distinguish a latino from a Spaniard in the street 100 meters far away). And we are
having a lot of problems with them (there are 60 gangs of Colombians in Spain
stealing and killing because drugs and many other problems). Main cities of Spain
(Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla, and many others) have hundred of thousands of
people from Latinoamerican countries (indians), north africans (muslims) and so, so
don´t think that if you come to Spain and see the people in the airport or the subway
that these people are Spaniards because lots of them are not. Maybe you americans
think that Spaniards and Latinos have a lot of things in common, that We have a lot
of interaction, and We make parties and get together and are happy whenever we see a
hispanic in the street. That is also false. The only interaction that we have with
them is a reunion of Presidents of Iberoamerican (also Portugal and Brasil) countries
once a year (in fact those presidents are descendents from Europeans and have nothing
to do with Latino race), and also whenever We invest in their countries or also in
the Day of Hispanity (in fact this is a conmemoration that comes from Spain, each
12th October to conmemorate the American Discover, although many mexicans say it´s
the "Day of La Raza"?). Of course the great majority of Hispanics when they go to the
US say that they are from Spain and that they have ancestors from Spain just to claim
that they have european blood. Even latino medias in the US try also to confuse and
pretend that Spaniards and LatinoAmericans are from the same culture, same blood, the
same race, when the only thing in common is the language. I have had some experiences
with this kind of situations when I was in the US. For example when my host family
tells me that there are some Spaniards that want to meet me and I go there and see
that they are Mexicans, I don´t have anything against them either but this reflects
the confusion of americans that think that Spaniards and Hispanics/Latinos is the
same thing.

In fact many americans think that all Hispanics/Latino have Spanish blood on them.
This is incredible!, there are a lot of reasons I can tell you to prove that this is
not right but just with a calculator we can realize that this fact is absolutely
wrong: The population in Spain in the XVI century was 7 million of habitants. The
population of Spaniards that went to America in the XVI was
152.000 persons. So if nowadays the Population of Central and South America is 400
millions of persons you can tell the percentaje of spanish blood that latinos and
hispanics have in their blood. And this suppousing that Spaniards did in fact
marry those native americans (I think a little percentaje of those 152.000
already did it) or the people that were born out of the marriage from mixed
races. And we are talking about XVI century, the great majority of those people
that were born from mixed races, they would in fact marry also indians in the
following centuries. The conclusion is quite simple: 70-80% of Hispanics or
Latinos are pure indians, 10-15% have a tiny amount of european blood on them
(maybe 1/128, 1/256,...) and the rest are pure europeans (Spaniards, Italians,
Portuguese, Germans, Frenchs, English, Dutch, ..., who live mainly in Argentina
or Venezuela, and other countries aswell). Conclusion: The great majority (90%)
of hispanics that live in your country are pure indians. The rest maybe are
Indians with a tiny amount of european blood. Although they have our surnames
(Matínez, Pérez, Sánchez, García, and many others) this is because the
colonization labour to give Spanish names and surnames during Christhianization
to all the people. It´s almost the same when we see African-americans with
English surnames (Jackson, Smith, Iverson,...), and this doesn´t mean that their
ancestors are Englishmen from England. This is the same if We Spaniards see a
Jamaican or an Australian aborigin and tell him that he is an anglo just because
he speaks in English and because there was a time where Englishmen lived in
Jamaica or in Australia.

By the way, maybe you americans don´t realize that the first Europeans that lived and
settle in your country (before the US was the US) were Spaniards, the first city
founded in your country was founded by Spaniards (St. Augustine 1565
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/751.shtml), the first University founded
in America was founded by Spaniards (San Marcos), the first Christian church founded
in America was founded by Spaniards. I´m talking about Spaniards not Mexicans, and
there are lots of other contributions from Spain and Spaniards to the US and America
but would take a lot of pacience for me to look for them in the Internet.

There are also some other confusions and wrong ideas about the History of Spain.
These confusions have been promoted by the people that wants to distort reality to
suit their interests. For example, the histories that say that many Spaniards have
northafrican blood because muslims where living in Spain during centuries. What a
great distortion of reality!. In fact muslims habited (especially in Andalucia, the
south of Spain) our country from 711 to 1492 but as you can imagine in that centuries
where the presence of religion (Christian religion) was so important and trascendent
for the people living in Spain (there was no division between Religion and State), do
you think there were many Spaniards who marry and lived with those "infieles", with
Muslims?, do you think that many christians have had sons with muslims?. Nowadays in
Spain I don´t think the percentaje of marriages between a Catholic and a Muslim is
more than 1 in 500, do you think in that centuries where there was in fact such a
deep "racism" between religions that there were many childs born from mixed
marriages?. Do you think that people socially allowed that?. Do you think that
Catholic Church would have allowed it?.The truth is that muslims habited the main
cities in Spain but they were always segregated and created their own neighborhoods,
called "Barrios Judíos" and the interaction with them was mainly commercial. During
centuries Spaniards fought against muslims, and finally the ones who where not killed
were expulsed from Spain in 1492 (the fall of Granada), and the muslims that have had
converted to Christianism (called "conversos" or "moriscos") were also expulsed by
1609, (do you remember Spanish Inquisition?). Of course 100% of muslims weren´t
expulsed, and the ones who remained in Spain adopted Spanish names and surnames (The
XVI century was the time where many Spaniards started to have surnames because la
"Iglesia" wanted it to be so. Before this century people basically had a name and
their surname was the place where he was from "Juan de Toledo" for example). This is
one of the reasons why you can see a few Spaniards that look like Arabians or
NorthAfricans, and are really dark and look like "gypsies" (Flamenco dancers and
singers are 99% gypsies, for example Joaquín Cortés). Of course muslims will say that
muslims ruled Spain for many centuries and blacks will say that Spain was black
because many muslims have a mixed background of northafrican and black blood on them.
But this is completely false.

For those americans that still don´t know how Spaniards look like I will give you
these webpages, you can check them some time and see how spaniards look like
(http://www.elmundo.es/ or http://www.elpais.es) and I will also make you remember
the names of some Spaniards that you may know in the US: Placido Domingo, Julio
Iglesias, Javier Solana (former NATO General Secretary), Juan Antonio Samaranch
(former IOC President); Sergio García ("El Niño", Miguel Angel Jimenez (golfists),
Pau Gasol Saez (NBA player), Juan Carlos Ferrero (tennis player), Penelope Cruz, Luis
Rojas Marcos (President of the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation), and
some others. I don´t think there are more than
153.000 spaniards living in the US.

Spain is a great country, it´s the second most visited in the world and most of the
people are pleased after coming to see our country. Many americans have realized this
and even they have created webpages where they talk about their great experiences in
Spain. For example http://www.madridman.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi is a
message board where there are thousands of posts from americans that love Spain.
 
Old Oct 15th 2002, 6:28 am   #14
tica
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tica:
[ The history of Latinos is the history of the conflict of languages-English and Spanish-and of cultures-anglo-saxon and Hispanic. The term Hispanic is used inside the United States to name Latinos, and it describes the cultures that developed as a result of Spanish exploration, in an after1492, when Christopher Columbus first set foot in the Bahamas and Central America. So, the Hispanic term describes the origin and influence from Spain over the Latin American countries, however, most people in Latin America probably would not like to talk about that because in so many Latin American countries the Spaniards did to much damage to the local culture.

Today, the term Hispanic is used to include all kind of persons from Spanish origin, for some people in the United States, Hispanic is a more inclusive term because it does not excludes people, who are from Spain or belong to countries whose language is not Spanish such as Brazil, Haiti, etc.; Hispanic is also a category used by the U.S. National Bureau of Census to refer to the different groups of Latinos living in the United States. Also, the National Institutes of Health prefers to use the term Hispanic origin more often than the Latino term. From this perspective the term Hispanic is widely used to write technical reports, and grants proposals; in other words, Hispanic is used as a more academic/tecnical term. On the other hand, Latino is probably the most popular term used by Non-profit organizations, public health and medical professionals, newspapers, and popular magazines, to describe spanish-speaking people living in the United States.

However, those Latinos living in Latin America are known as Latinoamericanos or Latin Americans. Another way to call Latinoamericanos is by the name of their country of origin, for example Mexican from Mexico, Cuban from Cuba, etc. But if a person moved to live in the United States, this person is called Latino, not Latinoamericano. Again, all of these may the "labeling" more confuse. However, even the terms Latino or Hispanic are very broad terms that is because Latinos are a group made of many subgroups that may account for around 70 different variations depending on their race, gender, language, country of origin, etc. For example just in a race classification Latinos could be could be White, Mestizo (the mix of indian and White), Black or Garifuna Latinos, indians, ladinos, creoles, mulatos, miskitos Latinos, and so on. That may help to understand why it is difficult to identify Latinos just for their appearance, they can look like a somebody else. However, even with this diversity, the 2000 U.S. Census counted a total of 35.5 million of Latinos in the country, but that is withouth the undocummented or indocumentados. By the year 2025 Latinos will number more than 50 million, the largest minority in the United States, this demographic change will definitely have an impact in the way the American society see the Latino population, they will have a great influence on the language dominance, votes and politics, and other societal changes.


Tips Use the term Hispanic in formal writing because it is more accepted by governmental institutions including the National Institutes of Health.
Use Latino for a more informal communication, however, with the pass of time, anybody in the government or any other type of organization will be familiar with this term.
If you are unsure about what term to use, you could use both, "Hispanic/Latino".
 
Old Nov 22nd 2002, 9:11 pm   #15
oliveoiltrees
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Default Upset Spaniards

I can see why spaniards are upset about the Hispanic/Latino definition in the USA. it is not about racism or arrogance that the spaniards are talking about. it is about IDENTITY , UNIQUENESS and PRIDE. This is very simple to understand. like a German is from Germany, French are from France, etc... Spaniards are from spain, only spain. Spaniards are very Unique people. Spaniards way of life is very different from any other country in the world. This is why ALL SPANIARDS are angry at this. If there was a country that is a little similar to spanish people is Italians.

The USA brain washed it's people and categorized all spanish speaking people into one race, one lifestyle, all the same. TV, Media all these categorize spain the same as South Americans. It seems that Mexicans, and all other south american nations don't mind this categorization. (if they did mind they would be complaining to the US Census program), I doubt any Mexican cares to complaint.

On the other hand Spaniards do mind and the very few spaniards living in the USA are complaining. Again, it is not racism or arrogance, it is simply a person's personal uniqueness and pride which is very normal. Spaniards are very proud of their history, country and people. Spanish people don't want to put anybody down, they just don't want their IDENTITY taken away. Spain is a very old country, so old it appears in Bible text as already a nation.

This is why Spaniards are angry. Spain is Spain.

P.S. This is what spain gets for finding and conquering this continent 500 years ago.
 
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