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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 1:32 pm   #16
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by BritishGuy36 View Post
Changing passports is irrelevant, obviously activity on any old passport is linked to the new number. Otherwise, all anyone would need to do is get a new passport and avoid problems related to any previous activity.
Now if it was the Swiss government, I'd agree. I suspect it will depend on whether in 2003, the US had machine readable equipment for passports and VWPs for all POEs, the central server processing was up and running, and the UK passport as well as the VWPs were machine readable at that time. If that was the case, then she will probably be caught.

However, if that was not the case, it is unlikely that all the information for every person entering and leaving the US would have been entered into a centralized database. Even if some POEs had the equipment but other POEs did not and the information was not manually entered for the POEs that did not have the equipment, than none of the information collected at that time could be relied on to be accurate.
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 1:41 pm   #17
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Border Control won't be interested in her claims of ties to the UK or promises of not abusing the system. She has previously demonstrated her willingness to abuse the system and that is all they will see - her age or disposition at the time is not relevant, as far as they are concerned.

I don't know of any such "stories" where people have got away with this, I would be dubious about these tales at best and as Morocco says there are no such tales on this forum.
C'mon! I'm not convinced of the perfection of CBP.
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 1:42 pm   #18
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by uk_traveller View Post
Look, I can't speak for her, but I know she's not out to 'abuse the system', just to try and see if she gets back in
As long as she knows that if she doesn't get in she'll have wasted thousands of dollars, not to mention the unpleasant experience of being detained by immigration.

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And again, I've heard from people who've been in such a situation who have successfully attained entry to the States, but nobody who's preaching the rules who seems to be able to claim to have been deported...
I have heard of no one who was able to "slip through" through US immigration while subject to a ban. On the other hand there are several stories of people who have been denied entry under the VWP for very old overstays, even when they weren't subject to a ban. See here and here for what happened to Irish actor Ruaidhri Conroy. He tried to enter the US under the VWP in 2006 after a previous overstay in 1998. He was denied entry and placed in a holding cell for 22 hours before being put on a flight back to Ireland. He had overstayed by only two days and didn't have a ban.

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the difference is experience versus the soapbox.
Again - whose experience?
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 1:58 pm   #19
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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I have heard of no one who was able to "slip through" through US immigration while subject to a ban.
But you're not banned until you attempt to re-enter, and only then if everything's working properly. As for 'what stories', type the right words into google and read up. If for whatever reason they don't detect you, you're not banned, pure and simple. How's that 'abusing the system'? It's plainly not.

I've advised her to go for it, but be aware it has a good chance of not working, meaning she won't get in and will be sent straight home. That said, I'm confident her leaving on a cancelled passport and coming back in on a new one, will put her in good stead.

I'll certainly report back on what happened, just for the record.
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 1:59 pm   #20
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

Some Facts then..

This was post 9-11 so her entry/exit change of passport etc will be logged and she will be denied. You will 99% find I suspect that overstayers got away with it as pre-9-11 overstays where "Didn't hand I-94" in sometimes worked. Now, all airlines report all passengers leaving/arriving into the USA. The POE / secondary processing can access those lists for sure.

The POE agent, since the TB scare from Candaa has NO discretion. As I have reported before, my 20 year old son, a US Citizen of 5 years is called for secondary processing on EVERY re-entry to the USA simply because they have no record that he returned his green card ((they lost his green card). Sure POE is apologetic and frustrated they have to do this and as a USC myself, when I travel with my son, I now show them how pissed I am BUT they just shrug, as frustrated as I they can't bend the rules even for this...

The POE has NO discretion. All "errors"/"Anomalies"/"orange flags" are sent to secondary processing.

She will be sent back so get a cheap flight and I hope she likes Airline food.
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:03 pm   #21
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

Pretty much easier to fill in the Esta form and see what it says ..

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/esta/
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:04 pm   #22
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by uk_traveller View Post
I know she's not out to 'abuse the system'...
Considering that she has abused the system once already, this is a pretty naive comment!


Quote:
... because a ten year ban for somebody who overstayed as a young adult and clearly poses no risk...
She has already disregarded US immigration law by overstaying once. I suggest she *is* a risk... since she clearly has no respect for the laws of a foreign country.


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... is absurdly draconian.
This is exactly what the US immigration is.

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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:14 pm   #23
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by uk_traveller View Post
But you're not banned until you attempt to re-enter...
Another wrong assumption. The ban kicks in the moment you leave the US. You only find out about it when you attempt to re-enter. If, as in your friend's case, there is no record of having left, USCIS can make any rationalization at all about when exactly she left... it's their sandbox after all. The onus is on your friend to prove when she left, not on USCIS to demonstrate she didn't.

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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:45 pm   #24
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by uk_traveller View Post
BritishGuy36, How do you account for the tales of people who have overstayed and got in at a later point, then? Are they all lying in some kind of grand conspiracy against 'The System'? Of course not. The fact is that it's not a perfect system and if you do happen to have some abnormalities in your situation, there's a chance you'll 'slip through'.

Look, I can't speak for her, but I know she's not out to 'abuse the system', just to try and see if she gets back in, because a ten year ban for somebody who overstayed as a young adult and clearly poses no risk, plus can provide substantial evidence of her ties and intent to return to the UK, is absurdly draconian.
Strikes me that despite requesting a "more realistic response that I can pass on" what you really wanted was agreement with your already advised course of action "I advised her to go and hope for the best"

Once her passport is scanned the POE will have available to them previous entries and exits ( yes new passport or not all the information from her old one will have been 'transfered' over) So what they are going to see is an entry on the VWP 5 years ago and no exit. She will be taken straight to secondary for questioning. Once in secondary her prior overstay will be established. There is / will be NO discretionary judgment, the regulations are quite clear so in that respect she could carry with her a personal letter from the Queen vouching for her return and it wouldn't matter a fiddlers pluck - she will NOT be allowed to enter and will be detained until arrangements are made for her removal and return flight back to the UK.

Bottom line if your friend wants to spend xxx amount of pounds on a flight out here to be sent back on the next available flight ( btw, most airlines carry a standard 'any passenger denied entry by immigration or other authority all repatriation costs are to be born by the passenger' clause so she will have the extra cost of the flight back home to pay for as well) then just tell her to come right along! If that's the chance she wants to take then so be it - I'm sure after numerous hours in secondary, the loss of all that money and probably waving goodbye to any chance of visiting the USA in the foreseeable future - she will probably appreciate the advice you gave her
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:47 pm   #25
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
However, if that was not the case, it is unlikely that all the information for every person entering and leaving the US would have been entered into a centralized database. Even if some POEs had the equipment but other POEs did not and the information was not manually entered for the POEs that did not have the equipment, than none of the information collected at that time could be relied on to be accurate.
Everyone leaving the US by air is supposed to be tracked via the I-94 or I94W that is handed to the airline before departure. The airlines forward the forms to a USCIS location somewhere where they are supposed to be entered into a database. As you can imagine this is not a perfect system however I believe that after 9-11 there were significant efforts made to improve it over the years.

Regarding the OP's question, this is one of those 'do you feel lucky' dilemnas. The fact is that USCIS and CBP have an imperfect record keeping system, so your friend may get lucky. On the other hand, bear in mind if she travels on the Visa Waiver scheme she must sign a form (ie make a statement ) that she has not violated a previous visa. In other words she must actually tell a lie on the form in order to be admitted. If this lie is found out it could result in a lifetime ban. Also, if she is detained at POE as a consequence of this they will most likely lock her up in a cell until she can get a flight home, which will also cost her a large amount of money. Does she really want to go through that experience ?
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:54 pm   #26
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

Does anyone really believe that there is a 'friend'?
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:54 pm   #27
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Does anyone really believe that there is a 'friend'?
Does anyone care ...
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:56 pm   #28
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Does anyone care ...
I don't know... I like these kind of threads, they brighten up my very dull life.
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 2:58 pm   #29
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

Well thanks for this. I was forewarned of the disproportionately hostile nature of some who like to pretend to be judge and jury on BritishExpats before I posted here, but considering that this has been a helpful exercise. Thanks again.

PS If she does go across, I'll let you know what happened. I hope she proves some of you wrong!
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Old Sep 3rd 2008, 3:00 pm   #30
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Default Re: Re-Entry Despite Visa Waiver Overstay Years Ago?

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Well thanks for this. I was forewarned of the disproportionately hostile nature of some who like to pretend to be judge and jury on BritishExpats before I posted here, but considering that this has been a helpful exercise. Thanks again.

PS If she does go across, I'll let you know what happened. I hope she proves some of you wrong!
try the ESTA
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