Question regarding US citizenship
Dec 29th 2005, 5:35 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Question regarding US citizenship
Greetings,
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Dec 29th 2005, 2:24 pm
#2
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 642
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??
Originally Posted by Kiahlin
Greetings,
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Dec 29th 2005, 2:38 pm
#3
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,266
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Hi:
When boiled down to everything, your question is a short one of Canadian law and procedures.
As far as the United States is concerned, the passport IS bona fide evidence of US citizenship. Until about 25 years ago, the passport was NOT definitive evidence of citizenship, but was just a travel document. However, under UNITED STATES law, it is such evidence.
However, if the Canadian government won't accept the US passport, then you CAN file an "N-600" with US Citizenship & Immigraton Services for issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship. This is issued to US citizens who did not naturalize in their own right -- my mother was issued one because she had "derivative naturalization" and you can get one as having "derivative citizenship."
When boiled down to everything, your question is a short one of Canadian law and procedures.
As far as the United States is concerned, the passport IS bona fide evidence of US citizenship. Until about 25 years ago, the passport was NOT definitive evidence of citizenship, but was just a travel document. However, under UNITED STATES law, it is such evidence.
However, if the Canadian government won't accept the US passport, then you CAN file an "N-600" with US Citizenship & Immigraton Services for issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship. This is issued to US citizens who did not naturalize in their own right -- my mother was issued one because she had "derivative naturalization" and you can get one as having "derivative citizenship."
Dec 29th 2005, 11:02 pm
#4
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Originally Posted by Kiahlin
Greetings,
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
you will think of it.
First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
latter half of 1977 in the US).
When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
embassy/consulate.
Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
(and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
application package.
But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose
sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the
Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US
Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do
not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents
were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there
is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled,
"Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate,
and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this
requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in
the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about
a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount
of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
(school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
--Kiahlin
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
1. On the basis of the information available, this person is a Canadian citizen.
2. Using the table on Joe Grasmick's site, it seems that this person (born between 1952 and 1986) automatically acquired US citizenship at birth, due to having two US citizen parents who had previously resided in the US.
http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM
3. "I was required to take a US oath to receive the passport."
Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?
Dec 31st 2005, 12:57 am
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
> > Greetings,
> > Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any
> > of
> > you will think of it.
> > First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> > however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a
> > variety
> > of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father
> > having
> > a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> > Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not
> > there
> > in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> > They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born
> > in
> > July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> > which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my
> > father
> > had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> > going back to college for his master's and subsequently his
> > doctorate.
> > I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> > latter half of 1977 in the US).
> > When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal
> > resident
> > status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> > become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with
> > a
> > US
> > embassy/consulate.
> > Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know
> > what
> > documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> > didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first
> > visit
> > to
> > the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I
> > had
> > to
> > go through the process of receiving a US social security number in
> > order
> > to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> > parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> > passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent
> > in,
> > and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> > I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a
> > US
> > passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> > number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my
> > passport
> > to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport
> > issuing
> > agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how
> > long
> > I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay
> > US
> > taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as
> > well.
> > After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that
> > this
> > meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> > Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> > (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have
> > taken
> > pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians"
> > on
> > the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> > probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because
> > of
> > changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of
> > this
> > year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off
> > for
> > my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> > consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> > brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> > apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> > application package.
> > But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT
> > country(ies)
> > of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a
> > loose
> > sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package
> > the
> > Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
> > acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card,
> > US
> > Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
> > parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
> > either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
> > Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also
> > do
> > not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my
> > parents
> > were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is
> > Canadian.
> > Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
> > considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now,
> > there
> > is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
> > 'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package,
> > entitled,
> > "Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
> > category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship
> > certificate,
> > and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
> > status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists
> > this
> > requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed
> > the
> > Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
> > I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my
> > 'status
> > in
> > the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include
> > 'social
> > security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can
> > my
> > birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after
> > the
> > fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore
> > the
> > 'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to
> > include,
> > but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
> > I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
> > parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums
> > about
> > a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
> > parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent
> > some
> > time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
> > requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though,
> > as
> > my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
> > father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
> > US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after
> > coming
> > to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt.
> > So
> > I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required
> > amount
> > of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
> > (school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
> > certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
> > document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
> > regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
> > I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing.
> > But
> > thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your
> > time!
> > --Kiahlin
> > --
> > Posted via http://expatforums.com
> 1. On the basis of the information available, this person is a
> Canadian citizen.
> 2. Using the table on Joe Grasmick's site, it seems that this person
> (born between 1952 and 1986) automatically acquired US citizenship
> at
> birth, due to having two US citizen parents who had previously
> resided
> in the US.
> http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM
> 2. "I was required to take a US oath to receive the passport."
> Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to
> request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?
> --
> This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any
> jurisdiction
Thanks very much to everyone for the responses. I do apologize for
the length of my initial post -- I have a very bad habit of doing that
when first explaining a situation. If there is any New Year's
resolution list for me, trying to be more brief should be near the top
of that list.
In any case, you've given me some informative and interesting responses.
I actually did receive a response back from the Canadian consulate today
(via email), and the lady I've been "speaking" to said that I should
just send in my US passport as 'proof of US status' along with a letter
explaining why I can't send one of the other listed documents, instead.
I must say, I am a bit loathe to send in my passport, and not only
because I wouldn't have it for six to ten months (that's the time period
stated in the docs sent to me for the processing of a first-time
Canadian citizenship certificate app!), but also because the loose-sheet
list of docs to send in specifically states that a US passport is NOT
official 'proof of status' in the US. It looks like the US recognizes
it as such, with your responses, but not Canada.
Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks
like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a
letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm
surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But
the passport thing surprises me just as much.
Regarding this question from Jaj:
"Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to
request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?"
That's a very good question. I've wondered about that myself. In fact,
when I had to take that oath, no one else was required to do so in my
group (of a few various family members who were either renewing a
passport or getting one for the first time, and those family members
were all born in the US). I remember that I balked a bit at having to
take the oath, which infuriated my family (I think for practical
reasons), and I was told (by the agency) that I had to do so, or would
not be issued a passport.
Thanks again for everyone's time and responses; it's definitely helped
answer a few questions, and yet has brought up some other questions (the
oath thing in particular).
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
> > Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any
> > of
> > you will think of it.
> > First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> > however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a
> > variety
> > of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father
> > having
> > a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> > Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not
> > there
> > in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> > They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born
> > in
> > July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> > which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my
> > father
> > had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> > going back to college for his master's and subsequently his
> > doctorate.
> > I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> > latter half of 1977 in the US).
> > When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal
> > resident
> > status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> > become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with
> > a
> > US
> > embassy/consulate.
> > Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know
> > what
> > documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> > didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first
> > visit
> > to
> > the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I
> > had
> > to
> > go through the process of receiving a US social security number in
> > order
> > to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> > parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> > passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent
> > in,
> > and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> > I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a
> > US
> > passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> > number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my
> > passport
> > to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport
> > issuing
> > agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how
> > long
> > I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay
> > US
> > taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as
> > well.
> > After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that
> > this
> > meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> > Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> > (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have
> > taken
> > pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians"
> > on
> > the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> > probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because
> > of
> > changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of
> > this
> > year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off
> > for
> > my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> > consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> > brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> > apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> > application package.
> > But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT
> > country(ies)
> > of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a
> > loose
> > sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package
> > the
> > Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
> > acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card,
> > US
> > Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
> > parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
> > either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
> > Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also
> > do
> > not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my
> > parents
> > were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is
> > Canadian.
> > Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
> > considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now,
> > there
> > is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
> > 'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package,
> > entitled,
> > "Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
> > category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship
> > certificate,
> > and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
> > status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists
> > this
> > requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed
> > the
> > Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
> > I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my
> > 'status
> > in
> > the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include
> > 'social
> > security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can
> > my
> > birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after
> > the
> > fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore
> > the
> > 'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to
> > include,
> > but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
> > I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
> > parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums
> > about
> > a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
> > parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent
> > some
> > time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
> > requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though,
> > as
> > my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
> > father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
> > US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after
> > coming
> > to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt.
> > So
> > I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required
> > amount
> > of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
> > (school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
> > certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
> > document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
> > regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
> > I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing.
> > But
> > thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your
> > time!
> > --Kiahlin
> > --
> > Posted via http://expatforums.com
> 1. On the basis of the information available, this person is a
> Canadian citizen.
> 2. Using the table on Joe Grasmick's site, it seems that this person
> (born between 1952 and 1986) automatically acquired US citizenship
> at
> birth, due to having two US citizen parents who had previously
> resided
> in the US.
> http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM
> 2. "I was required to take a US oath to receive the passport."
> Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to
> request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?
> --
> This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any
> jurisdiction
Thanks very much to everyone for the responses. I do apologize for
the length of my initial post -- I have a very bad habit of doing that
when first explaining a situation. If there is any New Year's
resolution list for me, trying to be more brief should be near the top
of that list.
In any case, you've given me some informative and interesting responses.
I actually did receive a response back from the Canadian consulate today
(via email), and the lady I've been "speaking" to said that I should
just send in my US passport as 'proof of US status' along with a letter
explaining why I can't send one of the other listed documents, instead.
I must say, I am a bit loathe to send in my passport, and not only
because I wouldn't have it for six to ten months (that's the time period
stated in the docs sent to me for the processing of a first-time
Canadian citizenship certificate app!), but also because the loose-sheet
list of docs to send in specifically states that a US passport is NOT
official 'proof of status' in the US. It looks like the US recognizes
it as such, with your responses, but not Canada.
Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks
like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a
letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm
surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But
the passport thing surprises me just as much.
Regarding this question from Jaj:
"Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to
request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?"
That's a very good question. I've wondered about that myself. In fact,
when I had to take that oath, no one else was required to do so in my
group (of a few various family members who were either renewing a
passport or getting one for the first time, and those family members
were all born in the US). I remember that I balked a bit at having to
take the oath, which infuriated my family (I think for practical
reasons), and I was told (by the agency) that I had to do so, or would
not be issued a passport.
Thanks again for everyone's time and responses; it's definitely helped
answer a few questions, and yet has brought up some other questions (the
oath thing in particular).
--
Posted via http://expatforums.com
Dec 31st 2005, 3:26 pm
#6
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Originally Posted by Kiahlin
Regarding this question from Jaj:
"Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to
request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?"
That's a very good question. I've wondered about that myself. In fact,
when I had to take that oath, no one else was required to do so in my
group (of a few various family members who were either renewing a
passport or getting one for the first time, and those family members
were all born in the US). I remember that I balked a bit at having to
take the oath, which infuriated my family (I think for practical
reasons), and I was told (by the agency) that I had to do so, or would
not be issued a passport.
It seems that the US Passport Service (or certain offices) may have had its own policy outside the law for a time.
Dec 31st 2005, 4:07 pm
#7
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,266
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Originally Posted by Kiahlin
Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks
like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a
letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm
surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But
the passport thing surprises me just as much.
http://expatforums.com
You misunderstand my post somewhat -- the N-600 is NOT for the Canadians -- it is for the UNITED STATES Citizenship & Immigration Services -- so they can issue a "Certificate of Citizenship" which looks IDENTICAL to a certificate of naturalization. [My mother was issued one].
I am amused by the common misconception that instructions from government are considered to be valid. At least in the United States, an applicant can NOT rely on instructions which are contrary to law -- the Supreme Court has said so.
BTW, do the Candians have a procedure for you to produce a COPY of your passport and have a Consular Officer certify they have examined the original?
Jan 1st 2006, 6:03 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
[I'm not familiar with the name "Kiahlin", so please forgive me
if my guess that Kiahlin is male turns out to be wrong.]
As best I can tell from Kiahlin's story, he is almost certainly
a citizen (by birth) of both the US and Canada.
(1) He was born with Canadian citizenship because he was born in
Canada (in 1972), to parents who were not foreign diplomats.
(2) He was also born with US citizenship because, although he was
born outside the US, both of his parents were US citizens,
and at least one (actually, in this case, both) of his
parents had resided in the US for some period of time prior
to Kiahlin's birth in Canada.
Note that, in the case where both parents of a non-US-born
child are US citizens, the child is automatically a US
citizen as long as =either= parent "had a residence" in
the US for =any= amount of time prior to the child's birth.
My experience has been that US consulates will ask for, and
normally accept, a parent's having been physically present
in the US for at least one full year as satisfying this
requirement -- but this is =not= what the law actually says.
It also seems pretty clear to me that Kiahlin never lost either
citizenship and still has both citizenships.
(1) Since he was born in Canada to parents who were not, and
never became, Canadian citizens, the only way he could lose
Canadian citizenship would be if he were to make a formal
renunciation of his Canadian citizenship, submitted to
Canadian officials, on or after his 18th birthday. It
doesn't appear he ever did any such thing.
Note that even if the oath Kiahlin was (perhaps illegally)
required by US officials to take in order to get a US pass-
port in 1987 was the standard US naturalization oath --
which contains a blanket statement disavowing all other
allegiances -- this would not have been recognized under
Canadian law as having any legal effect on Kiahlin's Cana-
dian citizenship. Under Canada's current (1977) citizenship
law, dual Canadian/other citizenship is freely permitted;
foreign naturalization is =not= a basis for losing Canadian
citizenship, and the only way for a Canadian citizen who was
born in Canada to lose citizenship is by filing a formal
renunciation of citizenship (on a special Canadian form)
with Canadian officials. Taking a foreign oath of alle-
giance, no matter what it might say about renouncing or
abjuring other allegiances, means =nothing= under current
Canadian law.
Kiahlin mentioned the "lost Canadians" and the May 2005
law allowing certain people born with Canadian citizenship
to get it back. Note, though, that this would be totally
irrelevant to Kiahlin's situation, since the May 2005 law
was directed at people who lost Canadian citizenship as a
result of a parent's losing their citizenship -- something
that doesn't describe Kiahlin's situation. Again, based
on what Kiahlin has said, he =never= lost his Canadian
citizenship and is =still= a Canadian citizen now.
(2) Since he was born in 1972, there is no way Kiahlin could
have lost his US citizenship. If he had been born signif-
icantly earlier, he could have lost his US citizenship
before 1978 -- either by failing to move to the US before
age 26, or by making use of his Canadian citizenship as
an adult (such as by applying for and using a Canadian
passport). The law providing for loss under such circum-
stances, however, was repealed by Congress in late 1978,
and Kiahlin (being only six years old at that time) could
not possibly have fallen into any of the categories under
which his US citizenship might have been lost prior to
the repeal of this law.
So, I'm pretty sure Kiahlin has both US and Canadian citizen-
ship now. Note, BTW, that any claims Kiahlin may have heard
during his lifetime about having to formally choose a single
citizenship at age 18, 21, or at any other time, are urban
myths with no basis in present-day US or Canadian law.
Regarding Canadian officials' request for proof of Kiahlin's
(and/or his parents') status in the US, in order to issue him
a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (credit-card-sized,
plastic-laminated photo ID, commonly known as a "citizenship
card"), my understanding is that this information is normally
sought in order to tell whether a person who moved to the US
may have lost Canadian citizenship under provisions of Canada's
pre-1977 citizenship law. (In contrast to current Canadian
law, which took effect on 15 February 1977, the pre-1977 law
was pretty intolerant of dual citizenship and provided several
ways whereby Canadian citizenship could be lost.)
Basically, as far as I know, the only way someone of Kiahlin's
age could have lost Canadian citizenship would be if their
father (or, in some special cases, their mother) had lost or
given up Canadian citizenship prior to 2/15/77 -- such as by
becoming a citizen of another country (something that resulted
in loss of Canadian citizenship then, although it does =not=
have that effect under present-day Canadian law). However,
it would have been impossible for Kiahlin to have lost his
Canadian citizen- ship in this way, since his father never
acquired Canadian citizenship in the first place (and thus
could not have lost it, given that he never had it).
My impression is that it may be possible for Kiahlin to satisfy
the Canadian citizenship officials' concerns by showing that
his parents never became Canadian citizens -- and thus couldn't
have lost Canadian citizenship -- at least up till 2/15/77.
(Anything happening on or after that date would be irrelevant,
because as of that date it was no longer possible for a child
to lose Canadian citizenship as a result of any action by the
parents.)
Showing that Kiahlin's parents were born in the US (and were
thus already US citizens before Kiahlin was born) might also
help bolster the presumption that they didn't lose Canadian
citizenship by acquiring US citizenship later on -- in case
it somehow turns out to be difficult to show that his parents
never became Canadian citizens during their stay in Canada.
And if Kiahlin and his parents stayed in Canada until at least
2/15/77, it's probably won't really be necessary for him to
show anything at all regarding his or his parents' status in
the US.
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
if my guess that Kiahlin is male turns out to be wrong.]
As best I can tell from Kiahlin's story, he is almost certainly
a citizen (by birth) of both the US and Canada.
(1) He was born with Canadian citizenship because he was born in
Canada (in 1972), to parents who were not foreign diplomats.
(2) He was also born with US citizenship because, although he was
born outside the US, both of his parents were US citizens,
and at least one (actually, in this case, both) of his
parents had resided in the US for some period of time prior
to Kiahlin's birth in Canada.
Note that, in the case where both parents of a non-US-born
child are US citizens, the child is automatically a US
citizen as long as =either= parent "had a residence" in
the US for =any= amount of time prior to the child's birth.
My experience has been that US consulates will ask for, and
normally accept, a parent's having been physically present
in the US for at least one full year as satisfying this
requirement -- but this is =not= what the law actually says.
It also seems pretty clear to me that Kiahlin never lost either
citizenship and still has both citizenships.
(1) Since he was born in Canada to parents who were not, and
never became, Canadian citizens, the only way he could lose
Canadian citizenship would be if he were to make a formal
renunciation of his Canadian citizenship, submitted to
Canadian officials, on or after his 18th birthday. It
doesn't appear he ever did any such thing.
Note that even if the oath Kiahlin was (perhaps illegally)
required by US officials to take in order to get a US pass-
port in 1987 was the standard US naturalization oath --
which contains a blanket statement disavowing all other
allegiances -- this would not have been recognized under
Canadian law as having any legal effect on Kiahlin's Cana-
dian citizenship. Under Canada's current (1977) citizenship
law, dual Canadian/other citizenship is freely permitted;
foreign naturalization is =not= a basis for losing Canadian
citizenship, and the only way for a Canadian citizen who was
born in Canada to lose citizenship is by filing a formal
renunciation of citizenship (on a special Canadian form)
with Canadian officials. Taking a foreign oath of alle-
giance, no matter what it might say about renouncing or
abjuring other allegiances, means =nothing= under current
Canadian law.
Kiahlin mentioned the "lost Canadians" and the May 2005
law allowing certain people born with Canadian citizenship
to get it back. Note, though, that this would be totally
irrelevant to Kiahlin's situation, since the May 2005 law
was directed at people who lost Canadian citizenship as a
result of a parent's losing their citizenship -- something
that doesn't describe Kiahlin's situation. Again, based
on what Kiahlin has said, he =never= lost his Canadian
citizenship and is =still= a Canadian citizen now.
(2) Since he was born in 1972, there is no way Kiahlin could
have lost his US citizenship. If he had been born signif-
icantly earlier, he could have lost his US citizenship
before 1978 -- either by failing to move to the US before
age 26, or by making use of his Canadian citizenship as
an adult (such as by applying for and using a Canadian
passport). The law providing for loss under such circum-
stances, however, was repealed by Congress in late 1978,
and Kiahlin (being only six years old at that time) could
not possibly have fallen into any of the categories under
which his US citizenship might have been lost prior to
the repeal of this law.
So, I'm pretty sure Kiahlin has both US and Canadian citizen-
ship now. Note, BTW, that any claims Kiahlin may have heard
during his lifetime about having to formally choose a single
citizenship at age 18, 21, or at any other time, are urban
myths with no basis in present-day US or Canadian law.
Regarding Canadian officials' request for proof of Kiahlin's
(and/or his parents') status in the US, in order to issue him
a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (credit-card-sized,
plastic-laminated photo ID, commonly known as a "citizenship
card"), my understanding is that this information is normally
sought in order to tell whether a person who moved to the US
may have lost Canadian citizenship under provisions of Canada's
pre-1977 citizenship law. (In contrast to current Canadian
law, which took effect on 15 February 1977, the pre-1977 law
was pretty intolerant of dual citizenship and provided several
ways whereby Canadian citizenship could be lost.)
Basically, as far as I know, the only way someone of Kiahlin's
age could have lost Canadian citizenship would be if their
father (or, in some special cases, their mother) had lost or
given up Canadian citizenship prior to 2/15/77 -- such as by
becoming a citizen of another country (something that resulted
in loss of Canadian citizenship then, although it does =not=
have that effect under present-day Canadian law). However,
it would have been impossible for Kiahlin to have lost his
Canadian citizen- ship in this way, since his father never
acquired Canadian citizenship in the first place (and thus
could not have lost it, given that he never had it).
My impression is that it may be possible for Kiahlin to satisfy
the Canadian citizenship officials' concerns by showing that
his parents never became Canadian citizens -- and thus couldn't
have lost Canadian citizenship -- at least up till 2/15/77.
(Anything happening on or after that date would be irrelevant,
because as of that date it was no longer possible for a child
to lose Canadian citizenship as a result of any action by the
parents.)
Showing that Kiahlin's parents were born in the US (and were
thus already US citizens before Kiahlin was born) might also
help bolster the presumption that they didn't lose Canadian
citizenship by acquiring US citizenship later on -- in case
it somehow turns out to be difficult to show that his parents
never became Canadian citizens during their stay in Canada.
And if Kiahlin and his parents stayed in Canada until at least
2/15/77, it's probably won't really be necessary for him to
show anything at all regarding his or his parents' status in
the US.
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
Jan 1st 2006, 11:44 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Kiahlin wrote:
> Greetings,
> Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
> you will think of it.
> First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
> of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
> a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
> in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
> July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
> had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
> I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> latter half of 1977 in the US).
> When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
> status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
> embassy/consulate.
> Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
> documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
> the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
> go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
> to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
> and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
> passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
> to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
> agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
> I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
> taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
> After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
> meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
> pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
> the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
> changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
> year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
> my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> application package.
In theory, you shouldn't really have to apply for a citizenship card.
Your Canadian birth certificate proves that you received Canadian
citizenship at birth. Most people who have citizenship cards are
either people who naturalized as Canadian citizens or who were born
outside Canada to a Canadian parent. You could simply apply for a
Canadian passport.
That being said, if it's your first Canadian passport they will still
ask for the "proof of status" in the US (because they need to verify
that you didn't lose your Canadian citizenship prior to 1977, when the
law changed).
So, it's not that you don't qualify for a citizenship card. You can
get one if you wish. But since you were born in Canada, it's an
unnecessary expense.
Stephen Gallagher
> Greetings,
> Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of
> you will think of it.
> First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety
> of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having
> a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there
> in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
> July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father
> had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
> I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> latter half of 1977 in the US).
> When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident
> status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US
> embassy/consulate.
> Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what
> documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to
> the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to
> go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order
> to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in,
> and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
> passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport
> to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing
> agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long
> I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
> taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well.
> After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
> meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
> pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
> the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
> changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
> year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for
> my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> application package.
In theory, you shouldn't really have to apply for a citizenship card.
Your Canadian birth certificate proves that you received Canadian
citizenship at birth. Most people who have citizenship cards are
either people who naturalized as Canadian citizens or who were born
outside Canada to a Canadian parent. You could simply apply for a
Canadian passport.
That being said, if it's your first Canadian passport they will still
ask for the "proof of status" in the US (because they need to verify
that you didn't lose your Canadian citizenship prior to 1977, when the
law changed).
So, it's not that you don't qualify for a citizenship card. You can
get one if you wish. But since you were born in Canada, it's an
unnecessary expense.
Stephen Gallagher
Jan 1st 2006, 11:54 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
celine_uk wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any
> > of
> > you will think of it.
> >
> > First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> > however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a
> > variety
> > of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father
> > having
> > a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> > Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not
> > there
> > in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> >
> > They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
> > July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> > which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my
> > father
> > had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> > going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
> > I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> > latter half of 1977 in the US).
> >
> > When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal
> > resident
> > status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> > become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a
> > US
> > embassy/consulate.
> >
> > Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know
> > what
> > documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> > didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit
> > to
> > the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had
> > to
> > go through the process of receiving a US social security number in
> > order
> > to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> > parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> > passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent
> > in,
> > and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> >
> > I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
> > passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> > number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my
> > passport
> > to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport
> > issuing
> > agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how
> > long
> > I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
> > taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as
> > well.
> > After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
> > meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> >
> > Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> > (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
> > pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
> > the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> > probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
> > changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
> > year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off
> > for
> > my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> > consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> > brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> > apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> > application package.
> >
> > But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
> > of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a
> > loose
> > sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package
> > the
> > Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
> > acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card,
> > US
> > Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
> > parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
> > either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
> > Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also
> > do
> > not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my
> > parents
> > were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
> > Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
> > considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now,
> > there
> > is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
> > 'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package,
> > entitled,
> > "Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
> > category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship
> > certificate,
> > and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
> > status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists
> > this
> > requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
> > Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
> >
> > I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status
> > in
> > the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
> > security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
> > birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
> > fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
> > 'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
> > but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
> >
> > I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
> > parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums
> > about
> > a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
> > parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
> > time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
> > requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
> > my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
> > father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
> > US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
> > to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
> > I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required
> > amount
> > of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
> > (school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
> > certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
> > document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
> > regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
> >
> > I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
> > thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
> >
> > --Kiahlin
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://expatforums.com
> isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??
It is. But it doesn't prove when he received his US citizenship, and
that is important from a Canadian standpoint.
The Canadian officials are trying to determine whether or not Kiahlin
may have lost Canadian citizenship under the pre-1977 nationality laws
in Canada. As has been explained in other posts, if Kiahlin's father
had been a Canadian (which he was not), and if his father had
naturalized in the US (or any other country) after Kiahlin was born but
before the 1977 laws were in place then Kiahlin would have lost
Canadian citizenship along with his father.
Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian citizenship.
Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become a US citizen due to his
(or a parent's) naturalization outside of Canada prior to 1977.
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any
> > of
> > you will think of it.
> >
> > First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents,
> > however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a
> > variety
> > of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father
> > having
> > a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the
> > Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not
> > there
> > in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.
> >
> > They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in
> > July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by
> > which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my
> > father
> > had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him
> > going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate.
> > I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the
> > latter half of 1977 in the US).
> >
> > When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal
> > resident
> > status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and
> > become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a
> > US
> > embassy/consulate.
> >
> > Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know
> > what
> > documents were required at the time. I continued through school and
> > didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit
> > to
> > the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had
> > to
> > go through the process of receiving a US social security number in
> > order
> > to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a
> > parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the
> > passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent
> > in,
> > and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.
> >
> > I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US
> > passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security
> > number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my
> > passport
> > to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport
> > issuing
> > agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how
> > long
> > I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US
> > taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as
> > well.
> > After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this
> > meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.
> >
> > Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen
> > (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken
> > pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on
> > the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was
> > probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of
> > changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this
> > year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off
> > for
> > my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian
> > consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a
> > brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should
> > apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an
> > application package.
> >
> > But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies)
> > of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a
> > loose
> > sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package
> > the
> > Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As
> > acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card,
> > US
> > Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my
> > parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere,
> > either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien
> > Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also
> > do
> > not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my
> > parents
> > were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian.
> > Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not-
> > considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now,
> > there
> > is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the
> > 'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package,
> > entitled,
> > "Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the
> > category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship
> > certificate,
> > and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of
> > status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists
> > this
> > requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the
> > Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.
> >
> > I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status
> > in
> > the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social
> > security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my
> > birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the
> > fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the
> > 'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include,
> > but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.
> >
> > I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my
> > parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums
> > about
> > a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for
> > parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some
> > time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that
> > requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as
> > my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my
> > father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the
> > US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming
> > to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So
> > I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required
> > amount
> > of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen
> > (school/university records?). And since the US does not issue
> > certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what
> > document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate
> > regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.
> >
> > I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But
> > thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!
> >
> > --Kiahlin
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://expatforums.com
> isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??
It is. But it doesn't prove when he received his US citizenship, and
that is important from a Canadian standpoint.
The Canadian officials are trying to determine whether or not Kiahlin
may have lost Canadian citizenship under the pre-1977 nationality laws
in Canada. As has been explained in other posts, if Kiahlin's father
had been a Canadian (which he was not), and if his father had
naturalized in the US (or any other country) after Kiahlin was born but
before the 1977 laws were in place then Kiahlin would have lost
Canadian citizenship along with his father.
Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian citizenship.
Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become a US citizen due to his
(or a parent's) naturalization outside of Canada prior to 1977.
Jan 1st 2006, 12:04 pm
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
> Thanks very much to everyone for the responses. I do apologize for
> the length of my initial post -- I have a very bad habit of doing that
> when first explaining a situation. If there is any New Year's
> resolution list for me, trying to be more brief should be near the top
> of that list.
> In any case, you've given me some informative and interesting responses.
> I actually did receive a response back from the Canadian consulate today
> (via email), and the lady I've been "speaking" to said that I should
> just send in my US passport as 'proof of US status' along with a letter
> explaining why I can't send one of the other listed documents, instead.
> I must say, I am a bit loathe to send in my passport, and not only
> because I wouldn't have it for six to ten months (that's the time period
> stated in the docs sent to me for the processing of a first-time
> Canadian citizenship certificate app!), but also because the loose-sheet
> list of docs to send in specifically states that a US passport is NOT
> official 'proof of status' in the US. It looks like the US recognizes
> it as such, with your responses, but not Canada.
You could confirm whether they will keep your US passport for the
entire time. They may simply make a copy of it then send the US
passport back to you. While they will not accept copies, if they make
the copy themselves then they know it to be true.
> Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks
> like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a
> letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm
> surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But
> the passport thing surprises me just as much.
I don't know if it would be acceptable, unless it showed the date that
you acquired your US citizenship, which in your case would be the date
that you were born. That is what they're trying to verify.
> the length of my initial post -- I have a very bad habit of doing that
> when first explaining a situation. If there is any New Year's
> resolution list for me, trying to be more brief should be near the top
> of that list.
> In any case, you've given me some informative and interesting responses.
> I actually did receive a response back from the Canadian consulate today
> (via email), and the lady I've been "speaking" to said that I should
> just send in my US passport as 'proof of US status' along with a letter
> explaining why I can't send one of the other listed documents, instead.
> I must say, I am a bit loathe to send in my passport, and not only
> because I wouldn't have it for six to ten months (that's the time period
> stated in the docs sent to me for the processing of a first-time
> Canadian citizenship certificate app!), but also because the loose-sheet
> list of docs to send in specifically states that a US passport is NOT
> official 'proof of status' in the US. It looks like the US recognizes
> it as such, with your responses, but not Canada.
You could confirm whether they will keep your US passport for the
entire time. They may simply make a copy of it then send the US
passport back to you. While they will not accept copies, if they make
the copy themselves then they know it to be true.
> Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks
> like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a
> letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm
> surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But
> the passport thing surprises me just as much.
I don't know if it would be acceptable, unless it showed the date that
you acquired your US citizenship, which in your case would be the date
that you were born. That is what they're trying to verify.
Jan 4th 2006, 2:40 pm
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
[email protected] wrote:
> celine_uk wrote:
[..]
> >
> > isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??
> It is. But it doesn't prove when he received his US citizenship, and
> that is important from a Canadian standpoint.
> The Canadian officials are trying to determine whether or not Kiahlin
> may have lost Canadian citizenship under the pre-1977 nationality laws
> in Canada. As has been explained in other posts, if Kiahlin's father
> had been a Canadian (which he was not), and if his father had
> naturalized in the US (or any other country) after Kiahlin was born but
> before the 1977 laws were in place then Kiahlin would have lost
> Canadian citizenship along with his father.
> Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian citizenship.
> Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become a US citizen due to his
> (or a parent's) naturalization outside of Canada prior to 1977.
Interesting. But didn't he become US citizen the moment he was born?
Or that's for only those born inside US regradless of parents' status?
> celine_uk wrote:
[..]
> >
> > isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??
> It is. But it doesn't prove when he received his US citizenship, and
> that is important from a Canadian standpoint.
> The Canadian officials are trying to determine whether or not Kiahlin
> may have lost Canadian citizenship under the pre-1977 nationality laws
> in Canada. As has been explained in other posts, if Kiahlin's father
> had been a Canadian (which he was not), and if his father had
> naturalized in the US (or any other country) after Kiahlin was born but
> before the 1977 laws were in place then Kiahlin would have lost
> Canadian citizenship along with his father.
> Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian citizenship.
> Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become a US citizen due to his
> (or a parent's) naturalization outside of Canada prior to 1977.
Interesting. But didn't he become US citizen the moment he was born?
Or that's for only those born inside US regradless of parents' status?
Jan 5th 2006, 2:55 am
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian
> > citizenship. Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become
> > a US citizen due to his (or a parent's) naturalization
> > outside of Canada prior to 1977.
Actually, what Kiahlin needs to do is show that his =father= did not
become a naturalized US citizen (thereby losing Canadian citizenship)
prior to 15 Feb. 1977. This didn't happen, BTW, according to Kiah-
lin's story, but the Canadian procedures for verifying someone's
citizenship take the possibility into account.
This gets really complicated, but under Canada's pre-1977 citizenship
law, if an adult Canadian became a citizen of any other country, he
or she automatically lost Canadian citizenship. (That doesn't happen
any more, under current Canadian law, but it did back then.) And
if a Canadian man lost his Canadian citizenship, then his dependent
=children= would =also= lose =their= Canadian citizenship in most
cases (again, under the pre-1977 law -- Canada's current citizenship
law doesn't have this provision).
So, when someone born in Canada moved abroad before 15 Feb. 1977, and
then wants to get proof from the Canadian government that he/she is
a Canadian citizen, they routinely ask for proof that the person (or
his/her parents) didn't acquire citizenship in the other country at
a time when that would have led to loss of Canadian citizenship. In
the case of someone who moved to the US, Canadian officials routinely
ask for proof of visa status as of 1977 (such as a student visa or a
"green card") -- thus demonstrating that the applicant (and his/her
parents, if the applicant was a minor at the time) still had an alien
status and didn't obtain US citizenship.
Now, in Kiahlin's case, his parents didn't lose Canadian citizenship
because they never =had= Canadian citizenship (they were alien perma-
nent residents of Canada when Kiahlin was born, and they left Canada
without ever becoming Canadian citizens). And while it's true that
Kiahlin and his parents were US citizens, that wasn't because any
Canadians got naturalized -- the parents were US citizens before they
moved to Canada in the first place, and Kiahlin himself automatically
got US citizenship at birth because of his parents' citizenship.
So, the standard material Kiahlin said he was being asked for isn't
really applicable to his situation. But chances are he'll at least
have to show =why= the standard questions don't apply in his case.
[email protected] replied:
> But didn't he become a US citizen the moment he was born?
> Or is that only for those born inside the US, regradless
> of the parents' status?
In many cases (subject to a bunch of complex rules), a child born
outside the US to an American parent or parents =does= get auto-
matic US citizenship at birth.
One of these cases is when both parents of a non-US-born child are
US citizens. As long as either parent had =ever= lived in the US
prior to the child being born, the child is a US citizen as far as
the US is concerned. (He/she might also be a citizen of another
country -- such as the country of his/her birth -- under that
other country's laws, but the US really couldn't care less about
that.)
In this case, it seems pretty certain that Kiahlin was in fact
born with US citizenship, because of his American parents.
Of course, a child in this sort of situation needs to be brought
to the attention of US officials somehow, or else they'll never
know he/she is a US citizen by birth. This is preferably done
by the parents' contacting a US embassy or consulate shortly
after their child's birth -- in which case, after seeing suitable
documentation, the US government will issue a special certificate
(a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad") which says the baby is a US
citizen. This certificate can be used as proof of citizenship
for getting a US passport, or for other purposes.
In Kiahlin's case, his parents apparently never bothered to have
him registered with US officials when he was a baby. He's still
a natural-born US citizen -- his parents' omission doesn't change
that -- but now that he's all grown up, it's going to be a bit
more involved for him to amass all the necessary documentation to
prove his status now. It's still doable; it's just going to be
more of a hassle.
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
> > Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian
> > citizenship. Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become
> > a US citizen due to his (or a parent's) naturalization
> > outside of Canada prior to 1977.
Actually, what Kiahlin needs to do is show that his =father= did not
become a naturalized US citizen (thereby losing Canadian citizenship)
prior to 15 Feb. 1977. This didn't happen, BTW, according to Kiah-
lin's story, but the Canadian procedures for verifying someone's
citizenship take the possibility into account.
This gets really complicated, but under Canada's pre-1977 citizenship
law, if an adult Canadian became a citizen of any other country, he
or she automatically lost Canadian citizenship. (That doesn't happen
any more, under current Canadian law, but it did back then.) And
if a Canadian man lost his Canadian citizenship, then his dependent
=children= would =also= lose =their= Canadian citizenship in most
cases (again, under the pre-1977 law -- Canada's current citizenship
law doesn't have this provision).
So, when someone born in Canada moved abroad before 15 Feb. 1977, and
then wants to get proof from the Canadian government that he/she is
a Canadian citizen, they routinely ask for proof that the person (or
his/her parents) didn't acquire citizenship in the other country at
a time when that would have led to loss of Canadian citizenship. In
the case of someone who moved to the US, Canadian officials routinely
ask for proof of visa status as of 1977 (such as a student visa or a
"green card") -- thus demonstrating that the applicant (and his/her
parents, if the applicant was a minor at the time) still had an alien
status and didn't obtain US citizenship.
Now, in Kiahlin's case, his parents didn't lose Canadian citizenship
because they never =had= Canadian citizenship (they were alien perma-
nent residents of Canada when Kiahlin was born, and they left Canada
without ever becoming Canadian citizens). And while it's true that
Kiahlin and his parents were US citizens, that wasn't because any
Canadians got naturalized -- the parents were US citizens before they
moved to Canada in the first place, and Kiahlin himself automatically
got US citizenship at birth because of his parents' citizenship.
So, the standard material Kiahlin said he was being asked for isn't
really applicable to his situation. But chances are he'll at least
have to show =why= the standard questions don't apply in his case.
[email protected] replied:
> But didn't he become a US citizen the moment he was born?
> Or is that only for those born inside the US, regradless
> of the parents' status?
In many cases (subject to a bunch of complex rules), a child born
outside the US to an American parent or parents =does= get auto-
matic US citizenship at birth.
One of these cases is when both parents of a non-US-born child are
US citizens. As long as either parent had =ever= lived in the US
prior to the child being born, the child is a US citizen as far as
the US is concerned. (He/she might also be a citizen of another
country -- such as the country of his/her birth -- under that
other country's laws, but the US really couldn't care less about
that.)
In this case, it seems pretty certain that Kiahlin was in fact
born with US citizenship, because of his American parents.
Of course, a child in this sort of situation needs to be brought
to the attention of US officials somehow, or else they'll never
know he/she is a US citizen by birth. This is preferably done
by the parents' contacting a US embassy or consulate shortly
after their child's birth -- in which case, after seeing suitable
documentation, the US government will issue a special certificate
(a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad") which says the baby is a US
citizen. This certificate can be used as proof of citizenship
for getting a US passport, or for other purposes.
In Kiahlin's case, his parents apparently never bothered to have
him registered with US officials when he was a baby. He's still
a natural-born US citizen -- his parents' omission doesn't change
that -- but now that he's all grown up, it's going to be a bit
more involved for him to amass all the necessary documentation to
prove his status now. It's still doable; it's just going to be
more of a hassle.
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
Jan 5th 2006, 4:18 am
#14
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Question regarding US citizenship
Originally Posted by Rich Wales
Stephen Gallagher wrote:
This gets really complicated, but under Canada's pre-1977 citizenship
law, if an adult Canadian became a citizen of any other country, he
or she automatically lost Canadian citizenship. (That doesn't happen
any more, under current Canadian law, but it did back then.) And
if a Canadian man lost his Canadian citizenship, then his dependent
=children= would =also= lose =their= Canadian citizenship in most
cases (again, under the pre-1977 law -- Canada's current citizenship
law doesn't have this provision).
This gets really complicated, but under Canada's pre-1977 citizenship
law, if an adult Canadian became a citizen of any other country, he
or she automatically lost Canadian citizenship. (That doesn't happen
any more, under current Canadian law, but it did back then.) And
if a Canadian man lost his Canadian citizenship, then his dependent
=children= would =also= lose =their= Canadian citizenship in most
cases (again, under the pre-1977 law -- Canada's current citizenship
law doesn't have this provision).
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen...esumption.html
