Folinskyinla

Hi:

An interesting link [as a lawyer, I received my paper copy yesterday]:

http://calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/ca...op%20Headlines

I'm very well aware of the fact that "UPL" is a sensitive subject in this NG and some consider such discussions to be a definite violation of the penumbra of the written rules for one gateway -- so I'll refrain from detailed comment.

However, I emphathize with Alan Diamante quoted in the article. What Alan does is what the lawyers in our suite call "janitorial work" and my hat is off to him. Alan rocks!

Ray

So how do we know you are really Stuart I. Folinsky and not
Fred Pigandwhistle a charlatan of the said parish......

jeninifer

What an interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

I always see mentions or suggestions, if you will, that certain people here are illegally practicing law. Am I blind that I don't see it? Am I blind that I don't know if I've ever seen it?

When accusations are made about "UPL" who is to say that every participant in this newsgroup doesn't fall under that category?

When you make a suggestion as to what one should bring to their AOS interview - does that fall under UPL?

When a BE participant marries in the US and come here to find out where to go next and someone tells them what forms to fall - is this, too, UPL?

Where is the line drawn and what makes one or two people more guilty of this than others? To be perfectly honest, I don't know if I even consider most of Mr. Udall's and Mr. Folinksy's posts as "practicing law." Or is it because you are qualified attorneys that every suggestion or comment you make is bound to your practice?

I'm not trying to cause animosity or arguments - I really just don't feel like I've ever seen a person in the news group post something that I would consider illegally practicing law. Then again, I don't read every single post.

It's just something that I've been wondering these past few weeks and curious if anyone else has had the same questions.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

That is a good question -- and it points out a real problem. Some years back, when the AILA "Infonet" was a private forum on CompuServe [pre-web days], one of those UPL'ers working with a licensed attorney named Linda "X" actually had the gall to post in the attorney's chat area -- and I started a "not Linda" campaign to stop it. [I'm no stranger to "flame wars" -- but I do try to be restrained and limit myself to getting my point across without any vitriol].

In dealing with a law office, it is fine if they have para-professional staff -- but do be careful.

Folinskyinla

Jennifer:

The dividing line is somewhat fuzzy. I will be the first to admit that. Friendly "conversations" are not "PL", authorized or not. There are many factors that go into what is "PL" and what is not.

On the flip side of things, **I** have to be careful to avoid "PL" in the sense of creating an "attorney-client" relationship by my postings. Hence the phrase "I'm a lawyer, but I'm not YOUR lawyer" and the generalities in many of my postings.

PL, whether "U" or not, is a touchy issue here. The line is not what we lawyer-types call a "bright line." I wouldn't worry all that much about it -- you have Matt and I to keep things "honest" on this score.

jeninifer

I'm not so sure how I feel about this. ;o)

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Ice skating can be fun -- even if you don't know what line you are crossing.

Matthew Udall

Yeah, I saw that article yesterday on the Cal. Bar's website (but also received my bar journal yesterday too).

I find it interesting that the danger of UPL in the immigration context was specifically mentioned in the article.

Of course, they talk about notorios, and I don't think they are fully aware of the danger posed by net-tarios.

Ray

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......... and the chances they will do anything about
is zero...its a lose lose situation for everbody...shut one lot up and a dozen more will appear.... The notatios are the one's taking money out of your pocket...not the net-tarios.... and lets be frank the law on UPL was only made to protect the interest of lawyers....

Hypertweeky

I am never going ice skating anymore
I shouldn't worry about "UPL" since my posts are fluffy like

Matthew Udall

Hi Frank. You are right. And the law prohibiting the practice of medicine from unlicensed individuals diagnosing others medical problems and recommending courses of treatment (for free of course) is only there to protect doctors. And I believe the rules restricting the piloting of airlines by only those possessing the proper license (I’d do it for free if I was allowed) is there just to protect the pilots.

I actually think protecting the public comes into play.

And maybe UPL from net-tarios would just go off shore (the vehicle that facilitates this). Do you think it would have the same credibility? And lets say someone from New York (just picking a random example state here) engaged in UPL on the off shore site. Would that magically wipe out the UPL committed in New York by a New Yorker just because the electrons passed through an electronic device in another country on their way to the recipient?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I personally draw a distinction between those occasionally sharing what happened in their own case vs. those who make it a habit and hobby of rendering legal advice over the span of years. News groups usually contain both types of participants.

Plus, isn’t the rendering of legal advice “commercial speech”? Commercial speech is less protected than other types of speech (political speech would be a different type of speech perhaps more protected).

But the concept that all speech is equally protected is certainly a romantic notion often held by those who have not looked into the subject.

This is all I’m going to say on this. I just got back here and don’t want to be banned again.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Beg to disagree. There are areas of what is traditionally "practice of law" which, at least in California, are performed by NON-lawyers -- residential real estate, such as the contracts, title searches, escrows, etc, etc are NOT handled by lawyers here. And it is to the advantage of the public that this is done.

scrubbedexpat099

I always thought the definition of UPL was something Lawyers think they can charge lots of money to advise on.

Ray

Oh!! you two make it so easy .....LOL.....

And you point of offshore net-tarios .is off course very easy
My ISP number is quite easy to fake to show I am in Botswanaland
or anywhere else when and if I was distributing any UPL info..

ian-mstm

I've heard that parts of Florida (just picking a random example state here) look very much like Botswanaland!

Ian