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Old Sep 4th 2008, 1:23 pm   #16
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Originally Posted by Folinskyinla View Post
However, in relation to drug related offenses you do make a valid point: J mentioned that if it is not a crime where the act was committed, there is no CIMT. You posited a slightly different situation where an act is a crime, albeit one never prosecuted as a matter of public policy.

I would agree with you that the language of the I-94W would make smoking of week in the NL problematical.
In NL, smoking weed is legal, not just public policy. Possession of weed is legal if it is such a small amount that it is clearly intended only for you own enjoyment and not for trafficking.
For people coming from NL there should therefore not be any problems with answering that particular question with "No" (if of course no CIMT took place in another field) if they smoked weed.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 2:03 pm   #17
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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In NL, smoking weed is legal, not just public policy. Possession of weed is legal if it is such a small amount that it is clearly intended only for you own enjoyment and not for trafficking.
According to Wikipedia

"Cannabis remains a controlled substance in the Netherlands and both possession and production for personal use are still misdemeanors, punishable by fine. Coffee shops are also technically illegal according to the statutes but, as has been said, are flourishing nonetheless. However, a policy of non-enforcement has led to a situation where reliance upon non-enforcement has become common, and because of this the courts have ruled against the government when individual cases were prosecuted."

I'm not aware of any country where the use or possession of cannabis is legal.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 2:12 pm   #18
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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In NL, smoking weed is legal, not just public policy. Possession of weed is legal if it is such a small amount that it is clearly intended only for you own enjoyment and not for trafficking.
For people coming from NL there should therefore not be any problems with answering that particular question with "No" (if of course no CIMT took place in another field) if they smoked weed.
Hi:

You are demonstrating the pitfalls that J is talking about. Before responding, I did some quick and dirty research -- which confirmed what I wrote.

The Dutch model is fairly well known -- institutionalized non-enforcement of certain drug laws.

Marijuana has been de facto decriminalized in the Netherlands even though there still exist de jure offenses. I've seen lay articles which talk in terms of marijuana possession/use being "technically illegal."

It is often these "technicalities" that can cause problems if the US authorities decide to have "zero tolerance" on the subject. Although it didn't involve drugs -- the collapse of Delta's TransPacific route system due to its routing through the "DePortland" hub is instructive of things that can happen in US Immigration enforcement due to policy changes.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 2:45 pm   #19
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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According to Wikipedia

"Cannabis remains a controlled substance in the Netherlands and both possession and production for personal use are still misdemeanors, punishable by fine. Coffee shops are also technically illegal according to the statutes but, as has been said, are flourishing nonetheless. However, a policy of non-enforcement has led to a situation where reliance upon non-enforcement has become common, and because of this the courts have ruled against the government when individual cases were prosecuted."

I'm not aware of any country where the use or possession of cannabis is legal.
Can't help to respond to this one once more:

According to art. 11, part 6 of the opium law in The Netherlands:

"6.Het tweede lid is niet van toepassing, indien het feit betrekking heeft op een hoeveelheid van hennep of hasjiesj van ten hoogste 30 gram.
--> Translated this comes down to it being legal to have in your possesion no more than 30 grams of cannabis (hasjiesj).
Production is absolutely illegal, as if trafficking.
Smoking however is not illegal.

I myself can't say that I'm really fond of a law like this but it is the law here.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 3:15 pm   #20
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Can't help to respond to this one once more:

According to art. 11, part 6 of the opium law in The Netherlands:

"6.Het tweede lid is niet van toepassing, indien het feit betrekking heeft op een hoeveelheid van hennep of hasjiesj van ten hoogste 30 gram.
--> Translated this comes down to it being legal to have in your possesion no more than 30 grams of cannabis (hasjiesj).
I don't speak Dutch, but this English language EU website states that

"Possession of any controlled drug is a criminal offence, with possession of up to 30g of cannabis legally punishable by imprisonment for one month and/or a fine of €2250, but small quantities of cannabis products for personal use are exempt from punishment."

The source given is Opium Act, Art. 3C; Opium Act Directive. It adds that

"The Directive states that investigation and prosecution of possession of cannabis for personal use (up to 5g) have the lowest judicial priority; the sale of up to 5g of cannabis per transaction in 'coffee shops' is generally not investigated (a transaction includes all sales and purchases made by a single coffee shop in the same day with the same buyer). AHOJ-G guidelines specify the terms and conditions for sale of cannabis in coffee shops. The maximum stock allowed at any one time is 500g per coffee shop."

So it appears to be decriminalised rather than legal.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 4:11 pm   #21
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Originally Posted by memiek View Post
Can't help to respond to this one once more:

According to art. 11, part 6 of the opium law in The Netherlands:

"6.Het tweede lid is niet van toepassing, indien het feit betrekking heeft op een hoeveelheid van hennep of hasjiesj van ten hoogste 30 gram.
--> Translated this comes down to it being legal to have in your possesion no more than 30 grams of cannabis (hasjiesj).
Production is absolutely illegal, as if trafficking.
Smoking however is not illegal.

I myself can't say that I'm really fond of a law like this but it is the law here.
Hi:

Your point is very well taken. All that I will note is that the English language secondary sources indicate the possession of less than 30 grams is an offense, but one that is that is not enforced as a matter of official policy.

Do note that the US CBP inspectors [what my friend J calls "border guards"] have total power to exclude without any judicial review. They are not lawyers and they definitely do not speak Dutch. And if they exclude based upon an admission of marijuana use, the US Government Computer Data Base will cease being your friend and will become an active enemy.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 4:23 pm   #22
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

Read a statistic that 1/3 of Brits had done drugs. A supposition might be that 1/3 of Brits who naturalize as US citizens probably lied on their N400. It gets really stupid, doesn't it?
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 4:26 pm   #23
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Originally Posted by Folinskyinla View Post
Hi:

Your point is very well taken. All that I will note is that the English language secondary sources indicate the possession of less than 30 grams is an offense, but one that is that is not enforced as a matter of official policy.

Do note that the US CBP inspectors [what my friend J calls "border guards"] have total power to exclude without any judicial review. They are not lawyers and they definitely do not speak Dutch. And if they exclude based upon an admission of marijuana use, the US Government Computer Data Base will cease being your friend and will become an active enemy.
Point taken
Luckily for me then that I do not use or intend to use these kind of substances
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 6:17 pm   #24
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Read a statistic that 1/3 of Brits had done drugs. A supposition might be that 1/3 of Brits who naturalize as US citizens probably lied on their N400. It gets really stupid, doesn't it?
Hi:

There are philosophical debates about what constitutes "justice" -- there is often a dichotomy between what the law says and how it is applied -- personal use of weed is one of those areas. And it just doesn't apply to immigration only. As the late Chick Hearn often said before his refrigerator door closed, "no harm, no foul."
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:29 pm   #25
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Read a statistic that 1/3 of Brits had done drugs. A supposition might be that 1/3 of Brits who naturalize as US citizens probably lied on their N400. It gets really stupid, doesn't it?
I wonder if, theoretically, taking cocodamol in the UK without a prescription (as it is an over the counter tablet in the UK) would be construed as "taking drugs" in the US, as codeine in any form is a prescribed drug? If it is, I'm screwed if I finally do file my N400!
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:34 pm   #26
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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I wonder if, theoretically, taking cocodamol in the UK without a prescription (as it is an over the counter tablet in the UK) would be construed as "taking drugs" in the US, as codeine in any form is a prescribed drug? If it is, I'm screwed if I finally do file my N400!
That's the "if it's legal where you did it it's fine" exception.

Other problem, though, where drugs are involved is that they start thumbing through the DSM to see if they can hang you on that instead.
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:37 pm   #27
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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That's the "if it's legal where you did it it's fine" exception.

Other problem, though, where drugs are involved is that they start thumbing through the DSM to see if they can hang you on that instead.
Ok Mr FB - what's the DSM when it's at home?
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:39 pm   #28
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

What about alternative orifice relations?

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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:44 pm   #29
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What about anal sex?
Not illegal in all States since 2003
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Old Sep 4th 2008, 8:46 pm   #30
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Default Re: Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude, a broad overview

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Ok Mr FB - what's the DSM when it's at home?
In my opinion it's a collection of bigotry made to look like science. But here's Wikipedia's take: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnos...ntal_Disorders
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