Pulaski

That would presumably the the Comprehensive Reform that has been talked about for the past 30 years.

Mercyknight

Wrong, so wrong, nobody is lying!! I want to go to the USA for short term training that's not part of a degree, explained that over last few posts. Go read.

Taken from travel.state.gov:

enrollment in a short recreational course of study, not for credit toward a degree


Taken directly from embassy site:

If your primary purpose of travel is tourism and during your visit you will engage in a course of study, you may be eligible for a B-2 visa. A B-2 visa is also appropriate if the program is recreational or avocational in nature.

And finally taken from https://travel.state.gov/content/vis...eligious.html:

Certain religious related activities can be undertaken using a visitor (B) visa, such as private worship, prayer, meditation, informal religious study, and attendance at religious services or conferences in the United States. Also, a visitor visa is generally appropriate for ministers of religion seeking to come to the United States temporarily, whose wages and reimbursement will be paid by their own religious group outside the United States, and when coming for:

An evangelical tour, without taking an appointment with any one church; or
Exchanging pulpits temporarily with U.S. counterparts; or
Members performing missionary or voluntary service for a denomination, such as to aid the elderly or needy.
When you have a religious vocation or profession, or are a religious worker coming temporarily to be employed, with your salary paid by a non-profit religious organization in the United States, the visitor visa is not permitted, and you must have a religious worker (R) visa or other work visa.

In fact that first paragraph of the last snippet perfectly describes what I am going to be doing. What I don't understand is, if that's written there, why are most of you saying it will not work?

shiversaint

I've read it all already - what would be the point in contributing to this thread otherwise?

Because you are repeatedly ignoring the bits that do matter, and only reading what you want to see.

I've removed your emphasis and added emphasis to the areas that you are liable to get caught out on.

It is not a short amount of time that you are talking about - this is why you are likely to get denied a B visa because the VWP is available to you. The VWP allows stays of up to 90 days - that gives you an insight in the kind of time frames that are expected on a B visa.

You are talking about effectively moving to the US for a year and manipulating the B visa to enable you to do that. Coupled with that, your assertions on financing (which the kind people on this forum are also thinking about, outside of your visa situation, because the reality is that it is more than just your visa) are close to unethical with children involved.

Even in some absurdly unlikely scenario that you manage to get in front of an consulate officer that hasn't already made a decision (see Ian's post above), you will not be able to explain all of this coherently and consistently. There are just too many holes and you know it.

Pursue the R visa. Many of the people on this forum go to serious lengths to get visas in scenarios where they genuinely have no options. I think you should recognise how lucky you are having such a restriction free visa class available to you that actually has a decent path to a green card.

If you aren't able to get an R visa through your "church" - you need to take it up with them rather than us. I 100% believe that pursuing your endeavours through a B visa could be deemed as fraud if you actually make it - and you won't. The very fact that you are being paid is all you need to know on this matter.

Mercyknight

I'm not getting paid by a US church. I'm being paid and supported by the UK.

And as stated earlier, I could do what I need to do in two short stints, from last day of Jan to May 15th 2018 and Aug 31st to Dec 15th returning home between each of those stints.

So addressing the emphasises you made, I do believe I am reading that info correct. Unless I'm missing something else...

shiversaint

I know what you stated earlier about your "stint" plan. That does not classify as two "short stints" in my opinion, however I accept that is somewhat up to interpretation. Saying that, just recently on this forum a B visa holder was given a very short i94 of 2 or 6 weeks (I forget exactly) as a result of the CBP officer being concerned that he/she was living in the US under the radar. It could well happen to you, as you've been told already. Point 5 on your original post shows you already know that it's going to look like you want to live in the US and don't intend to come back.

I don't think it's a far stretch to conclude that a consular officer or a CBP officer will look at your plans (and eventually history if you succeed - how do you think that'll impact a GC application?) and determine that you were/are attempting to live in the US under a tourist visa, and potentially even worse, gain entry under a tourist visa and then intend to overstay.

So you're not being paid by a US based religious institution - I still don't think that makes things significantly easier. As has been mentioned already you'll be a US tax resident - you will no doubt be asked if you are working in the US - and I suspect given the kind of things churches get upto, it's again not a far stretch for an officer to conclude that you are being rewarded with money in exchange for your activities - A.K.A. work.

You being paid in/from another country does not necessarily preclude you being ineligible on that basis. Even if you think you qualify to the letter of the law, an officer can still decide, with impunity, otherwise.

For the sake of the debate let's sum up what you are going to tell a consular officer about your plans if you don't put that much detail in (and people always tend to run their mouths in the consulate, so you'll give more away than this), with some hypothetical questions that they might ask:

1. What's the purpose of your visit?

"I am participating in a education course as part of my church"

2. Why aren't you using the VWP?

"Because my course is longer than what the VWP allows"

2. How long does it last?

"About a year"

3. How will you support yourself?

"I have some savings and my church in the UK is paying me"

4. I thought you said you were studying - what are they paying you for?

"Yes I'm being paid to study"

5. And you won't be doing any work?

"No"

6. Can you present any evidence of this, course enrollment documentation, tuition fees, class schedule etc?

"No, it's informal"

------

Do you honestly think that isn't going to sound suspicious to someone who is paid to be suspicious?

Just those questions are going to be enough to raise eyebrows. You might then get into the amount of money available to you and whether that's enough to support you and your family - the answer to which is unequivocally no, as tourist life (you're a tourist right?) is always more expensive than resident life, and $3k a month is just enough for a single normal person to survive on in a major city.

Then as already mentioned (which you've not addressed), you've got the implications of health insurance as a tax resident for you and your family - no travel insurance is going to cover you for that long without more questions being asked.

Even despite everything you've said, I'm actually skeptical as to whether what you're planning on doing even qualifies as study - it's part of your job and essentially could be argued is workplace/vocational training that isn't accredited and therefore could probably be classed as work. It's most definitely a grey line, and grey lines rarely end positively when it comes to visas.

By all means make an appointment and apply (given you are very convinced you are right and the multiple people on here are wrong), but I really think you're backing yourself into a corner and setting yourself up for problems.

Like what an insane amount of risk to take, even if you get to the border, where you probably have to explain all of this again (and trust me, CBP officers can be waaaaay more difficult than the ConOffs) that you're going to get a 180 day i94 TWICE in a year, and your whole family relies on it?

Pulaski

That is a very nice summary.

I would emphasize the $3k/mth - nobody in the US, other than those already in poverty, would believe that a family of five is going to survive on $3k/mth anywhere in the US. To put that in context, the CBP officer who will greet you at the airport is earning at least twice that much, and he/she almost certainly thinks that they are not well paid, and if he/she is married or cohabiitng he/she will be glad that their partner is also employed and earning as much again. In other words the Consular official who reviews your visa application and CBP officer at the airport will assume that you and/ or your wife are planning on working in the US. .... And therein is a problem that I hinted at earlier, but you didn't seem to get - the more explanation you provide, the more you dig yourself into a hole.

One bit I don't think MK has commented, and therefore might have not realized the significance of (or maybe he just didn't read it ), is that if he applies for a B-2 and the application is rejected, then he will likely lose all chance of an ESTA for at least 6-12 months, because he will have to disclose a visa denial, and in fact he will have to disclose a visa denial on every ESTA and visa application for the rest of his life.
You will be tax-resident in the US and you will be being paid. Those are the only facts that matter.

shiversaint

Yes yes yes. The latter means the former is almost certainly the outcome.

Denied visa! Why? Applied for a B2 whilst being paid! Why? Didn't listen on the expat forum!

ian-mstm

It's worse than that - his children, who will also have applied for visas, will have a visa denial on their record and must - for the rest of their lives - declare that visa denial any time they wish to use ESTA or apply for any kind of US visa.

I'm sure this is a great opportunity for him, but he may do his children a huge disservice if this goes belly up.

Ian

Fred16

One additional point regarding the children
If the B is denied....go on 10+ years

Eldest wants to travel on their own and has forgot about the denial or was not told

Apply for ESTA and answers "no" to the question
Have you ever been denied a visa......

Then caught in a lie, no matter how innocent that is

Please proceed with caution. People here are giving solid advice

Noorah101

You're misunderstanding the meaning of "short" here, in my opinion. Even when you break it up into 2 visits, each one is still 4 months long. That is not a "short course of study". That's an 8- month long course of study.

Maybe a better idea is for just you, alone, to use the VWP to attend the class for 2 months, once a year, for the next 4 years. That will have a better outcome of success for you.

Trying to bring the whole family over on B visas is not likely to succeed. Do yourself a favor and wait for the church to sponsor an R visa.

Rene

az2014

OP has now posted on Visa Journey with same questions..obviously didnt like the responses on here and wants different ones.

As someone who has a B2 visa..I can tell you it is highly unlikely you will get one with your circumstances.

S Folinsky

You are correct about cross-chargeability. I would add that cross-chargeability is premised on the spouses immigrating together.

BTW, your computation of the odds contains the gamblers' fallacy. "Dice have no memory." The chance of each individual spouse "losing" is 98%. The chance of both spouses losing is 98% squared. Subtract that result from one and you have the chance of one, the other, or both "winning."

Pulaski

Correct, and 0.98 × 0.98 = .9604. Subtract that from 100%, and you get 3.96%. Which is as near to 4% as makes no difference.

FWIW the odds are a little less than 2%, so the aggregate probability of getting a green card in any one year is likely closer to 3.5% than 4%.

Pulaski

After thinking this over, at the back of my mind, I think what you are alluding to is the aggregate probability year on year, which gets further from a simple aggregate of the single year probabilities as the years pass, such that, for example, after 25 years the accumulated probability of success of 2% per annum is not 50%, but is actually only 39.65%, and for a couple (25 years and two applications each year), is not 100% (2% × 50) but is only 63.6%.

Twinkle0927

[QUOTE=Mercyknight;12327629]travel.state.gov:
Certain religious related activities can be undertaken using a visitor (B) visa, such as private worship, prayer, meditation, informal religious study,

What you are proposing doesn't sound very informal. Informal religious study would suggest attending a conference or seminar organized by the church for a few days or so for someone with a passing interest, not someone wanting to work permanently in the field. Similar to the difference between taking a cooking class on holiday to learn how to make a local speciality and enrolling in culinary arts school with the goal of making a lifelong career out of it.

Must be a wealthy small church if they can support a family of five for a year in one of the most expensive countries in the world, including private tutors for the children!
I'm guessing a figure upwards of $250,000 to house, feed, provide a car, educate, provide healthcare, pay utilities, for 5. If you're receiving an income there will be tax to pay on it. Just wondering if your estimates are realistic about the cost of living here.