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Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

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Old Sep 19th 2017, 11:33 am
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Default Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

Hi there,

I've read a few of the posts on here, but am hoping someone will be able to clarify a few things.

Mi fiancée is an American citizen and so in the future it would be good to be able to travel freely to America and potentially live there.

I have a caution for Class A possession received when I was 24, which I know pretty much excludes me from ever holding a Green Card.

My confusion arises from several articles like the ones below, that state that cautions pre-2008 are not automatically taken as admissions of guilt:

[EDIT: I can't post URLs but they are three articles on the distinction between how cautions pre-2008 and thereafter are viewed by US immigration and how pre-2008 they were not considered to be automatic admissions of guilt]

whereas those after 2008 would automatically be viewed as admission of guilt and therefore render the person inadmissible.

My caution dates from 2007, and so I have a few questions.

I would like to travel to the US on a tourist visa. I realise that I do not qualify for a visa waiver and so must apply at the embassy.

It is not inconceivable that in the future we would like to live in the US at some point so...

1. if I go for a tourist visa, would I have to admit that I was guilty in order to receive a waiver? Would that be a condition? I took my caution to avoid having to go to court, was told it was a slap on the wrist and comes off your record after a few years blah blah blah, which of course it doesn't.

2. As my caution is pre-2008, is there any chance of me ever getting immigrant visa/Green Card at any time, or does my caution, no matter when it was issued, forever bar me from that?

3. What would the interview for a non-immigrant visa be like? What questions about the offence would they be likely to ask me? It was ten years ago and I suffered from a serious mental illness at the time (schizophrenia). Would they want to see the police files? I have no idea what I said in interview, I just wanted the whole thing over and due to my illness I was kept in for a long time while an appropriate adult was found.


If anyone could give me any info, that would be great. My worry is that I would be expected to admit/show remorse for the offence (regardless of guilt) in order to obtain a non-imigrant visa and I don't want to render myself ineligible for a Green Card later on down the line (even if my chances are slim).

I can't find anything about cautions pre-2008 for drugs Vs. 2008-onwards on these forums, but from reading on here, the consensus seems to be that it doesn't matter and that a caution for class A is a caution for class A.

However, seeing as my fiancée is American, has family in the States and that one day we will (hopefully) have kids and be probably be visiting America semi-regularly (I hope, as a family), I want to do everything in the correct, legal manner.

Any advice would be really appreciated on how to proceed, what my chances are on getting a non-immigrant visa if I maintain my innocence, and if I would ever qualify for a Green Card.

Sorry for the long post!

Thanks!
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Old Sep 19th 2017, 11:55 am
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

There is a waiver available for a non-immigrant visa, so you could potentially visit. But you will never ever get a Green Card with that conviction.... and a caution is, in fact, a conviction. I do not believe there is any distinction on the date.

Check this thread, which is basically identical
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Old Sep 19th 2017, 12:42 pm
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

Have a consultation with an immigration attorney that specializes in waivers.
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Old Sep 19th 2017, 12:58 pm
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

Originally Posted by Robbo240
1. if I go for a tourist visa, would I have to admit that I was guilty in order to receive a waiver? Would that be a condition? I took my caution to avoid having to go to court, was told it was a slap on the wrist and comes off your record after a few years blah blah blah, which of course it doesn't.
By accepting a caution, you already have admitted you are guilty. If you answer the questions on your DS-160 truthfully, you will be required to furnish an ACPO report which will probably detail this caution. You will end up filling out a VCU-01 detailing the caution

2. As my caution is pre-2008, is there any chance of me ever getting immigrant visa/Green Card at any time, or does my caution, no matter when it was issued, forever bar me from that?
Generally, cautions do not *definitely* render you ineligible as they are not deemed convictions and there are grey lines around how they are viewed. This is solely the case for immigrant visas. You will need a good attorney that understands the waiver process to guide you through this. It's not a final nail in the coffin, despite some of the other advice you have received, however it will be difficult and it seems to be somewhat case by case. I suspect the URLs you mention detailed this and they are correct. Given your mental health scenario, it may be possible for an attorney to argue that you were not aware of what you were admitting. I don't think anyone on this forum can guarantee you an answer regarding the outcome, but based on what I've read, you still have a chance.

3. What would the interview for a non-immigrant visa be like? What questions about the offence would they be likely to ask me? It was ten years ago and I suffered from a serious mental illness at the time (schizophrenia). Would they want to see the police files? I have no idea what I said in interview, I just wanted the whole thing over and due to my illness I was kept in for a long time while an appropriate adult was found.
Generally, provided you have brought everything required of you, it'll be straight forward and the questioning should not be that severe. It is long enough ago where it should not be taken too seriously. You may be asked if you still use drugs etc, but it would be unusual to be asked specifics on the case unless there is doubt around the information you have provided. Sometimes you can be asked for a sworn statement explaining what happened, but that would be requested by DHS and you would proffer it in writing.

My worry is that I would be expected to admit/show remorse for the offence (regardless of guilt) in order to obtain a non-imigrant visa and I don't want to render myself ineligible for a Green Card later on down the line (even if my chances are slim).
You've already said you are guilty, but you can successfully argue that a caution is not a conviction, therefore you are not ineligible for a greencard. People who have argued this before have fallen both sides of the fence, mind you.

EDIT: Further research into the case where the immigrant alien successfully argued their case is in Pazcoguin v. Radcliffe, 292 F.3d 1209 (9th Cir. 2002). The piece in this case that I think is particularly relevant to you is how the BIA determine that an admission of guilt is valid, that is:

BIA case law has established three requirements which must be met for an admission to qualify as having been validly obtained.   First, the admitted conduct must constitute the essential elements of a crime in the jurisdiction where it occurred.   Second, the applicant for admission must have been provided with the definition and essential elements of the crime prior to his admission.   Third, his admission must have been voluntary.   See Matter of K, 7 I & N Dec. 594, 598, 1957 WL 10581 (BIA 1957);  Matter of J, 2 I & N Dec. 285, 1945 WL 5557 (BIA 1945).
I have no idea how OP might argue this case as IANAL, however given the circumstances of your caution, I think it's conceivable you could argue that you were not aware of what you were admitting.

Last edited by shiversaint; Sep 19th 2017 at 1:22 pm. Reason: Further information
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Old Sep 19th 2017, 3:17 pm
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

I am a lawyer, albeit retired. The answers here are not bad at all.

UK cautions are not convictions for US purposes. The question is whether or not they are an " admission." The pre-2008 cautions may or may not be an admission. Outside of the immigration arena, many US criminal jurisdictions allow what are called "Alford pleas." (Here in CA, we call them "People v West," but I digress). This "guilty for a reason even though I didn't do it." By analogy, a caution may be accepted for reasons other than I did it.

From what I see, the inquiry on pre-2008 cautions will be fact specific as to the individual procedures employed in the caution.

Although a NON-immigrant waiver is available, the process for obtaining that waiver can fertilize a permanent immigrant bar.

Given the grey area of the determination plus the "yes-no" aspect of the permanent bar, legal advice and representation is in order. Lawyers may not be bookmakers, but they can improve the chances of a winning bet. [BTW, despite my signature caveat, there is ONE piece of specific advice that I feel safe in giving, when appropriate -- retain a lawyer].

On the rubric of YMMV, it should be noted that the current administration is virulently anti-immigrant. This has been notable since the beginning of the year.

Good luck.

Last edited by S Folinsky; Sep 19th 2017 at 4:44 pm. Reason: amend "no advice" caveat in body of post
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Old Sep 19th 2017, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

Originally Posted by shiversaint
EDIT: Further research into the case where the immigrant alien successfully argued their case is in Pazcoguin v. Radcliffe, 292 F.3d 1209 (9th Cir. 2002). The piece in this case that I think is particularly relevant to you is how the BIA determine that an admission of guilt is valid, that is:



I have no idea how OP might argue this case as IANAL, however given the circumstances of your caution, I think it's conceivable you could argue that you were not aware of what you were admitting.
Google Scholar has the Pazcoquin case.

It should be noted that Pazcoquin LOST. Nonetheless, the case demonstrates some of the complexities. The case was heard by a three-judge panel and generated a dissent.

Also, Pazcoquin was granted a visa, but the inspectors of the former INS refused to admit him and he was ordered excluded. That is the only reason the Court had jurisdiction. The "how cited" link on the case will take one to Rivas v. Napolitano.. If the consulate says no, you are SOL when it comes to judicial review.

British expats has posted an article on the subject written by a London based US immigration firm.
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Old Sep 21st 2017, 9:19 am
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Default Re: Advice Needed Visas/Caution Class A (pre-2008)

First off, thanks to everyone who's replied. Definitely good to hear multiple points of view.

This is one of the original articles, if anyone's interested:

But it’s Only a Police Caution, Right?
September 2, 2014

I have lost count how often I have received a client query regarding their criminal background and the US immigration implications, but they disregard the time they were let off with a caution. It is not surprising that one might think that a caution is not on our record, and even if it is, it’s only a Police Caution, right?

Wrong. A UK caution is not considered to be a conviction, but the applicant should still declare the arrest and caution when applying for a US visa.

When a person commits a minor crime in the UK, the Police or Crown Prosecution Service (“CPS”) can decide whether to “dispose” or take to court. This disposal can amount to a caution, also known as an official warning. It is not a conviction in the UK, but the problem is that it can do down on the individual’s record.

A caution is essentially an admission, even if the individual agrees to receive a caution merely because they do not want to be charged and potentially go through with a court case. Perhaps even the UK Solicitor advised that taking a caution is the best result, but what we need to consider, is whether the “admission” is for a crime involving moral turpitude. This is when we are faced with eligibility issues for the US visa.

The law states that the person must admit to the commission of the essential elements of the crime involving moral turpitude. This must be “…explicit, unequivocal and unqualified.” There must be no doubt that the individual was aware of what they were “admitting” to. All of the circumstances of the admission to a crime involving moral turpitude need to be carefully considered.

The UK Home Office issued guidance in July 2008 requiring that a written explanation of the caution be given prior to accepting a caution. As a result, consular officers acknowledge that the standard of a caution before July 2008 meets entirely different standards whereby the person is not necessarily explicitly confessing to the crime (however seemingly minor) at hand.

The circumstances of an arrest or caution, however, are entirely irrelevant for the purposes of traveling under the Visa Waiver Program (“VWP”), i.e. ESTA. The person may not travel under the VWP and they may even have issues obtaining a B-2 Visitor Visa. This is particularly the case recently, as the US Embassy in London has begun refusing visas for arrests disposed of through cautions. If the visa is denied, the individual then needs to obtain a waiver of inadmissibility, which is a lengthy procedure.

What does this all mean? In a nutshell it means that police cautions issued post 2007 may amount to admissions of guilt. If you are applying for a non-immigrant visa, you may be eligible for a waiver of inadmissibility. If you are applying for an immigrant visa (green-card) then you may be inadmissible without the possibility of a waiver. This is particularly the case for cases involving possession of drugs.

Even the rich and famous may have issues with entering the US with a criminal record, caution, or even a court admission of having “snorted cocaine and smoked cannabis.” Nigella Lawson was prevented from boarding her flight to the US in April 2014. Her US show, The Taste, was at jeopardy.

Don’t try to tackle this on your own. Ensure you hire a competent US Immigration Attorney who can dissect your case and advise you as to the best way to proceed.

I don't have the funds to take anything to court, unfortunately. And it's not a life or death situation for me (I feel really sorry for the DREAMers who really do have a high-stakes immigration battle on their hands).

Originally Posted by S Folinsky
Although a NON-immigrant waiver is available, the process for obtaining that waiver can fertilize a permanent immigrant bar.
This is primarily what I am fearful of. I will consult legal advice. If anyone knows of a good immigration lawyer in UK or Europe, let me know!

I didn't know if, in line with Matter of K, consulate officials would try to get you to admit the offence. This is from another piece on cautions:

Applicants with cautions issued prior to the July 10, 2008 change in procedure may still be found ineligible for a visa if they make an admission to a consular officer in accordance with DOS protocol.
I think my chances of ever getting a Green Card will be virtually nil but equally I would not like to inadvertently make them any worse.

Originally Posted by S Folinsky
On the rubric of YMMV, it should be noted that the current administration is virulently anti-immigrant. This has been notable since the beginning of the year.
I wouldn't be immigrating any time soon, but probably not under the current administration, but if we ever did decide that we wanted to live in the States, or my lady was forced to return for an extended period of time, it's good to know what we'd be up against.

For now a non-immigrant visa would be great, it's just I'm going to need decent legal advice and approach it in the best way.

Originally Posted by shiversaint

Generally, provided you have brought everything required of you, it'll be straight forward and the questioning should not be that severe. It is long enough ago where it should not be taken too seriously. You may be asked if you still use drugs etc, but it would be unusual to be asked specifics on the case unless there is doubt around the information you have provided. Sometimes you can be asked for a sworn statement explaining what happened, but that would be requested by DHS and you would proffer it in writing.
That is reassuring to know. I was worried about the interview but good to know it would be fairly standard. I would want the best chances of being referred for a waiver.
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