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Would you have come to America ...

Would you have come to America ...

Old Jul 12th 2015, 2:02 am
  #61  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by Michael
When I was a kid growing up in the '50s, everyone in the small multi-ethnic village used a name for someone of a different ethnicity. I don't think most knew that was a derogatory term and people of that ethnicity also used the name.

For me and my family, we were referred to as Bohunks and only now do I realize it means "A contemptuous term used to refer to an unskilled or semiskilled foreign-born laborer, especially from east central or southeastern Europe."

Italians were referred to a WOPs or Dagos.

Poles were referred to as Polacks.
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Old Jul 13th 2015, 3:35 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

I moved to Italy without speaking Italian. I was a bit naive maybe, or a wee bit arrogant that I'd pick it all up very quickly. While the big bosses spoke English, all of my colleagues had very limited English so I really had to learn quickly. The company I worked for provided a private teacher twice a week, well, once or twice a month because she always had to cancel...traffic etc...the Italian love of not turning up to anything on time! I thought I spoke pretty good French and some Spanish but learning Italian made me realize the key difference to being truly proficient was that you have to be able to communicate enough to socialize. At dinner for example, or at a bar. A proper conversation, not just ordering and talking about the weather! It took me about 18 months to get to the stage where I could watch TV, socialize and feel like I was integrating.
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Old Jul 14th 2015, 4:43 am
  #63  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

i went to live in germany for a year when i was a student. i had studied german for 1 year beforehand - but i wasnt very good. loved germany but left with still mediocre german as everyone i met wanted to spek to me in English - and the department i worked in was full of mulitnationals so the common language was English.
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Old Jul 14th 2015, 7:47 am
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Most Europeans don't assume their language is the only one worth speaking, and the vast majority of Europeans speak at least 2, and I know some that are fluent in >7< languages (how you achieve that is a mystery to me).

Germans in particular are eager to speak English, and so socially, it's rarely a problem. But as in all countries, professionally, it's vitally important to have fluency in the local language.

Besides, having the benefit of fluency in more than one language facilitates a broader perspective. Culture is heavily imbedded in language. You achieve some very important insights into a culture through its language.

But perhaps the worst thing you can do (even in Germany) is to complain that people don't speak proper English (as if this is the only language worth speaking). That attitude only reinforces the British arrogance stereotype. Especially in latin-speaking societies, who tend to regard English more as a "necessary evil". I hear plenty of complaining from Brits about how [arrogant] Spanish refuse to learn or speak proper English, but rarely (never, really) hear complaining from Spanish about foreigners not speaking "proper" Spanish.

And aside from Mandarin for example, Spanish is still the most common native tongue on the planet. English is the world's 3rd largest native tongue.

And those arrogant yanks, well, you rarely hear them complaining about Brits not speaking "proper" English. In fact, that seems to be solely a British complaint about everyone else.
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Old Jul 16th 2015, 5:43 am
  #65  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by Michael
When I was a kid growing up in the '50s, everyone in the small multi-ethnic village used a name for someone of a different ethnicity. I don't think most knew that was a derogatory term and people of that ethnicity also used the name.

For me and my family, we were referred to as Bohunks and only now do I realize it means "A contemptuous term used to refer to an unskilled or semiskilled foreign-born laborer, especially from east central or southeastern Europe."

Italians were referred to a WOPs or Dagos.

Poles were referred to as Polacks.
Polack is Polish for a male Pole; Polki is Polish for a female Pole.
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Old Jul 16th 2015, 6:10 am
  #66  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by jeepster
Polack is Polish for a male Pole; Polki is Polish for a female Pole.
The noun Polack (/ˈpoʊlɑːk/ or /-læk/; also Pollack, Pollock, Polock), in the contemporary English language, is a derogatory reference to a person of Polish descent. It is an Anglicisation of the Polish language word Polak, which can mean a Polish male person or a person of Polish nationality (feminine being Polka), with a neutral connotation. However, the English loanword "Polack" (note the spelling difference which does not appear in Polish) is considered an ethnic slur in the United States and the United Kingdom, and therefore is considered insulting in nearly all modern usages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polack
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Old Jul 16th 2015, 11:14 am
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by jeepster
Polack is Polish for a male Pole; Polki is Polish for a female Pole.
What about Kaitlinski.
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Old Jul 16th 2015, 9:09 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Before moving here, we lived in the French-speaking part of Switzerland for 3.5 years. I had a French O level from 25 years before, hubby and the kids didn't know any (his American company office was entirely English-speaking).

My French came back pretty quickly, luckily. After a month or so, I was able to separate out the words when someone spoke to me, rather than it all being a string of joined sounds. A few months later, I could go and shop for something without having to spend 15 minutes looking up all the words for 'Please can I buy X/ mail Y', and practicing the sentences out loud as I walked to the shop. (At one point, I clearly got too good at my rehearsed sentences, and delivered them flawlessly enough to get a reply in rapid full-speed native French rather than the slow, easy version people usually spoke for me; I then had to backtrack and explain I hadn't caught a word of what they'd just said).

After a year or so, I was conversationally fluent on day to day stuff - I could do parent teacher conferences, and had made school gate mum friends to whom I only chatted in French. I started to learn things through French rather than just learning French, taking Tae Kwon Do classes a couple of times a week (although the instructions in Korean in the middle of the French took some processing at first). If I wandered past the TV and caught sound of something interesting on the news to tell hubby about later, I was no longer entirely aware which language I'd heard it in; the information had just entered my head.

By the third year, I was doing a fair bit of socializing just in French, and could do group conversations for hours. I found there was a sweet spot for the addition of alcohol, where 1-2 drinks helped my fluency, and 3-4 made it much harder to focus. I would find my mind became like a radio that could be perfectly tuned and focused on clear French, but if my concentration wandered, even a little bit, it was as if the radio had been dutuned, and the French became just a hiss of white noise.

Hubby had lessons 1-2 times a week for a year - during work hours! - as part of his relo, and got to the stage of being able to shop, and communicate with garage mechanics to get the car fixed, with the help of a phrase book and a lot of goodwill for his willingness to sound like a 2 year old. So many English people didn't bother even trying that anyone who did got enormous kudos and had locals falling over themselves to be helpful.

The kids went into the local school and were educated entirely in French during our time there. The 'fluent in 6 months' is a total fantasy, no doubt based on some kids trotting out rote playground sentences in a passably good accent in front of non-French speaking parents. I, though, could hear and understand that their French, and that of other kids who came, took a long time to sound something close to natural and largely error-free. But by the end they were very fluent, trotting out the subjunctive as if born to it, and, in my daughter's case, producing entirely accent-free French with the thick, rolling rural local rhythm (my son, being older, never lost his English accent).

The rate of attrition is shocking, mind you. She was in Switzerland from ages 4-7.5 and within a few months of moving here, had forgotten largely everything. Not even chocolate bribes could get her to remember word meanings.

My son did better, being ages 8-11.5 during his time. He, unlike his sister, was reading and writing the language, and it stuck more. He kept the basics until high school, and was able to skip French 1 altogether and jump in at French 2, where he got effortless As all year Which seems fair, after having 3 years of having to work so much harder than the local kids to even pass the grade level requirements.

With the ease of online translators to get me up and running with forms and admin, I would certainly move to a country where I didn't yet know the language. But I absolutely would not put kids into that country's school system without knowing it - it would be very, very tough on them if I couldn't communicate with their teachers, help read their homework instructions, or talk to their visiting school friends.
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 7:39 am
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by amideislas
Most Europeans don't assume their language is the only one worth speaking, and the vast majority of Europeans speak at least 2, and I know some that are fluent in >7< languages (how you achieve that is a mystery to me).

Germans in particular are eager to speak English, and so socially, it's rarely a problem. But as in all countries, professionally, it's vitally important to have fluency in the local language.

Besides, having the benefit of fluency in more than one language facilitates a broader perspective. Culture is heavily imbedded in language. You achieve some very important insights into a culture through its language.

But perhaps the worst thing you can do (even in Germany) is to complain that people don't speak proper English (as if this is the only language worth speaking). That attitude only reinforces the British arrogance stereotype. Especially in latin-speaking societies, who tend to regard English more as a "necessary evil". I hear plenty of complaining from Brits about how [arrogant] Spanish refuse to learn or speak proper English, but rarely (never, really) hear complaining from Spanish about foreigners not speaking "proper" Spanish.

And aside from Mandarin for example, Spanish is still the most common native tongue on the planet. English is the world's 3rd largest native tongue.

And those arrogant yanks, well, you rarely hear them complaining about Brits not speaking "proper" English. In fact, that seems to be solely a British complaint about everyone else.
That Wikipedia article you link to in the penultimate paragraph looks seriously flawed to me. (Apparently, it is based on a single source, a Swedish ecyclopaedia.)

Just looking at the Spanish and English entries. The article says there are 360 million English speakers, and it lists UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia and NZ as the main countries. What about all the other countries with significant populations, all or some of whom are native English speakers? Jamaica and Barbados are just two examples. South Africa, a proportion of the population are native English speakers. 360 million? That barely covers US, UK, Ireland and Australia never mind the others.

Contrast that to the Spanish section where they seem to be seriously over counting. Surely, in many of the countries listed as being Spanish speaking, Spanish is just a lingua franca ... the native language of a small elite, but a second or third language for many indigenous people. In fact, India and Pakistan could surely be counted in the "English" camp on that basis. I believe in those countries English is a lingua franca spoken by a proportion of the population...
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 12:16 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by robin1234
That Wikipedia article you link to in the penultimate paragraph looks seriously flawed to me. (Apparently, it is based on a single source, a Swedish ecyclopaedia.)

Just looking at the Spanish and English entries. The article says there are 360 million English speakers, and it lists UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia and NZ as the main countries. What about all the other countries with significant populations, all or some of whom are native English speakers? Jamaica and Barbados are just two examples. South Africa, a proportion of the population are native English speakers. 360 million? That barely covers US, UK, Ireland and Australia never mind the others.

Contrast that to the Spanish section where they seem to be seriously over counting. Surely, in many of the countries listed as being Spanish speaking, Spanish is just a lingua franca ... the native language of a small elite, but a second or third language for many indigenous people. In fact, India and Pakistan could surely be counted in the "English" camp on that basis. I believe in those countries English is a lingua franca spoken by a proportion of the population...
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 12:52 pm
  #71  
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by robin1234
360 million? That barely covers US, UK, Ireland and Australia never mind the others.
Right. Isn't there about 700,000 Indians for whom English is either a first or second language? Never mind that a good chunk of Western Europe can speak English to a reasonable (if not very good) standard as a second language also.
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 3:03 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
Right. Isn't there about 700,000 Indians for whom English is either a first or second language? ......
700,000? That significantly less than 1%.

English is the closest thing that India has to a common language, and is widely spoken among the educated classes, accounting, I would guess, for at least 100 million people.
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 3:11 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by Pulaski
700,000? That significantly less than 1%.

English is the closest thing that India has to a common language, and is widely spoken among the educated classes, accounting, I would guess, for at least 100 million people.
Shit, no I meant 700 million . I remember reading it was around 2/3 of the population who can speak it in some shape or form.
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 3:14 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Never mind, I was way off. Your 100 million is much closer to the mark. I don't know what the hell I was remembering.
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Old Jul 17th 2015, 3:16 pm
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Default Re: Would you have come to America ...

Originally Posted by robin1234
That Wikipedia article you link to in the penultimate paragraph looks seriously flawed to me. (Apparently, it is based on a single source, a Swedish ecyclopaedia.)

Just looking at the Spanish and English entries. The article says there are 360 million English speakers, and it lists UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia and NZ as the main countries. What about all the other countries with significant populations, all or some of whom are native English speakers? Jamaica and Barbados are just two examples. South Africa, a proportion of the population are native English speakers. 360 million? That barely covers US, UK, Ireland and Australia never mind the others.
Not even that: US population = 319 million, Canada = 35 million NZ = almost 5 million, and that's pretty much your 360 million right there! Then add on the UK, Ireland, Australia, Jamaica plus a number of other Caribbean islands, so those added in will come to over another hundred million, pushing half a billion at that point.

Then add on parts of the populations of South Africa, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Ghana, Gambia Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Papua New Guinea, Belize, etc. where English is routinely spoken, not just learned as an academic exercise.
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