Hiro11

I think Americans are fairly intolerant of able people who don't pull their own weight. I don't think Americans are unique in this regard.


While the tax benefit certainly doesn't hurt, it's ridiculous to say that Americans are only charitable because there's something in it for them. Your bias is showing.

steveq

I disagree with the op completely, I find the Americans very significantly more compassionate, in the main, to their fellows who have fallen on hard times.

mrken30

That may be because when you fall on hard times in the UK, there can be very little help from public resources. Watching people starve on the streets would not be good for a rich country like the US.(Unless it's Puerto Rico) However it is OK for people not to have access to healthcare or be bankrupted through healthcare.

zzrmark

Scratch below the veneer of wealthy America and you'll find places consistent with living standards in the third world and conditions that should not have existed in the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
Personally, I think, that like most things they do, there's a lot of show and not much substance when it comes to compassion. Is it worse than the UK? Probably not but God forbid anyone hint at it being that way.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...atment-poverty

carcajou

This sounds unhinged. Please get a grip. The US and UK are not third-world countries that just have a "veneer" of being wealthy.

petitefrancaise

I've been following this thread with some interest and been unable to make up my mind about the differences. I think there is not a lot between the two countries.

Both have this underlying assumption that we have to look after ourselves. That being in need of help is somewhat shameful. It is difficult to access help in either country without losing pride.
In the UK, you view yourself as taking something from the State, in the US you have to show your need almost publicly.

My friend, a regular churchgoer, tells me of the amazing stuff that her church/fellow worshippers do with needy families. They all contribute what they can and of course it's tax deductible. BUT at the end of the day, someone had to go begging for help.

I was about to write that in the UK, I've no experience of asking for help in terms of benefits. It's true but the feeling of pride associated with that actually dismays me. As a country how does the UK view citizens who need help? So much for compassion eh?

In France, the attitude is completely different. I'm writing this because I was completely astounded when I realised what a difference it makes. People in France pay a lot towards their social security. They all moan about it. BUT if they ever need help, then it is their RIGHT to get it. No shame. They've paid for it after all. It really is regarded as a kind of insurance to be drawn upon in times of need. People who may find it more difficult to get new work at the same level, pay more to the social security. Strangely enough, that level would be the professional/managerial level. We would have been paid almost near our salary level for up to 2 years before it is reduced right down. I had a job and I paid contributions. When I left that job, I decided to start a company and almost everyone I knew told me that I was entitled to get money for a year to get my business up and running. When I demurred, a few got almost angry with me.

I know people are going to go on about the amount of social security people pay in France compared to the UK and USA but actually, all those tax deductible charitable contributions are really the same thing aren't they? There is definitely an assumption in the USA that you will do your bit.

zzrmark

I didn't say that either were third world countries but there is a very distinct separation in the US between the very poor and the comfortably well off.
Working on some of the trailer parks round here I get to see some shocking standards of living which many folks in our income bracket and upwards have no idea exist because they have no reason/inclination to go into the poorer areas. Not that poverty is hidden in the south, there are many properties by the roadsides that just look uninhabitable but the people sat on the sofas outside indicate otherwise. The only places in Europe that I've seen the same kind of poverty to such an extent are Bulgaria and Moldova, places that don't tend to spring to mind when talking about first world living conditions!!

Steerpike

I agree with you that it is somewhat difficult to decide about the differences. I'm always amazed at the level of discretionary giving that goes on here, but I'm also surprised at the level of callousness that is demonstrated when the subject turns to (eg) food stamps, or more generally any government program / tax. The people seem obsessed with fear that someone will get something they don't deserve, but will fall over backwards to give to a worthy cause.

In my view, the culture here simply dislikes the government being involved in the process, and this seems to fit more generally into the overall mindset of distrusting the government - which is not entirely unhealthy.

Having seen, in UK, entire neighborhoods and generations essentially 'give up' on the idea of working for a living, I can see the pitfalls of a somewhat generous 'welfare state'. Conversely, in the US, I see entire neighborhoods and generations becoming lawless ghettos.

carcajou

Owning your own asset and little piece of land, and contributing to the social welfare system through property taxes (however meagre) is a lot better than renting council housing from the state in perpetuity, is it not?

If you have only seen "that level of poverty" in Moldova and Bulgaria you haven't been looking hard enough (nor do you understand Eastern Europe as it is not the same "level of poverty" at all but much worse there). I see extreme poverty ALL THE TIME in the UK, Italy, and Australia . . . and other first-world countries.

Shard

I think your UK perception depends on which papers you are reading. There are plenty of left leaning people in the UK that see state support of the poor or disadvantaged as a respectable aim. Even the Tories pay lip service to being compassionate.

zzrmark

Agreed to the owning of property versus renting.

I can't think of an occasion I have ever seen any inhabited scabby wooden shacks that look just about ready to fall down in the UK, can't speak for Italy because my budget has never quite stretched that far, some stone built French properties maybe.

Hiro11

"Fairness" and some sort of expectation of personal responsibility seems like an understandable and common human sentiment. Perhaps this is a matter of degrees. Americans as a whole probably value self reliance more than some other countries.


Also, there's a hell of a lot of waste and cronyism in the US government. Check out the scam that is crop insurance. Or Federal disability insurance. Or "green" subsidies. Or "earmarking". Or agricultural subsidies. Or the special tax and anti-trust exemptions afforded pro sports. Etc.

Excellent points. I agree it's difficult to make blanket statements about such a complex topic.

Hiro11

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in any political party in either country that feels that people should suffer, or that poverty shouldn't be dealt with. Yes there are genuine jerks out there, but they're rare. Where the vast, vast majority of people actually differ is on HOW best to address these issues. Just because someone disagrees with you on HOW to best reduce suffering doesn't mean that they lack compassion.


For example, some of us have noticed that the poverty rate in the US is almost unchanged since 1965:
https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what...-united-states
..despite the implementation of Medicare / Medicade, SSI, WIC, Pell Grants, Earned income tax credit, TANF etc, etc, etc and the resulting massive increase in Federal entitlement spending since 1965. Some of us look at that and ask, reasonably, is Federal spending truly the best way to reduce poverty? Questioning this spending isn't lack of compassion.

mrken30

I think there is as much a divide across the different States as there is between the UK and the US. California is very left and has several support networks and attitudes.

dc koop

Maybe Americans believe that the so called "experts" don't always spend our tax money very well. At least here we can have some say in controlling how money is spent at the local level through the ballot initiative system