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Trade Promotion Authority May make H-1B Irrelevant, NAFTA Obsolete

Trade Promotion Authority May make H-1B Irrelevant, NAFTA Obsolete

Old Jun 1st 2001, 8:31 am
  #16  
Philotsopher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Dan" <[email protected]>
[usenetquote2]> >> Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario[/usenetquote2]
won't
[usenetquote2]> >> take into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of[/usenetquote2]
life
[usenetquote2]> >> etc. etc. It's very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing[/usenetquote2]
to
[usenetquote2]> >> work in the US for a fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make -[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> that is the only thing that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >If, for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to stay,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >say he gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >$40.000/year?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >A little shopping around, and he would find that he could double that if he has[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >some experience? Why would he settle for a fraction of what a middle class worker[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >expects to get?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >| Terje A. Bergesen | [email protected] | Santa Monica, CA |[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >| http://terje.bivrost.com/ | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 9:34 am
  #17  
a
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

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As an analogy, consider a dam on a river, damaging the ecology, and someone finds a
way to get rid of the dam, to rescue the ecology, but the resulting flood causes a
lot of wildlife to drown.

Freedom is good, but sudden freedom is not the same thing as stable freedom. We
should get rid of H1B first and then gradually open the gates over a period of years
or decades to avoid major disruptions. Equivalent to lowering the lake before
removing the dam so there won't be a disastrous flood.
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 12:18 pm
  #18  
Kev
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

    >
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Yup you are completely correct. I was one of those assholes that said, "Too bad they
should just find anither job", "what the **** do I care it doesnt affect me", little
did I realize that years later it would affect me! That was the testing ground I
believe for this H1 scam!

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 01:31:19 -0700, "Philotsopher"

    >
    >
[usenetquote2]>> >> Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario[/usenetquote2]
    >
[usenetquote2]>> >> take into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]>> >> etc. etc. It's very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing[/usenetquote2]
    >
[usenetquote2]>> >> work in the US for a fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make -[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> that is the only thing that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >If, for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to stay,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >say he gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >$40.000/year?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >A little shopping around, and he would find that he could double that if he has[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >some experience? Why would he settle for a fraction of what a middle class worker[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >expects to get?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >| Terje A. Bergesen | [email protected] | Santa Monica, CA |[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >| http://terje.bivrost.com/ | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Old Jun 1st 2001, 12:45 pm
  #19  
Arthur Sowers
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----------------------------------------
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Old Jun 1st 2001, 2:15 pm
  #20  
Margaret Bartley
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Posts: n/a
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This is what "President" Bush is calling his fast track authority to negotiate the
Free Trade Area of the Americas.

Another of the pernicious issues in this treaty, which has been being negotiated in
secret for the past five years or so, are provisions for what are called
"investor-to-state" lawsuits. These suits, established through NAFTA's Chapter 11,
give corporations the ability to sue governments over acts that diminish a
corporation's potential future profits.

http://www.globalexchange.org/ftaa/statement040201.html

This is a complete capitulation to corporate greedsters.

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Authority. This
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like agreements
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movement of
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and that will
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unnecessary. These
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will possibly be
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our borders to the
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of labor
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Old Jun 1st 2001, 2:49 pm
  #21  
Terje A. Bergesen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan wrote:
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Do you have the ability to talk without starting a sentence with an insult? Is the
world so hard from behind your white hood?

You apparently have no clue whatsoever about H1B. Why would an H1B person not have
the luxury of shopping around? It is trivial to transfer an H1 from one company to
another, today that process is even easier, since you are now allowed to start
working for the second company while the transfer is being processed.

My question to you then is, if I am a clueless ****face, and I know A LOT more about
H1s than you do, what does that make you?

--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
    >
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:00 pm
  #22  
Philotsopher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Why not just build a big enough dam?

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wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> >This sounds exactly like what so many anti-H-1Bers have been asking for: eliminate[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >the "indentured servitude" and let them compete on an equal footing in the labor[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >market.[/usenetquote2]
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someone
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resulting
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freedom.
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Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:05 pm
  #23  
Terje A. Bergesen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Philotsopher wrote:

...
[usenetquote2]> > Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > If, for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to stay,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > say he gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > $40.000/year?[/usenetquote2]
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That is normal, but an Indian moving to San Jose on, say double of his indian salary,
will starve faster in San Jose than he would in India. The problem is, however, that
as a person who qualifies for an H1B, he has a long and good education already, he is
among the very elite in India, making more money than most.

Why would an indian living in luxury in India move to a small one bedroom
apartment shared with 10 others in San Jose, and keep living there, when he finds
that he can join another company for 10 times the salary? Easily. Transferring H1s
is not magic you know.

    >

I have no idea what your qualifications are, but this IT market is still hungry for
highly qualified IT professionals. If you are such a person, you should be able to
get a job. Where do you live, and what are your qualifications? I mean this a
genuinely conserned interest. If my coming to the US makes life harder for people in
the US, I'd rather not be here. I do not think that is the case though, so I am
staying for now. If I can help, I'm more than willing to give it a try. In the long
run I benefit from as many US citizens working as possible.

...
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They can't. In fact, they will probably reduce their living standards substantially
for the first 4 or 5 years at least. Do rememer who gets to take a long education in
India, we are in general talking about the upper-class kids.

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Abolishing H1Bs will not improve your life, or get you a job. Open borders will
probably improve your life considerably. All theory tells us, and all practical
experiments show that if you open for trade and immigration, both countries
taking part in that exchange will profit. There will be changes, but these are
not bad per se.

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You shouldn't. Not in any way. I do not think anyone that can maintain a polite and
normal discussion is a gutless looser. A person (and you are not such a person) who
opens each of his postings with insults involving excrements, bodyparts below the
beltline and above the knees or activity involving these body- parts, HE is a gutless
looser who will never find a job anywhere more advanced than in "Joes auto-parts and
burning cross building shoppe".

...
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    >

And so do you. The US is BY FAR the richest country in the world, have you ever
wondered why? It has also become progressively richer as it has become more open?
Why? The quality of products and price of the same has come down in face of new
markets, why? How do you benefit?

--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
    >
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:15 pm
  #24  
Terje A. Bergesen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Margaret Bartley wrote:

...
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Who are these corporate greedsters? What do they do? How is the world fairing under
their tyranny?

They are us, you and I. We have our 401K money placed squarely in their corner. Our
jobs depend on them being as greedy as they can possibly be.

They create jobs, some in the US, who has the lowest unemployment in a very long
time. They create products, ever cheaper such, so that we can now buy "stuff" for a
fraction of what it cost in our parents time.

How is the world doing under this tyranny? Well, this corporate globalism has had its
strongest growth since the early '80, and onwards. In 1980 40.000 people died of
starvation every day. In those days there was somewhere around 4B people in the
world. In 1999 20.000 people died every day of starvation, a SUBSTANTIAL reduction.
Most of this reduction comes from increased global trade, hardly any from aid
programs, and some, but extremely little, from population movement. You need to solve
the problems where they are.

What wrong did these corporate greedsters do so that the number of people starving to
death has been halved while the worlds population has increased by almost 50%? Where
is their crime?

In the same time, the difference between rich and poor in the US has increased. This
is a problem, and it is a problem that should be solved. Domestic poverty is
something the US should not have to deal with. There will always be transition
periods, but the current situation is too bad. It can be solved by finding ways to
create jobs in areas where jobs are dissapearing, but one must also realize that some
movement of people will be needed, all areas are not meant to be livable.

--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
    >
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:15 pm
  #25  
Philotsopher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Hello Asshole Terje ****face,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > H1s do not have the luxury of shopping around for a better job. Do you know[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > anything about H1s, you ****ing clueless clown?[/usenetquote2]
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I would like to know Indian's version of the KKK because that's obviously what you
belong to.

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That's a lie and you would know that if you knew the first thing about H-1B.

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What an ass ****ing low life you are to accuse Kev of being a KKK member. After what
you said here, I have to conclude that Kev is a very good judge of character and he
figured you out completely.
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:29 pm
  #26  
Philotsopher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

    >

    >
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[usenetquote2]> > > Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > If, for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > stay, say he gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > $40.000/year?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Hunger is a great motivator. I am willing to take a fraction of my old salaries[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > as my financial situation grows worse.[/usenetquote2]
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I don't know why H-1Bs do this, but they do. Life in India must not be the Garden of
Eden you say it is.

[usenetquote2]> > You see I was replaced by an H-1B and I can't get a job.[/usenetquote2]
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I have talked about my plight many times in the NG. You will have no problem finding
those previous posts.

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[usenetquote2]> > If Indians can double their living standard by taking 1/4 of the salary of an[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > equivalent US worker, they will do it if they are one of the smart ones.[/usenetquote2]
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Getting a Green Card is the real carrot that is dangled in front of them. They are
willing to suffer until they get it.

[usenetquote2]> > I want to abolish H-1B so I can have a life, H-1Bs want open borders so they can[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > have a life. I wish it wasn't a zero sum game, but it is.[/usenetquote2]
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I was replaced by an H-1B so don't tell me that H-1Bs are good for my health,
or wealth.

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Sure, if you are a rich CEO exploiting cheap labor borders are great. If you are an
average worker open borders is a disaster.

[usenetquote2]> > We as Americans must decide whether we are willing to sacrifice our lifestyle to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > help a few arrogant aliens that think we are gutless losers.[/usenetquote2]
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[snipped blah blah blah]
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[usenetquote2]> > The Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) will open our borders permanently so you[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > guys win.[/usenetquote2]
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No, No, No. The wealth you talk about is going to fewer and fewer rich people. That
may make the average wealth greater, but people like me are sinking.

Why? The quality of products
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Hmmm. Let me think. Prices are cheaper. I'm unemployed. Now let's see what I can
afford to buy with no money. ......... WHOOOPEEE ITEMS MADE WITH CHEAP LABOR ARE
CHEAPER .................
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 3:47 pm
  #27  
Kev
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

**** that asshole. We are getting use to these pro H1 tactics. Whenever you get to
close to home they always try to put words in your mouth or do characters
assassinations. I figured this guy out from post one. **** him.

And for the record I cannot be part of the KKK as I am not fully white.

He is killing. A non white KKK member !!!! LOL!!!!!!

Now I have heard everything.

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:15:50 -0700, "Philotsopher"

    >

[usenetquote2]>> Dan wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> > Hello Asshole Terje ****face,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> > H1s do not have the luxury of shopping around for a better job. Do you know[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> > anything about H1s, you ****ing clueless clown?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Do you have the ability to talk without starting a sentence with an insult? Is the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> world so hard from behind your white hood?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
    >
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[usenetquote2]>> You apparently have no clue whatsoever about H1B. Why would an H1B person not have[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> the luxury of shopping around? It is trivial to transfer an H1 from one company to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> another, today that process is even easier, since you are now allowed to start[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> working for the second company while the transfer is being processed.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]>> My question to you then is, if I am a clueless ****face, and I know A LOT more[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> about H1s than you do, what does that make you?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Old Jun 1st 2001, 4:41 pm
  #28  
Philotsopher
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

    >
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[usenetquote2]> > http://www.globalexchange.org/ftaa/statement040201.html[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > This is a complete capitulation to corporate greedsters.[/usenetquote2]
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You must not read the news. Unemployment is spiking up big time.

They create products, ever cheaper such, so
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So we are all jobless, what good is a cheap trinket?

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I'm glad to hear that Ethiopia is now paradise on Earth.

Most of this reduction comes from increased global
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DOW and Microsoft will save the world.

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Since you believe corporate robber barons are saints, I wouldn't be able to convince
you of anything else. You are a true convert.

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It won't be solved by robber barons.

Domestic poverty is something the US should
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I will move to Ethiopia, where paradise awaits.
 
Old Jun 1st 2001, 5:14 pm
  #29  
Dan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Typical arrogant attitude of guests in this country. They claim they know a lot more
than we do, they are better at everything than us and they make more money than us.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:49:47 GMT, "Terje A. Bergesen"

    >
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Hello Asshole Terje ****face,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> H1s do not have the luxury of shopping around for a better job. Do you know[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> anything about H1s, you ****ing clueless clown?[/usenetquote2]
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Old Jun 2nd 2001, 7:26 am
  #30  
Terje A. Bergesen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Philotsopher wrote:

...
[usenetquote2]> > Do you have the ability to talk without starting a sentence with an insult? Is[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > the world so hard from behind your white hood?[/usenetquote2]
    >
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Why? Because I reply to someone who calls me a ****face, and worse? Not once have I
starded with an insult, I have ONLY replied in the same (in actuality, far nicer)
language. I use arguments, and I am ONLY met with insult. How can I assume that such
people have more than about 5 braincells?

[usenetquote2]> > You apparently have no clue whatsoever about H1B. Why would an H1B person not[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > have the luxury of shopping around? It is trivial to transfer an H1 from one[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > company to another, today that process is even easier, since you are now allowed[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to start working for the second company while the transfer is being processed.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
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That is a statement, not backed up by a single argument. It is also completely wrong.
If you have an H1B, and you want to work for another company, if that company is
willing to sponsor an H1B, and most tech companies are, you can change job easily. It
used to take 2-4 weeks in California, now you can change the day they file for an H1
transfer. NO PROBLEM!

[usenetquote2]> > My question to you then is, if I am a clueless ****face, and I know A LOT more[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > about H1s than you do, what does that make you?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
    >
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ONLY because he calls me a ****face and lots of other stuff in each and every
posting. I have ONLY answered back with insult, not once started out with it. Am I
not allowed to answer someone that has no arguments whatsoever, but only insult?

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How did he figure me out? By calling me a ****face from the first posting he
did? Hardly.

--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
    >
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
 

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