Trade Promotion Authority May make H-1B Irrelevant, NAFTA Obsolete
May 31st 2001, 10:05 pm
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Congress is working on a bill called the Trade Promotion Authority. This bill will
give President Bush authority to negotiate NAFTA like agreements that give fast track
work visas to aliens. This free movement of international labor will open our borders
to labor markets and that will render nonimmigrant visas such as H-2A, H-2B, and H-1B
unnecessary. These agreements between the United States and other countries will
possibly be modeled after the NAFTA/TN visa. It will essentially open our borders to
the movement of labor and will eliminate the need for any type of labor
certification.
These agreements are being made because countries that are allowing our companies
into their territory argue that they do not have goods to trade, but they do have
vast supplies of labor. In other words, we can send them our companies if we accept
their workers. They argue that if we were willing to make TN visas available to
Canada, we should be willing to make similar agreements with them. International
companies favor these agreements because they want to be able to send workers
anywhere without immigration reviews and visa hassles.
These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major way:
they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of the country the agreement
was made with. Once these agreements are passed, the American worker will be
powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive to compete with them in the
job market.
Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:
* These trade agreements cannot be revoked
* Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement
* Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements
* Borders will be open for the movement of workers
* Workers will compete for wages and work conditions in an open labor market with
open borders
* There will be no labor certification reviews to insure protection of salaries
and/or work conditions.
* Visas will be issued almost instantly with no questions asked.
* There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the immigration
process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental agencies
Now in case some of you don't see anything wrong with competing with workers from
other countries, remember that you will be competing with nations where salaries are
much lower. For instance:
"For an equivalent salary of one U.S. professional, an organization could hire 9.1
professionals in India. This is slightly better than last year when the ratio was
10.5 : 1." http://www.metricnet.com/analysis2001.pdf
I don't think it's necessary to discuss the horrible salaries that third world
factory workers make, because I'm sure you all have heard about that.
The web version of this text is at: http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/H1BHistory.htm See
2001 and Beyond
Get the Facts on H-1B
H-1B Hall of Shame www.ZaZona.com/ShameH1B
Get the Data on H-1B www.ZaZona.com/LCA-Data
Sign the Petition to Abolish H-1B www.ZaZona.com/H1BPetition
Some important TPA Links:
One of the first changes Mr. Zoellick proposed was to dump the name "fast track,"
which implies -- albeit correctly -- that trade pacts would be subject to a
speedier congressional process than other bills. He has renamed the negotiating
authority "TPA" for "Trade Promotion Authority."
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail...ch/000055.html
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT AT SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS WORKING SESSION Quebec City,
Quebec, Canada And finally, we will sponsor the creation of the new Latin E-business
Fellowship program. This will give young professionals from throughout the Americans
the opportunity to learn about information technology by spending time with United
States companies.
In my first speech to our Congress, I made clear that achieving U.S. trade promotion
authority was among my top priorities. ... We will seek bilateral free trade
agreements with friends and partners, such as the one we aim to complete this year
with Chile. http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ar/summit/opening.htm
To amend the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988 to establish permanent
trade negotiating and trade agreement implementing authority. IN THE SENATE OF THE
UNITED STATES March 22, 2001 http://www.theorator.com/bills107/s599.html
U.S. Trade Representative Zoellick has suggested the possibility of combining the
Jordan Free Trade Agreement, the Bilateral Trade Agreement with Vietnam and the
Andean Trade Preferences Act, among others, into a single bill. Those pacts would
then be bundled with a renewal of trade promotion authority--or fast- track
trade-negotiating authority-- as one trade measure.
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail...ch/000055.html
That legislation, once called "fast track," is now called "trade promotion
authority." It would give Mr. Bush the ability to negotiate an accord and submit it
to Congress for an up or down vote, without amendments - the only way, advocates of
free trade say, to keep the American agricultural or textile industries, or other
groups, from altering negotiated agreements to their advantage.
http://www.prop1.org/nucnews/2001nn/0104nn/010421nn.htm
House Majority Leader Dick Armey called for swift passage of Trade Promotion
Authority and pro-growth tax measures to aid an ailing economy at a speech today
before the Emergency Committee for American Trade (ECAT).
http://freedom.house.gov/library/economics/ecat.asp
Several weeks ago, I introduced legislation to implement the U.S.-Jordan Free Trade
Agreement. The bill is a simple one. It merely gives the President authority to
reduce tariffs with Jordan, outlines rules-of-origin requirements, deals with
safeguards provisions, and eases non-immigrant visa requirements for Jordanian
business people. http://www.jordanembassyus.org/ftasenbaucus.htm
The coalition was also concerned about attempts to implement environmental and labor
standards which restrict trade and result in lost market opportunities, rather than
facilitate it. http://www.wlj.net/editorial/trade_p...thority_on.htm
Bush's Toughest Trade Battle Is Against Congress
http://www.iht.com/articles/18270.html
TRADE PROMOTION AUTHORITY (TPA) http://www.bna.com/current/itr/topt.htm#mh282
Pan-American leaders want to get a sense from Bush at the three-day meeting about
whether he can win support for important trade promotion authority, previously known
as "fast track." http://www.inq7.net/brk/2001/apr/21/afp2.htm
Senate Finance Focuses on Fast Track, Transatlantic Trade Disputes
http://www.tdctrade.com/alert/us0105a.htm
our industry strongly supports extending Trade Promotion Authority to President Bush.
http://www.nvca.org/nvca03_29_01a.html
give President Bush authority to negotiate NAFTA like agreements that give fast track
work visas to aliens. This free movement of international labor will open our borders
to labor markets and that will render nonimmigrant visas such as H-2A, H-2B, and H-1B
unnecessary. These agreements between the United States and other countries will
possibly be modeled after the NAFTA/TN visa. It will essentially open our borders to
the movement of labor and will eliminate the need for any type of labor
certification.
These agreements are being made because countries that are allowing our companies
into their territory argue that they do not have goods to trade, but they do have
vast supplies of labor. In other words, we can send them our companies if we accept
their workers. They argue that if we were willing to make TN visas available to
Canada, we should be willing to make similar agreements with them. International
companies favor these agreements because they want to be able to send workers
anywhere without immigration reviews and visa hassles.
These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major way:
they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of the country the agreement
was made with. Once these agreements are passed, the American worker will be
powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive to compete with them in the
job market.
Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:
* These trade agreements cannot be revoked
* Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement
* Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements
* Borders will be open for the movement of workers
* Workers will compete for wages and work conditions in an open labor market with
open borders
* There will be no labor certification reviews to insure protection of salaries
and/or work conditions.
* Visas will be issued almost instantly with no questions asked.
* There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the immigration
process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental agencies
Now in case some of you don't see anything wrong with competing with workers from
other countries, remember that you will be competing with nations where salaries are
much lower. For instance:
"For an equivalent salary of one U.S. professional, an organization could hire 9.1
professionals in India. This is slightly better than last year when the ratio was
10.5 : 1." http://www.metricnet.com/analysis2001.pdf
I don't think it's necessary to discuss the horrible salaries that third world
factory workers make, because I'm sure you all have heard about that.
The web version of this text is at: http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/H1BHistory.htm See
2001 and Beyond
Get the Facts on H-1B
H-1B Hall of Shame www.ZaZona.com/ShameH1B
Get the Data on H-1B www.ZaZona.com/LCA-Data
Sign the Petition to Abolish H-1B www.ZaZona.com/H1BPetition
Some important TPA Links:
One of the first changes Mr. Zoellick proposed was to dump the name "fast track,"
which implies -- albeit correctly -- that trade pacts would be subject to a
speedier congressional process than other bills. He has renamed the negotiating
authority "TPA" for "Trade Promotion Authority."
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail...ch/000055.html
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT AT SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS WORKING SESSION Quebec City,
Quebec, Canada And finally, we will sponsor the creation of the new Latin E-business
Fellowship program. This will give young professionals from throughout the Americans
the opportunity to learn about information technology by spending time with United
States companies.
In my first speech to our Congress, I made clear that achieving U.S. trade promotion
authority was among my top priorities. ... We will seek bilateral free trade
agreements with friends and partners, such as the one we aim to complete this year
with Chile. http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ar/summit/opening.htm
To amend the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988 to establish permanent
trade negotiating and trade agreement implementing authority. IN THE SENATE OF THE
UNITED STATES March 22, 2001 http://www.theorator.com/bills107/s599.html
U.S. Trade Representative Zoellick has suggested the possibility of combining the
Jordan Free Trade Agreement, the Bilateral Trade Agreement with Vietnam and the
Andean Trade Preferences Act, among others, into a single bill. Those pacts would
then be bundled with a renewal of trade promotion authority--or fast- track
trade-negotiating authority-- as one trade measure.
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail...ch/000055.html
That legislation, once called "fast track," is now called "trade promotion
authority." It would give Mr. Bush the ability to negotiate an accord and submit it
to Congress for an up or down vote, without amendments - the only way, advocates of
free trade say, to keep the American agricultural or textile industries, or other
groups, from altering negotiated agreements to their advantage.
http://www.prop1.org/nucnews/2001nn/0104nn/010421nn.htm
House Majority Leader Dick Armey called for swift passage of Trade Promotion
Authority and pro-growth tax measures to aid an ailing economy at a speech today
before the Emergency Committee for American Trade (ECAT).
http://freedom.house.gov/library/economics/ecat.asp
Several weeks ago, I introduced legislation to implement the U.S.-Jordan Free Trade
Agreement. The bill is a simple one. It merely gives the President authority to
reduce tariffs with Jordan, outlines rules-of-origin requirements, deals with
safeguards provisions, and eases non-immigrant visa requirements for Jordanian
business people. http://www.jordanembassyus.org/ftasenbaucus.htm
The coalition was also concerned about attempts to implement environmental and labor
standards which restrict trade and result in lost market opportunities, rather than
facilitate it. http://www.wlj.net/editorial/trade_p...thority_on.htm
Bush's Toughest Trade Battle Is Against Congress
http://www.iht.com/articles/18270.html
TRADE PROMOTION AUTHORITY (TPA) http://www.bna.com/current/itr/topt.htm#mh282
Pan-American leaders want to get a sense from Bush at the three-day meeting about
whether he can win support for important trade promotion authority, previously known
as "fast track." http://www.inq7.net/brk/2001/apr/21/afp2.htm
Senate Finance Focuses on Fast Track, Transatlantic Trade Disputes
http://www.tdctrade.com/alert/us0105a.htm
our industry strongly supports extending Trade Promotion Authority to President Bush.
http://www.nvca.org/nvca03_29_01a.html
Jun 1st 2001, 2:46 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
This sounds exactly like what so many anti-H-1Bers have been asking for:
eliminate the "indentured servitude" and let them compete on an equal footing in
the labor market.
See additional comments below...
>
>
>
That is no different than any other treaty. A treaty is an agreement/contract
between two countries. There are trade treaties being made all the time between
the US and other countries already, which can not (and should not be able to be)
revoked unilaterally by Congress. This is all outlined in the U.S. Constitution.
It is the Executive branch that has the authority to sign treaties with other
nations, not the legislative branch. This country has been running treaties this
way since 1789.
Once these agreements are passed, the
>
>
That's the way the Constitution was written. Treaties are not determined by the
whim of the public. The Founding Fathers were not stupid enough to let public fads
and panics drive foreign relations.
>
>
>
>
Actually they can be revoked, in the same sense that country can simply ignore an
international treaty it has signed. The US is currently doing this with a few
treaties right now, mostly having to do with environmental issues.
>
See above regarding teh Constitution.
>
The President already has that power vested in him by the U.S. Constitution. The
president has the power to negotiate treaties and conduct international relations,
not the Congress.
>
Borders wthin the United States already are open for the movement of workers. It
hasn't done the U.S. any harm. Does a highly-paid inhabitant of Winnetka, Illinois
have to worry about the cheap labor that can freely immigrate to Illinois from the
poverty-stricken mountains of West Virginia, bringing his wages down to West
Virginia hillbillie levels?
>
market
>
See above.
>
>
See above. Hillbillies that want to move to Winnetka and pull down the wages there
is not subject to any labor certification process to "protect" salaries and work
conditions of inhabitants of Winnetka.
>
Just like if a person wants to leave the hillbillie mountains of West Virginia for
beautiful Winnetka, Illinois.
>
>
agencies
Again, so what?
>
>
workers
>
where
>
Hell, look at the salary differential between the average inhabitant of Barrington
Hills, Illinois and the average mountain hillbillie in the mountains of West
Virginia. Free movement of labor obviously does not mean equal income.
For instance:
>
>
>
when
>
>
>
>
that.
I don't think we have to discuss the horrible salaries earned by the hillbillies
in the mountains of West Virginia. Yet, the free movement of labor within the US
has not pulled all salaries down to that of the crude Appalachian mountain
hillbillie.
Until you can explain why free movement of labor within the state governments of
United States has not resulted in all the bad things you expect from free trade
agreements between the United States and foreign states, you have not explained
why anyone would need to be trepidated by the possibility of these free trade
agreements. I'm curious to see how you opponents of free trade can explain the
wealth and success of the United States, which has acted as a free trade zone for
the 50 states that comprise this country.
eliminate the "indentured servitude" and let them compete on an equal footing in
the labor market.
See additional comments below...
>
>
>
That is no different than any other treaty. A treaty is an agreement/contract
between two countries. There are trade treaties being made all the time between
the US and other countries already, which can not (and should not be able to be)
revoked unilaterally by Congress. This is all outlined in the U.S. Constitution.
It is the Executive branch that has the authority to sign treaties with other
nations, not the legislative branch. This country has been running treaties this
way since 1789.
Once these agreements are passed, the
>
>
That's the way the Constitution was written. Treaties are not determined by the
whim of the public. The Founding Fathers were not stupid enough to let public fads
and panics drive foreign relations.
>
>
>
>
Actually they can be revoked, in the same sense that country can simply ignore an
international treaty it has signed. The US is currently doing this with a few
treaties right now, mostly having to do with environmental issues.
>
See above regarding teh Constitution.
>
The President already has that power vested in him by the U.S. Constitution. The
president has the power to negotiate treaties and conduct international relations,
not the Congress.
>
Borders wthin the United States already are open for the movement of workers. It
hasn't done the U.S. any harm. Does a highly-paid inhabitant of Winnetka, Illinois
have to worry about the cheap labor that can freely immigrate to Illinois from the
poverty-stricken mountains of West Virginia, bringing his wages down to West
Virginia hillbillie levels?
>
market
>
See above.
>
>
See above. Hillbillies that want to move to Winnetka and pull down the wages there
is not subject to any labor certification process to "protect" salaries and work
conditions of inhabitants of Winnetka.
>
Just like if a person wants to leave the hillbillie mountains of West Virginia for
beautiful Winnetka, Illinois.
>
>
agencies
Again, so what?
>
>
workers
>
where
>
Hell, look at the salary differential between the average inhabitant of Barrington
Hills, Illinois and the average mountain hillbillie in the mountains of West
Virginia. Free movement of labor obviously does not mean equal income.
For instance:
>
>
>
when
>
>
>
>
that.
I don't think we have to discuss the horrible salaries earned by the hillbillies
in the mountains of West Virginia. Yet, the free movement of labor within the US
has not pulled all salaries down to that of the crude Appalachian mountain
hillbillie.
Until you can explain why free movement of labor within the state governments of
United States has not resulted in all the bad things you expect from free trade
agreements between the United States and foreign states, you have not explained
why anyone would need to be trepidated by the possibility of these free trade
agreements. I'm curious to see how you opponents of free trade can explain the
wealth and success of the United States, which has acted as a free trade zone for
the 50 states that comprise this country.
Jun 1st 2001, 3:13 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
You are THE dumbest person I've ever known on Usenet. Comparing movement of labor
between states is like comparing apples to oranges. Salaries in the U.S. vs.
cesspools like India are different by as much as TENFOLD. How many states in the U.S.
have salary levels that differ by that much?
You are either VERY stupid or are just a major ASSHOLE!
John "Dumbshit" Jacobson shilled:
>
>
>
>
>
between states is like comparing apples to oranges. Salaries in the U.S. vs.
cesspools like India are different by as much as TENFOLD. How many states in the U.S.
have salary levels that differ by that much?
You are either VERY stupid or are just a major ASSHOLE!
John "Dumbshit" Jacobson shilled:
>
>
>
>
>
Jun 1st 2001, 3:20 am
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jacobson---What are you reading from the Russian Hebrew constitution? The US
Constitution says, Article I, Section 8. The Congress shall have the Power...To
regulate Commerce with foreign Nations,
Article II. Section 2. (The President), by and with Advice and Consent of the Senate,
to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;
John Jacobson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > way: they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of the country the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > agreement was made with.[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]> > American worker will be powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to compete with them in the job market.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > * These trade agreements cannot be revoked[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Borders will be open for the movement of workers[/usenetquote2]
>
>
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>
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>
[usenetquote2]> > * Workers will compete for wages and work conditions in an open labor[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > with open borders[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be no labor certification reviews to insure protection of salaries[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > and/or work conditions.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Visas will be issued almost instantly with no questions asked.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > immigration process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Now in case some of you don't see anything wrong with competing with[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > from other countries, remember that you will be competing with nations[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > salaries are much lower.[/usenetquote2]
>
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>
>
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>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > "For an equivalent salary of one U.S. professional, an organization could hire[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > 9.1 professionals in India. This is slightly better than last year[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > the ratio was 10.5 : 1." http://www.metricnet.com/analysis2001.pdf[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I don't think it's necessary to discuss the horrible salaries that third world[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > factory workers make, because I'm sure you all have heard about[/usenetquote2]
>
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Constitution says, Article I, Section 8. The Congress shall have the Power...To
regulate Commerce with foreign Nations,
Article II. Section 2. (The President), by and with Advice and Consent of the Senate,
to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;
John Jacobson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > way: they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of the country the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > agreement was made with.[/usenetquote2]
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > American worker will be powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to compete with them in the job market.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > * These trade agreements cannot be revoked[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Borders will be open for the movement of workers[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Workers will compete for wages and work conditions in an open labor[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > with open borders[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be no labor certification reviews to insure protection of salaries[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > and/or work conditions.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Visas will be issued almost instantly with no questions asked.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > immigration process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Now in case some of you don't see anything wrong with competing with[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > from other countries, remember that you will be competing with nations[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > salaries are much lower.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > "For an equivalent salary of one U.S. professional, an organization could hire[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > 9.1 professionals in India. This is slightly better than last year[/usenetquote2]
>
[usenetquote2]> > the ratio was 10.5 : 1." http://www.metricnet.com/analysis2001.pdf[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I don't think it's necessary to discuss the horrible salaries that third world[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > factory workers make, because I'm sure you all have heard about[/usenetquote2]
>
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Jun 1st 2001, 3:22 am
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
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I think the the best words to describe JJ are "obstructionist debater" and
"deliberately obtuse". How any ABD PhD in economics could make such a
comparison....but there it is.
>
>
>
>
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>
I think the the best words to describe JJ are "obstructionist debater" and
"deliberately obtuse". How any ABD PhD in economics could make such a
comparison....but there it is.
Jun 1st 2001, 5:41 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
These agreements between the United States and other countries
>
A read of experiences by Canadians taking out TN visas at web sites like
www.grasmick.com will show that this is a very harried proces ...
>
>
This is what Americans are demanding for themselves on business travel ... or as an
excuse to refuse travel or an expatriate assignment.
>
>
NAFTA, and the 1989 US-Canada FTA before it, have six month cancellation clauses for
the participants. They have been brought up in federal election campaigns by the New
Democratic Party ("Labour") which is socialistic and protectionist and by Maude
Barlow of the Council of Canadians, a leftie but buddie of US right wing nationalist
Patrick Buchanan (there don't seem to be right wing nationalist anti-free traders up
north, all on the right are free traders).
>
The inspections described by Canadian on grasmick.com or other Canadian online forums
would testify otherwise.
>
>
Open borders is within the EU, no equivalent elsewhere. Citizens of EU countries can
live and work in any other without a visa, but no vote and no dole. You can be
deported and banned for crimes, though.
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The EU countries, and Canada and the US, are similar to each other and the
expectations of their workers.
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Read Canadians' descriptions of their TN applications at the border. It can be a
mighty grilling most of the time.
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The economy moves faster than a speeding Washington bureaucrat.
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Canadians coming to the US expect at least, and often get more than, the same number
of local dollars in wages. That's what they all proclaim. They're just slower to tell
their friends back home that their cost of living is also in US$ and same in number
of ducats as back home.
See also http://www.canadasbraindrain.com/ ... nobody from up north is looking to the
US for lower wages.
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
>
A read of experiences by Canadians taking out TN visas at web sites like
www.grasmick.com will show that this is a very harried proces ...
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This is what Americans are demanding for themselves on business travel ... or as an
excuse to refuse travel or an expatriate assignment.
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NAFTA, and the 1989 US-Canada FTA before it, have six month cancellation clauses for
the participants. They have been brought up in federal election campaigns by the New
Democratic Party ("Labour") which is socialistic and protectionist and by Maude
Barlow of the Council of Canadians, a leftie but buddie of US right wing nationalist
Patrick Buchanan (there don't seem to be right wing nationalist anti-free traders up
north, all on the right are free traders).
>
The inspections described by Canadian on grasmick.com or other Canadian online forums
would testify otherwise.
>
>
Open borders is within the EU, no equivalent elsewhere. Citizens of EU countries can
live and work in any other without a visa, but no vote and no dole. You can be
deported and banned for crimes, though.
>
>
The EU countries, and Canada and the US, are similar to each other and the
expectations of their workers.
>
Read Canadians' descriptions of their TN applications at the border. It can be a
mighty grilling most of the time.
>
>
The economy moves faster than a speeding Washington bureaucrat.
>
>
>
Canadians coming to the US expect at least, and often get more than, the same number
of local dollars in wages. That's what they all proclaim. They're just slower to tell
their friends back home that their cost of living is also in US$ and same in number
of ducats as back home.
See also http://www.canadasbraindrain.com/ ... nobody from up north is looking to the
US for lower wages.
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
Jun 1st 2001, 5:45 am
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Now in case some of you don't see anything wrong with competing with workers
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This is when you send the economic activity to another location, not when you have
people relocate to the US. Maybe there would be more work sent to places like
India if US managers and senior technologists weren't so reluctant to move outside
of Us borders
- even to Canada.
>
>
What's the local cost of living there?
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
This is when you send the economic activity to another location, not when you have
people relocate to the US. Maybe there would be more work sent to places like
India if US managers and senior technologists weren't so reluctant to move outside
of Us borders
- even to Canada.
>
>
What's the local cost of living there?
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
Jun 1st 2001, 6:25 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
The average salary for a programmer in India is between $2,000 and $5,000 per year
(US Dollars).
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(US Dollars).
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Jun 1st 2001, 6:32 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Okay. And the answer to my question is ... ?
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
>
>
Okay. And the answer to my question is ... ?
--
Gary L. Dare [email protected]
Ripco Internet Services- Chicago
Jun 1st 2001, 7:15 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario won't take into
consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc. etc. It's very
obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the US for a fraction
of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the only thing that is
important here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario won't take into
consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc. etc. It's very
obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the US for a fraction
of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the only thing that is
important here.
>
>
>
>
Jun 1st 2001, 7:16 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
"**** You, John Jacobson" wrote:
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No, he is nowhere near the dumbest person in the world. His arguments are very valid.
Since there is a free-trade and free labor movement in the US, why do not everybody
in the US live in New York and San Jose?
Additionally - yes salaries are lower in India, what does that have to do with the
movement of labor. Living in India cost a fraction of what it does in San Jose. If an
Indian moves to San Jose, do you think he would be satisfied, or indeed could
survive, on an Indian salary?
--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
>
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
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>
>
No, he is nowhere near the dumbest person in the world. His arguments are very valid.
Since there is a free-trade and free labor movement in the US, why do not everybody
in the US live in New York and San Jose?
Additionally - yes salaries are lower in India, what does that have to do with the
movement of labor. Living in India cost a fraction of what it does in San Jose. If an
Indian moves to San Jose, do you think he would be satisfied, or indeed could
survive, on an Indian salary?
--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
>
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
Jun 1st 2001, 7:23 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Philotsopher wrote:
...
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Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid. If,
for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to stay, say he
gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say $40.000/year?
A little shopping around, and he would find that he could double that if he has
some experience? Why would he settle for a fraction of what a middle class worker
expects to get?
--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
>
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
...
>
>
>
>
>
Why is that perfectly obvious? If he did he would have to be remarkably stupid. If,
for example, he works in San Jose, and will need to pay for a place to stay, say he
gets it cheap at $1700/month. Why would he ba satisfied with say $40.000/year?
A little shopping around, and he would find that he could double that if he has
some experience? Why would he settle for a fraction of what a middle class worker
expects to get?
--
+------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
>
[usenetquote2]| | Living it, loving it | http://ingrid.bivrost.com/ |[/usenetquote2]
Jun 1st 2001, 7:28 am
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
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You are right that a lot of people say "just give everybody a Green Card and the
problems of worker replacement will be solved." The logic is wrong because the flood
of workers into the US will guarantee that employers have total control of salaries.
Opening the borders will force Americans to accept the worldwide average living
standard, and that is miserable indeed.
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > way: they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of[/usenetquote2]
the
[usenetquote2]> > country the agreement was made with.[/usenetquote2]
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not
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all
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>
>
That means we better think very seriously about whether we want an anti labor,
corporate owned president to make trade agreements that are almost impossible
to revoke.
>
[usenetquote2]> > American worker will be powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to compete with them in the job market.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
determined
>
>
>
These corporate shills in Congress are supposed to work for us, DAMMIT - WHERE'S OUR
REPRESENTATION?!?
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > * These trade agreements cannot be revoked[/usenetquote2]
>
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simply
>
>
>
As horrible as H-1B is, we cannot get rid of it. These visas will never be revoked as
long as the globalists have their say. Unfortunately, the globalists have the power
and money to make these agreements a done deal.
AMERICAN WORKERS ARE GOING TO GET THE WORSE ASS ****ING IMAGINABLE!
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements[/usenetquote2]
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>
>
conduct
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>
Congress is giving up power by allowing Bush to write the treaty and saying that
Congress only has an Up or Down Vote. They are giving their constitutional
powers away.
[usenetquote2]> > * Borders will be open for the movement of workers[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
of
>
>
Virginia,
>
>
This is so stupid it almost doesn't deserve comment. To say that a few coal miners
and farmers could have as much effect as the populations of all South America,
Mexico, India, and China is, let's just say, one of the silliest statements ever made
by Jacobshill. That proves once and for all that you never got a degree in economics.
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > immigration process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
It's no big deal to get rid of worker protections if you are a rich CEO, in fact,
that's exactly what you want.
[snipped all the Hillbilly stupidity that no economist in his right mind would ever
sign his name to]
>
>
>
>
the
>
>
>
comprise
>
>
If the answer isn't obvious to you, than you are actually dumber than I ever
thought you were. Read my previous posts where I explained how most slugs have more
neurons than you.
>
>
>
You are right that a lot of people say "just give everybody a Green Card and the
problems of worker replacement will be solved." The logic is wrong because the flood
of workers into the US will guarantee that employers have total control of salaries.
Opening the borders will force Americans to accept the worldwide average living
standard, and that is miserable indeed.
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > These trade bills are unique from other types of immigration laws in one major[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > way: they cannot be repealed by congress without the consent of[/usenetquote2]
the
[usenetquote2]> > country the agreement was made with.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
not
>
all
>
>
>
>
That means we better think very seriously about whether we want an anti labor,
corporate owned president to make trade agreements that are almost impossible
to revoke.
>
[usenetquote2]> > American worker will be powerless to stop the flood of workers that will arrive[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to compete with them in the job market.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
determined
>
>
>
These corporate shills in Congress are supposed to work for us, DAMMIT - WHERE'S OUR
REPRESENTATION?!?
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Some of the important aspects of the Trade Promotion Authority are:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > * These trade agreements cannot be revoked[/usenetquote2]
>
>
simply
>
>
>
As horrible as H-1B is, we cannot get rid of it. These visas will never be revoked as
long as the globalists have their say. Unfortunately, the globalists have the power
and money to make these agreements a done deal.
AMERICAN WORKERS ARE GOING TO GET THE WORSE ASS ****ING IMAGINABLE!
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will only have a Yes or No vote for each agreement[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > * Congress will give the President the power to negotiate agreements[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
conduct
>
>
Congress is giving up power by allowing Bush to write the treaty and saying that
Congress only has an Up or Down Vote. They are giving their constitutional
powers away.
[usenetquote2]> > * Borders will be open for the movement of workers[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
of
>
>
Virginia,
>
>
This is so stupid it almost doesn't deserve comment. To say that a few coal miners
and farmers could have as much effect as the populations of all South America,
Mexico, India, and China is, let's just say, one of the silliest statements ever made
by Jacobshill. That proves once and for all that you never got a degree in economics.
>
[usenetquote2]> > * There will be only a minimal amount of documentation or review of the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > immigration process required by the DOL, INS or other governmental[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
It's no big deal to get rid of worker protections if you are a rich CEO, in fact,
that's exactly what you want.
[snipped all the Hillbilly stupidity that no economist in his right mind would ever
sign his name to]
>
>
>
>
the
>
>
>
comprise
>
>
If the answer isn't obvious to you, than you are actually dumber than I ever
thought you were. Read my previous posts where I explained how most slugs have more
neurons than you.
Jun 1st 2001, 7:54 am
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hello Asshole Terje ****face,
H1s do not have the luxury of shopping around for a better job. Do you know anything
about H1s, you ****ing clueless clown?
On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:23:08 GMT, "Terje A. Bergesen"
>
>
>
[usenetquote2]>> Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario won't take[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc. etc. It's[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the US for a[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the only thing[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
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H1s do not have the luxury of shopping around for a better job. Do you know anything
about H1s, you ****ing clueless clown?
On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:23:08 GMT, "Terje A. Bergesen"
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[usenetquote2]>> Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario won't take[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc. etc. It's[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the US for a[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the only thing[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
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Jun 1st 2001, 8:26 am
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
>
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[usenetquote2]> > Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario[/usenetquote2]
won't
[usenetquote2]> > take into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > etc. It's very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > US for a fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > only thing that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
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Hunger is a great motivator. I am willing to take a fraction of my old salaries as my
financial situation grows worse. You see I was replaced by an H-1B and I can't get a
job. I would think than Indians get hungry also, right? We all do what we have to in
order to survive. If Indians can double their living standard by taking 1/4 of the
salary of an equivalent US worker, they will do it if they are one of the smart ones.
I want to abolish H-1B so I can have a life, H-1Bs want open borders so they can have
a life. I wish it wasn't a zero sum game, but it is.
We as Americans must decide whether we are willing to sacrifice our lifestyle to help
a few arrogant aliens that think we are gutless losers. I'm simply not willing to
make that sacrifice. Fortunately for your side, most US workers don't understand that
they are your allies by sleeping through the entire scandal.
The Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) will open our borders permanently so you guys
win. Opposition groups will be powerless to stop the globalization of labor, but that
doesn't mean I have to take this beating from you guys and be silent. I intend on
letting as many Americans as possible know why their lifestyles will never be the
same with H-1B, NAFTA, TPA, or whatever.
>
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>
>
>
[usenetquote2]> > Your question is mostly irrelevant because this open border scenario[/usenetquote2]
won't
[usenetquote2]> > take into consideration exchange rates, work conditions, quality of life etc.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > etc. It's very obvious that an Indian would be perfectly willing to work in the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > US for a fraction of what a middle class worker expects to make - that is the[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > only thing that is important here.[/usenetquote2]
>
>
>
>
>
Hunger is a great motivator. I am willing to take a fraction of my old salaries as my
financial situation grows worse. You see I was replaced by an H-1B and I can't get a
job. I would think than Indians get hungry also, right? We all do what we have to in
order to survive. If Indians can double their living standard by taking 1/4 of the
salary of an equivalent US worker, they will do it if they are one of the smart ones.
I want to abolish H-1B so I can have a life, H-1Bs want open borders so they can have
a life. I wish it wasn't a zero sum game, but it is.
We as Americans must decide whether we are willing to sacrifice our lifestyle to help
a few arrogant aliens that think we are gutless losers. I'm simply not willing to
make that sacrifice. Fortunately for your side, most US workers don't understand that
they are your allies by sleeping through the entire scandal.
The Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) will open our borders permanently so you guys
win. Opposition groups will be powerless to stop the globalization of labor, but that
doesn't mean I have to take this beating from you guys and be silent. I intend on
letting as many Americans as possible know why their lifestyles will never be the
same with H-1B, NAFTA, TPA, or whatever.
>
>
>