meauxna

I thought the penalty was *much* worse than that?
Not taking a gun or ammo into Mexico was something I heard about from a very early age.


I try to always make point of bringing that up.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

LOL on the early bird specials -- I know exactly what you mean!

A curious legal mind wonders [and doesn't know the answer] -- on the fact situation you mentioned, assume that the shooter missed his intended target and killed another customer in the restaurant?

A further "suppose" -- the shooter hit the bad guy and in a reflex he pulled the trigger on the shot-gun and did in a third person?

FWIW, this is how the "Socratic method" of teaching the law in American law schools. I put "suppose" in quotes, because the past year notes on my Crim Law Professor [the late Rollin Perkins] were called "supposes" because every question started with the word "suppose." I'm well aware that such inquiry tends to bug non-lawyers a lot -- but it is ingrained in us legal types from our education.

Bill_S

I've always been genuinely curious about whether or not pulling the trigger "on reflex" happens in the real world. I've seen it in the movies, but I don't know if there's any way of knowing how often it happens for real.

paul1968mcr

To remove any doubt as to what will happen should you become involved in a fatal self defence shooting, I'd HIGHLY recommend the book Miss Penguin referred to earlier.

In the gravest extreme, the role of the firearm in personal protection - massad ayoob.

paul1968mcr

A landlord was horrified when his tennant was victimised - raped by a convicted sex offender. In addition to repairing a damaged window and installing security devices, the landlord bought the tenant a shotgun. Just a week later, as Police prepared to file charges against the rapist, he returned to the scene of the crime. Likely angry his victim had gone to the authorities, the rapist cut the power to the house and crashed through the basement door. But the woman inside was not about to be a victim again. She fired her shotgun for the first time, killing her rapist. "I'm glad I had something to protect me," the woman said. (Southeast Missourian, Cape Girardeau, MO, 11/01/08)

One story on a page called "the armed citizen" in American Rifleman magazine.

paul1968mcr

massads opinion.
a shot aimed at a criminal will be justifiable or excusable if it hits an innocent party, but pay particular attention to the mention of negligence as a factor in unitentional homicide. If it can be proved you were negligent or reckless in firing the wild shot, you liable for damages and conviction.
The same applies if you engage a robber lets say in a bank, then follow him outside, you "set the stage" and could be liable for any injuries outside, where you took the fight.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

As you know, the stiffness of triggers can vary from firearm to firearm. A body blow can cause a muscle to contract and if it happens to pull the "right" tendon ... However, it is a fair question.

However, I do find the "right to stand" provisions interesting. On the "rules of engagement" discussion, there was no "retreat" from that closet. And what degree of "standing" is required? This can be quite fact dependent.

crg

It happens, but proper training can overcome the problem. You're not supposed to have your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire.

If you are startled, slip or grab onto something or someone with the empty hand, it's possible that you'll have a sympathetic reflex with the other hand and squeeze the trigger.

http://www.danzanryu.com/interlimb.html

Bill_S

Oh, I know that. I was referring to the perp-with-gun-pulling-trigger-when-hit scenario... many things can cause reflexive muscle contration, and I'm wondering how often a bad guy reflexively fires a round after being hit by cop (or armed citizen). Certainly it's possible, but it's a hard thing to gather data on.

NC Penguin

I think she's more interested in your cannon balls.

NC Penguin

The aforementioned book should be mandatory reading for anyone who is considering owning a firearm and is especially relevant for those who wish to conceal/open carry (as appropriate per individual state laws).

NC Penguin

IMO one's finger should not be on the trigger unless one intends to shoot. No ifs or buts about it.

Bob

yeah, but if your some dodgy robber I don't think your going to care much are you...

meauxna

I was taught that that was The Law. And that you should never point it at someone unless you intend to shoot them. And that you should never shoot at someone unless you intend to kill.
Narrowed down gun use pretty clearly to me.

paul1968mcr

If miss Penguin was a supreme justice we'd all be livin in a much safer place