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Restrictions on travel

Restrictions on travel

Old Jan 18th 2017, 3:43 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by Anian
Can't we just force people into accepting unhealthy dangerous jobs digging up a substance that is unhealthy and environmentally damaging?
Potatoes?
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 4:42 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
That's always a pretty obvious omission, isn't it?

If one is having trouble finding a job, I'm not sure exactly where they're supposed to find the funds to up sticks and move house as well. We're only just now 'right side up' on our house, we have a reasonable amount of savings, and we're in no position financially to just decide to move to another state, no matter how much I might want to bugger off to California or the Southwest. I can't imagine what the situation would be for the unemployed, who are either renting with no equity or who are upside down on their mortgage.
It is one important factor that is left out..
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by morpeth
If a family relying on low wage jobs, without any savings, or time to get re-trained for skills in demand in California, and hit with high medical bills, etc. how would you expect a family to move- then have money for deposit and first months rent ? It isn't just factories closing, but stagnant real wages and increased medical costs that hit many families hard.

The solution you mention is "obvious" for someone who has the means. This wonderful empathy exhibited for fellow citizens/residents explains much about the recent election results.

I have met families who thought of moving to parts of Texas or California, or even North Carolina who simply financially are unable to do so. Any young person I have met in Midwest I always tell them to move while they are able to.
My posts were aimed at the young in the Midwest, mainly those who don't have a university degree. Get out while they can and head either north east or out west. The alternative of course is to stay and end up working in the local Walmart, fast food chain outlet, Sears or Penny as stock clerks or cleaning motel rooms, that's if they have the ambition to make the move of course or just prefer to live on unemployment or whatever.

There are plenty of dead end jobs here in California also but there are also plenty of further education schools where new skills can be learned and jobs open for those who qualify even if they're entry level to start with.

I do feel sorry for anyone whose stuck with a mortgage, family obligations and a low paying job in that part of the US. I've heard that there are towns that are in their death throes. I couldn't blame them if they voted for Trump, the latest in a line of Presidents elect who mouth the same promises about creating more jobs, rebuilding the infrastructure, attracting new investments to those areas and so on and blah blah blah.

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Old Jan 18th 2017, 9:17 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by dc koop
Savers aren't losers and this isn't 1929. Whatever happens on Wall street it wont come to another 1929.
Yet another article saying it could be 1929 all over again, but from a different perspective.

Trump Could Go Down As The Worst President... (But It Will Not Be His Fault) | Zero Hedge
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 10:30 am
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by Anian
Can't we just force people into accepting unhealthy dangerous jobs digging up a substance that is unhealthy and environmentally damaging?
Or maybe allow people who wish to be miners to do so, remove excessive regulation and produce decent union jobs.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 10:41 am
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by Leslie
What is the alternative? Whenever we suggest retraining --- everybody freaks out and says that's not fair either.

Permanent welfare? Guess what folks, if we give permanent welfare to white people in the Midwest then we need to also give it to black people in poor areas. We tried that and everybody lost their ****ing minds over "welfare queens" and "big black bucks" ... ffs.
Good post.

Re-training hardly a short or even on some cases medium term answer.

But I think a negative income tax, eliminating layers of bureaucracy in dispensing benefits, forced reduction in medical costs, and measures to drastically improve the environment for business would be an excellent grand compromise.

Damn politicians of both parties passed the laws that are largely responsible for much of the situation in the inner cities and Midwest.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 10:57 am
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by dc koop
My posts were aimed at the young in the Midwest, mainly those who don't have a university degree. Get out while they can and head either north east or out west. The alternative of course is to stay and end up working in the local Walmart, fast food chain outlet, Sears or Penny as stock clerks or cleaning motel rooms, that's if they have the ambition to make the move of course or just prefer to live on unemployment or whatever.

There are plenty of dead end jobs here in California also but there are also plenty of further education schools where new skills can be learned and jobs open for those who qualify even if they're entry level to start with.

I do feel sorry for anyone whose stuck with a mortgage, family obligations and a low paying job in that part of the US. I've heard that there are towns that are in their death throes. I couldn't blame them if they voted for Trump, the latest in a line of Presidents elect who mouth the same promises about creating more jobs, rebuilding the infrastructure, attracting new investments to those areas and so on and blah blah blah.
I think the statistics don't show how bad situation is in some areas unless you actually see it. There are towns in Ohio and Indiana I have seen that have shop after shop closed, buildings following apart, heroin addiction spreading, and jobs offered that are full time yet one would still qualify for food stamps. 50% of the cost of hiring a lower skilled worker in a factory can be from medical cost let alone taxes, so easier for factories often to hire temporary workers with no benefits- so they make too much for Medicaid, cant afford Obamacare or private insurance. Really insane that American accepts the situation in the inner cities and parts of the Midwest. Or those who are better-off have so little real empathy for their fellow citizens.

Politicians of both parties just don't get it.

Last edited by morpeth; Jan 19th 2017 at 11:14 am.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 4:02 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by morpeth
Or maybe allow people who wish to be miners to do so, remove excessive regulation and produce decent union jobs.
Yeh, mine regulations are for cissys:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.851e1e7a7991
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by morpeth
I think the statistics don't show how bad situation is in some areas unless you actually see it. There are towns in Ohio and Indiana I have seen that have shop after shop closed, buildings following apart, heroin addiction spreading, and jobs offered that are full time yet one would still qualify for food stamps. 50% of the cost of hiring a lower skilled worker in a factory can be from medical cost let alone taxes, so easier for factories often to hire temporary workers with no benefits- so they make too much for Medicaid, cant afford Obamacare or private insurance. Really insane that American accepts the situation in the inner cities and parts of the Midwest. Or those who are better-off have so little real empathy for their fellow citizens.

Politicians of both parties just don't get it.
Do you believe or not that there is a lack of work ethic amongst a proportion of the younger American working age population?

Yes the traditional town main streets with small businesses are disappearing and I've also seen blighted areas that were once hubs of social life.
The buying habits and attitudes of people have something to do with this. It's far easier to drive a few miles to a giant shopping mall where everything can be bought on a single trip, eat lunch and if time allows see a movie in a 10 theatre movie complex. People are impatient these days. They want service and convenience at their finger tips, people text, they don't stop in for a chat with a local tradesman. Have you been in a bar lately and seen people chatting to each other? Or instead gaping at a football or baseball game on a giant TV screen?

Our society like that the world over has undergone a change beyond belief in the past 30 years and automation is also eliminating a lot of unskilled jobs which is why Donald Trump's claim that he can bring back "millions' of jobs to America holds absolutely no water at all.

I don't know which way it's going or how it will all end up. One thing I do believe is that the government need to invest trillions of dollars in education in the coming years. Kids who graduate from high school with 4.0 GPAs and go on to universities shouldn't have to face huge debts upon leaving college.
Bernie Sanders said this during his election campaign and never a truer word was spoken. There should be a program on the same level as that of the post war Marshall Plan on providing debt free education to America's brightest. No one should be denied a college education because they cant afford it Our whole survival as a first world, democratic nation depends on it.

While many jobs are disappearing many new jobs are also appearing which demand special skills and the education to do them. If Washington could get it's act together and stop the endless inter party bickering but focus on education and direction towards the young learning the skills needed for these new jobs it would be a good start. Will it happen? Hardly I think. The GOP are now in the position of absolute power and "small government" is the answer to everything as far as they're concerned

Last edited by dc koop; Jan 19th 2017 at 4:47 pm.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 4:55 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by mrken30
Yet another article saying it could be 1929 all over again, but from a different perspective.

Trump Could Go Down As The Worst President... (But It Will Not Be His Fault) | Zero Hedge
Whatever kind of President Trump turns out to be he wont bring down Wall Street. The whole economic structure today bears no resemblance to that of 1929
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Old Jan 20th 2017, 10:17 am
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
Yeh, mine regulations are for cissys:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.851e1e7a7991
If for some reason you believe the regulations and their methods enforcement are generally done in such a manner to focus on efficient focus on real safety efforts your are sadly mistaken- and I am unsure why the livelihood of miners should be taken away from them because of attitude of those who are quite comfortable elsewhere, as opposed to local communities making their own decisions.

First, coal mining is inherently dangerous, but regulations prompted by coal mining disasters are uniformly applied across different sectors of mining industry with no regard as to the importance of differentiating type of operation. In the last 12 years mine safety inspectors are under tremendous pressure to increase the number of violations cited, and the fees gained, which reduces their focus on key safety hazards. Why ? Because Congress wants to show they are "doing something", and also past 8 years deliberate efforts by administration, and last 20 years by EPA to shut down as much mining as they can.

Second, the case you cited I don't know particulars, but from a few people I have spoken to ( including a former commissioner of coal mines in a nearby state) he deserved some degree of punishment, though they questioned whether safety inspectors if they had been under less pressure to increase the number of citations whether they could have identified key problems earlier in that mine.

The number of citations alone is meaningless, company can be fined $1,000 for leaving off a lid of a trash can above-ground
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Old Jan 21st 2017, 8:06 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by morpeth
If for some reason you believe the regulations and their methods enforcement are generally done in such a manner to focus on efficient focus on real safety efforts your are sadly mistaken- and I am unsure why the livelihood of miners should be taken away from them because of attitude of those who are quite comfortable elsewhere, as opposed to local communities making their own decisions.
A predictable response from someone of your ilk. The regulations are there to protect the health and lives of miners, many more of whom either were seriously injured or died prior to their existence.

Originally Posted by morpeth
First, coal mining is inherently dangerous, but regulations prompted by coal mining disasters are uniformly applied across different sectors of mining industry with no regard as to the importance of differentiating type of operation. In the last 12 years mine safety inspectors are under tremendous pressure to increase the number of violations cited, and the fees gained, which reduces their focus on key safety hazards. Why ? Because Congress wants to show they are "doing something", and also past 8 years deliberate efforts by administration, and last 20 years by EPA to shut down as much mining as they can.
Care to back up that assertion with something other than your "normal" anecdotes?

Originally Posted by morpeth
Second, the case you cited I don't know particulars, but from a few people I have spoken to ( including a former commissioner of coal mines in a nearby state) he deserved some degree of punishment, though they questioned whether safety inspectors if they had been under less pressure to increase the number of citations whether they could have identified key problems earlier in that mine.

The number of citations alone is meaningless, company can be fined $1,000 for leaving off a lid of a trash can above-ground
The number of citations may be meaningless, but let's actually see what this guy was doing:

"Three miners have died there since 1998, and the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration cited Upper Big Branch for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday, proposing $1.89 million in fines, according to federal records."

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that those miners didn't die because of a lid missing off a trash can.

"t is not unusual for a mine to receive a substantial number of citations, she said, but the recent violations involving the mine's ventilation system are a red flag. It's a signal that something is not right there, something is going wrong at that mine."

oh...

"Officials have the authority to shutter a mine under federal law if they find "a history of repeated and significant and substantial violations," but safety citations have rarely, if ever, led federal officials to order the closure of a mine.

One reason, those officials said Tuesday, is that companies can contest citations and fines proposed by the government, which delays their effect.

The company has contested nearly a third of the violations it has received since 2005, focusing on those carrying the costliest penalties. Its appeals have held up about $1.3 million in proposed penalties for the violations, records show."

"Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.) suggested that investigators look at how mining companies have drawn out the appeals process, noting that the process could potentially delay closing unsafe mines for years."

Sounds to me that the regulations actually need to be tougher than they were at this point, to stop criminally negligent mining companies from spinning out the appeals process rather than actually fixing potentially lethal safety hazards.

But, yeh, "lid off a trash can" .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...html?tid=a_inl

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...news&tid=a_inl

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Old Jan 22nd 2017, 10:48 pm
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by dc koop

Our society like that the world over has undergone a change beyond belief in the past 30 years and automation is also eliminating a lot of unskilled jobs which is why Donald Trump's claim that he can bring back "millions' of jobs to America holds absolutely no water at all.

I don't know which way it's going or how it will all end up. One thing I do believe is that the government need to invest trillions of dollars in education in the coming years. Kids who graduate from high school with 4.0 GPAs and go on to universities shouldn't have to face huge debts upon leaving college.
Bernie Sanders said this during his election campaign and never a truer word was spoken. There should be a program on the same level as that of the post war Marshall Plan on providing debt free education to America's brightest. No one should be denied a college education because they cant afford it Our whole survival as a first world, democratic nation depends on it.
Who is going to pay for this education? From memory I vaguely remember there was a 95% tax bracket in the time of free education, I'm sure that won't go down too well.

China and India and throwing lots of money into education while the West is taking it away.

Education and innovation are the way to make an economy thrive in todays world , or use cheap labor and have minimal employment and environmental laws.

The whole economy is quite unbalanced at the moment. There has never been a time in history that Governments have printed so much money, been such disparity in wealth, unafforable housing and zero percent interest rates.
Yes inflation is very low, but is there a ticking time bomb waiting to happen?
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 12:31 am
  #194  
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by mrken30
Who is going to pay for this education? From memory I vaguely remember there was a 95% tax bracket in the time of free education, I'm sure that won't go down too well.

China and India and throwing lots of money into education while the West is taking it away.

Education and innovation are the way to make an economy thrive in todays world , or use cheap labor and have minimal employment and environmental laws.

The whole economy is quite unbalanced at the moment. There has never been a time in history that Governments have printed so much money, been such disparity in wealth, unafforable housing and zero percent interest rates.
Yes inflation is very low, but is there a ticking time bomb waiting to happen?
Their rise and our demise in a nutshell. American schools for one reason or another seem to be closed for half the year. It's a wonder they manage to learn anything

Last edited by dc koop; Jan 23rd 2017 at 12:41 am.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 11:43 am
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Default Re: Restrictions on travel

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
A predictable response from someone of your ilk. The regulations are there to protect the health and lives of miners, many more of whom either were seriously injured or died prior to their existence.



Care to back up that assertion with something other than your "normal" anecdotes?



The number of citations may be meaningless, but let's actually see what this guy was doing:

"Three miners have died there since 1998, and the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration cited Upper Big Branch for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday, proposing $1.89 million in fines, according to federal records."

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that those miners didn't die because of a lid missing off a trash can.

"t is not unusual for a mine to receive a substantial number of citations, she said, but the recent violations involving the mine's ventilation system are a red flag. It's a signal that something is not right there, something is going wrong at that mine."

oh...

"Officials have the authority to shutter a mine under federal law if they find "a history of repeated and significant and substantial violations," but safety citations have rarely, if ever, led federal officials to order the closure of a mine.

One reason, those officials said Tuesday, is that companies can contest citations and fines proposed by the government, which delays their effect.

The company has contested nearly a third of the violations it has received since 2005, focusing on those carrying the costliest penalties. Its appeals have held up about $1.3 million in proposed penalties for the violations, records show."

"Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.) suggested that investigators look at how mining companies have drawn out the appeals process, noting that the process could potentially delay closing unsafe mines for years."

Sounds to me that the regulations actually need to be tougher than they were at this point, to stop criminally negligent mining companies from spinning out the appeals process rather than actually fixing potentially lethal safety hazards.

But, yeh, "lid off a trash can" .

Massey Energy has litany of critics, violations

West Virginia mine has been cited for myriad safety violations
Well, if direct experience of the matter is of no bearing to someone with no experience in the matter, you are correct no use giving you actual experiences since with all due respect, it appears your mind is very closed to considering realty in this instance.

If you honestly believe that all the regulations are by definition beneficial, then I assume you have not much experience in dealing with regulations or regulators in an industrial environment, so I am unsure how you could be so sure of your opinion without experience. It is not having safety and environmental regulations that is the problem, it is when they are excessive or simply like regulations from any bureaucratic agency over-time the result can be more regulations just to justify themselves.

So if you don't have interest in actual experiences, then do I post industry viewpoints ? Then the source will be questioned because of bias ( I admit though few businesses will welcome regulations). So I am unsure what I could post to respond to your comments.

In fact such an attitude as I understand your post is exactly what I am referring to- just because there is a regulation it doesn't mean it is a good regulation, or cannot be improved; or politicians put pressure on regulators to show "results" whether those are the results one wants. Increasing the number of violations looks good on paper, but it is the type of violations that matters.

As far as being of some "ilk" I have learnt on BE it is acceptable to be insulting or use pejorative words to describe other posters, strangely often from those who portray themselves as champions of tolerance.
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