this really upset me.
Apr 16th 2017, 3:50 am
#61
Account Closed
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 0
Re: this really upset me.
Whereas leaving them on the street corner without giving them cash obviously sorts them right out.
People who have background advantages - family or others who still care about them, education, no mental illness, etc., - may make it out. Or not.
It is estimated that over half a million people are homeless in the US, although how they can count that god knows. Hundreds freeze to death every winter. Others die becaues they get no medical treatment for their problems.
Another vast number of people are one missed paycheck away from being in the same situation through no fault of their own. I know, I've been there - I have never had any drug, booze, psychological etc issues in my life, and I did nothing wrong at all. I just had a series of personal and economic misfortunes. Thanks to my education and general advantageous background I kept it together - just - but have been down to $0s, literally, from check to check. I never had to ask for money, but I was absolutely at risk, with my small child to look after. A (mostly) former poster here once sent me $20 in the post so I could buy my son a small present. I won't ever forget that - kindness from strangers can be a big part of helping someone back up because it's a sign that someone still considers you to be a person worth helping and it keeps you in the circle of "normal people". It's a mistake to make generalisations about how and why people end up where they do, and even more so to judge what's good for them and what is not without knowing the individual situation. That's buying into the whole Victorian deserving/underserving poor thing. I find Americans to be afraid of poverty - they seem to think it's catching and I watch them give a wide berth to people on the street asking for money, just in case.
People who have background advantages - family or others who still care about them, education, no mental illness, etc., - may make it out. Or not.
It is estimated that over half a million people are homeless in the US, although how they can count that god knows. Hundreds freeze to death every winter. Others die becaues they get no medical treatment for their problems.
Another vast number of people are one missed paycheck away from being in the same situation through no fault of their own. I know, I've been there - I have never had any drug, booze, psychological etc issues in my life, and I did nothing wrong at all. I just had a series of personal and economic misfortunes. Thanks to my education and general advantageous background I kept it together - just - but have been down to $0s, literally, from check to check. I never had to ask for money, but I was absolutely at risk, with my small child to look after. A (mostly) former poster here once sent me $20 in the post so I could buy my son a small present. I won't ever forget that - kindness from strangers can be a big part of helping someone back up because it's a sign that someone still considers you to be a person worth helping and it keeps you in the circle of "normal people". It's a mistake to make generalisations about how and why people end up where they do, and even more so to judge what's good for them and what is not without knowing the individual situation. That's buying into the whole Victorian deserving/underserving poor thing. I find Americans to be afraid of poverty - they seem to think it's catching and I watch them give a wide berth to people on the street asking for money, just in case.
It certainly is a scary feeling, I'm sorry you had to go through this.
When you have young kids and your situation is dire it is the worst feeling in the world. What got to me was the kids wanting to know where they would be going to school after the summer vacation and we really couldn't say because we had no idea where we would be living. Circumstances can change so quickly, it's not something you forget either. Having a home, your own address, somewhere private and familiar is something we all take for granted until it is not there anymore. When you've been there you look at people in that same situation and know how hard it is to be there, to hope you can get back to normal and things will change for the better. Life really can suck when you're poor and there are few resources to help you.
Apr 16th 2017, 3:53 am
#62
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,448
Re: this really upset me.
There is a federal estate tax, you probably don't meet the numbers. For tax year 2016 its 5.45 million. If you died in 2016 and your estate is worth more than that, the uncle sam is taking some. It's a sliding rate from 18% topping off at 40% if your estate was valued at 6.45 million or more. That tax rate is only on the money over 5.45 million. That does not include whatever state death tax there is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate..._United_States ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate..._United_States ....
This effects a very small % of US taxpayers. But it does end up taking 40% of the super rich's estate when they die. Like all of Sam Walton's kids. That's why after 3 or 4 generations typically the fortune is gone. The Woolworths, Vanderbilts etc by the 4th generation the money was long gone. Of course it didn't help that most of the Woolworth and Vanderbilt kids/grandkids never worked, they where "the idle rich" types.
If you can't grow your wealth by 40% between generations then there is something dramatically wrong. .... And if you don't obtain professional advice and mitigate much of the potential 40% estate tax then you are an idiot.
Apr 16th 2017, 4:18 am
#63
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: this really upset me.
Very true. The US outlook is based on everyone working, trying to better themselves economically. This is why the US has inheritance(death) taxes ultimately to prevent generational(class) wealth. It's why health insurance is employment based, why the first day on the job you don't automatically get 5 weeks vacation, it's why stores don't close mid day for an afternoon nap.
Apart from all that, good post!
Last edited by Giantaxe; Apr 16th 2017 at 5:14 am.
Apr 16th 2017, 5:17 am
#64
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: this really upset me.
Most homeless people fall into three categories, drug or alcohol addicted, mentally ill or with criminal records.
The mentally ill in California were taken care of in state institutions until it was decided that those who posed no danger to society should not be kept locked up.
The mentally ill in California were taken care of in state institutions until it was decided that those who posed no danger to society should not be kept locked up.
Apr 16th 2017, 5:53 am
#65
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: this really upset me.
It is around half the total prison population .
The issues around Maori* /Pakeha are varied and very complex & perhaps for another thread which may interest some.
* Do not state, utter, write 'the Maori' . It's a big no-no that can earn one a whole lot of harumphs. It is Maori.
The issues around Maori* /Pakeha are varied and very complex & perhaps for another thread which may interest some.
* Do not state, utter, write 'the Maori' . It's a big no-no that can earn one a whole lot of harumphs. It is Maori.
I place them in the same category as the Australian Aborigines and the American and Canadian Indians. Displaced and swept away in the world of the white man
Apr 16th 2017, 5:56 am
#66
Banned
Joined: Dec 2015
Location: california
Posts: 6,035
Re: this really upset me.
I'm a firm believer that people should be held accountable for their own actions. There are those who are homeless through no fault of their own and there are those who are homeless because they keep making poor decisions. This latter group includes drug abusers. I have great sympathy for those in the former group - they likely don't want to be in that situation and actively try to improve their circumstances. I have no sympathy for the latter - they've chosen to be in that situation. If they die in the night, it solves both their own and society's problem.
Mine is likely not a popular opinion. I'm reminded of the Sherlock Holmes story: The Man with the Twisted Lip.
Ian
Mine is likely not a popular opinion. I'm reminded of the Sherlock Holmes story: The Man with the Twisted Lip.
Ian
And in the words of a certain Mr Ebeneezer Scrooge " help reduce the surplus population.
You're a real charmer aint ya ?
Apr 16th 2017, 11:13 am
#67
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: this really upset me.
I am in a real dilemma here. I have always preferred the risk of being conned by a beggar with a BMW round the corner to ignoring someone in desperate need. However are we just perpetuating the problem?
Apr 16th 2017, 12:16 pm
#68
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: this really upset me.
For those that live in the abject fear and horror that their $1 hand-to-hand donation will go to something other than exactly what your own personal morality deems legitimate ...
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
Apr 16th 2017, 12:25 pm
#69
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,545
Re: this really upset me.
2016's Shocking Homelessness Statistics
A common but quite incorrect idea. See the link above. The homeless are families, children, regular single people and a large percentage of them even have jobs (but don't have enough money to pay rent, put together a deposit, or can't pass a credit check).
A common but quite incorrect idea. See the link above. The homeless are families, children, regular single people and a large percentage of them even have jobs (but don't have enough money to pay rent, put together a deposit, or can't pass a credit check).
Apr 16th 2017, 12:32 pm
#70
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,545
Re: this really upset me.
For those that live in the abject fear and horror that their $1 hand-to-hand donation will go to something other than exactly what your own personal morality deems legitimate ...
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
Or, as a friend of mine once said, "if you want to help a poor person give them some money". It's patronizing to assume that just because you are better off than the other person that you know better than they do what's good for them and think that you have to make decisions for them. I once worked in an organization that provided an overnight shelter along with food, showers, haircuts, and a place to do laundry. People do not become "other" because they become homeless.
Apr 16th 2017, 1:26 pm
#71
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,545
Re: this really upset me.
When you have young kids and your situation is dire it is the worst feeling in the world. What got to me was the kids wanting to know where they would be going to school after the summer vacation and we really couldn't say because we had no idea where we would be living. Circumstances can change so quickly, it's not something you forget either. Having a home, your own address, somewhere private and familiar is something we all take for granted until it is not there anymore. When you've been there you look at people in that same situation and know how hard it is to be there, to hope you can get back to normal and things will change for the better. Life really can suck when you're poor and there are few resources to help you.
And people in this situation are all around us.
Apr 16th 2017, 1:42 pm
#72
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: this really upset me.
For those that live in the abject fear and horror that their $1 hand-to-hand donation will go to something other than exactly what your own personal morality deems legitimate ...
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
... it is not outside of the realm of possibility that you donate to a food pantry, homeless shelter, Meals on Wheels, battered women's shelter, Goodwill or the Salvation Army.
Apr 16th 2017, 2:06 pm
#73
WTF?
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Homeostasis
Posts: 79,367
Re: this really upset me.
My post wasn't directed at you specifically. The tone was set much earlier in the thread. However, I think that the beggar with a BMW around the corner is something that people hear about on a trashy news outlet and then they assign those behaviors to the majority of the poor and homeless. It's easier to let your fellow man suffer if you can convince yourself that they're all liars or bad people that brought it on themselves.
Apr 16th 2017, 2:28 pm
#74
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: this really upset me.
My post wasn't directed at you specifically. The tone was set much earlier in the thread. However, I think that the beggar with a BMW around the corner is something that people hear about on a trashy news outlet and then they assign those behaviors to the majority of the poor and homeless. It's easier to let your fellow man suffer if you can convince yourself that they're all liars or bad people that brought it on themselves.
Apr 16th 2017, 4:12 pm
#75
Austin. TX.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,930
Re: this really upset me.
The last few days and many of these posts have had me thinking about giving money to the beggar on the street vs donating to a charity. I don't mean the 2 are mutually exclusive but that they serve different ends for us, the donators..(is that a word? haven't had coffee yet!)
Certainly, the people on the streets do all they can to make us feel sorry for them or perhaps a little guilty as we swan by in our expensive cars. Do we give to them to make us feel better about ourselves? I don't usually give to people on the streets, my preference is to give to charities that look after them or to volunteer in some way. I think this is more effective and allows these charities to increase the aid they can give. They actually do know how best to help people, how to help them get off the street and into a more secure environment. I don't and I try hard not to make judgments.
This Italian woman, I haven't seen her since and I haven't had a chance to talk to my neighbour either. What I have realised about this encounter though is how damn easily anyone of us could end up in her situation. Time to do my best that I don't.
On a related note, I have used some budgeting software called YNAB for many years. Over the last 2 in particular it has been a godsend as I know exactly how much I need for everything, and where I can make savings. Building up a buffer,not living paycheck to paycheck is one of it's founding principles. I encourage you to take a look at it. There's also a guy and a site called mrmoneymustache which has been an excellent source of information
Certainly, the people on the streets do all they can to make us feel sorry for them or perhaps a little guilty as we swan by in our expensive cars. Do we give to them to make us feel better about ourselves? I don't usually give to people on the streets, my preference is to give to charities that look after them or to volunteer in some way. I think this is more effective and allows these charities to increase the aid they can give. They actually do know how best to help people, how to help them get off the street and into a more secure environment. I don't and I try hard not to make judgments.
This Italian woman, I haven't seen her since and I haven't had a chance to talk to my neighbour either. What I have realised about this encounter though is how damn easily anyone of us could end up in her situation. Time to do my best that I don't.
On a related note, I have used some budgeting software called YNAB for many years. Over the last 2 in particular it has been a godsend as I know exactly how much I need for everything, and where I can make savings. Building up a buffer,not living paycheck to paycheck is one of it's founding principles. I encourage you to take a look at it. There's also a guy and a site called mrmoneymustache which has been an excellent source of information