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Playing the Constitution card.

Playing the Constitution card.

Old Apr 7th 2017, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I would have thought that any responsible parent would want her to be taken to a safe space where she isn't exposed to such rampant nationalism.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 5:45 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
Do you really care that much if/when someone sits or doesn't sing it though? Plus that is a song that implores the deity to save the monarch, whereas the Pledge literally says 'with liberty and justice for all', even though that is not always the case, but I suppose you can't have an asterisk with the phrase 'terms and conditions apply'.

It's just a little poem. Absolutely nobody is hurt by a child not standing for it. Christ on a bike, this is a ridiculous argument.
Obviously there can never be a meeting of the minds on subjects such as this. We are what we believe in. As an immigrant and naturalized US citizen I see no sense in causing offense to the people of my host nation by sitting down at a baseball game while the Star Spangled Banner was sung and for whatever it's faults the US is still the best place in the world to be living in.

As for the eleven year old child it's obvious that her ideas have been formed by the opinions of others. A child's mind is like a blank page. What gets written on it is very much of what the parents think and believe. Fortunately as they grow older they form their own opinions. I would not encourage any child of mine to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Schools, especially the middle and high school years are challenging enough these days without having to be a stand out among their peers.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 5:46 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
Do you really care that much if/when someone sits or doesn't sing it though? Plus that is a song that implores the deity to save the monarch, whereas the Pledge literally says 'with liberty and justice for all', even though that is not always the case, but I suppose you can't have an asterisk with the phrase 'terms and conditions apply'.

It's just a little poem. Absolutely nobody is hurt by a child not standing for it. Christ on a bike, this is a ridiculous argument.
There is a group of people who expect conformity and they seem to be threatened (or offended, to use their own words) by those that do not do as they do. I see no other explanation than that people behaving differently threatens their own sense of self worth. We see it in political rituals and religion. It seems to be most evident in those that follow the more authoritarian approaches.

There is no disrespect in not saying the pledge, the 1943 case put it eloquently:
Of course, many people pay lip service to our national ensign, who have in their hearts no reverence for the flag or for the principles for which it stands, and an enforced gesture or word of respect is of no benefit to anyone. Acts of disrespect or insult must be punished, but we are not here concerned with any such question.

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Old Apr 7th 2017, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
Obviously there can never be a meeting of the minds on subjects such as this. We are what we believe in. As an immigrant and naturalized US citizen I see no sense in causing offense to the people of my host nation by sitting down at a baseball game while the Star Spangled Banner was sung and for whatever it's faults the US is still the best place in the world to be living in.

As for the eleven year old child it's obvious that her ideas have been formed by the opinions of others. A child's mind is like a blank page. What gets written on it is very much of what the parents think and believe. Fortunately as they grow older they form their own opinions. I would not encourage any child of mine to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Schools, especially the middle and high school years are challenging enough these days without having to be a stand out among their peers.
We either strive for conformity or for self awareness and development.
Choice of language is enlightening, she is not refusing, she is declining an invitation. The choice of the word "refuse" in this context, is informative of ones expectations.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:02 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
Obviously there can never be a meeting of the minds on subjects such as this. We are what we believe in. As an immigrant and naturalized US citizen I see no sense in causing offense to the people of my host nation by sitting down at a baseball game while the Star Spangled Banner was sung and for whatever it's faults the US is still the best place in the world to be living in.
It isn't your host nation anymore, it's your home. You're naturalized and are as much a part of the US as anyone who was born here. If, for the sake of argument, you opted to sit during the national anthem, sure some people might get weird about it but it is absolutely protected under your First Amendment rights.

It's fine for someone to not sing an anthem, or not recite the pledge. It is not the norm but it is nothing that anybody should be punished for, singled out for or anything else.

Originally Posted by dc koop
As for the eleven year old child it's obvious that her ideas have been formed by the opinions of others. A child's mind is like a blank page. What gets written on it is very much of what the parents think and believe. Fortunately as they grow older they form their own opinions. I would not encourage any child of mine to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Schools, especially the middle and high school years are challenging enough these days without having to be a stand out among their peers.
Eh, I disagree. Children do have minds of their own even at a young age and it is for us to teach them right and wrong, not to force them to blindly fall in line behind everyone else because it's convenient.

If we didn't have people who weren't afraid to stand out among their peers, the US would not have gained independence and we wouldn't even be able to have this lively discussion.

Originally Posted by kimilseung
There is a group of people who expect conformity and they seem to be threatened (or offended, to use their own words) by those that do not do as they do. I see no other explanation than that people behaving differently threatens their own sense of self worth. We see it in political rituals and religion. It seems to be most evident in those that follow the more authoritarian approaches.
Very true.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:26 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
It isn't your host nation anymore, it's your home. You're naturalized and are as much a part of the US as anyone who was born here. If, for the sake of argument, you opted to sit during the national anthem, sure some people might get weird about it but it is absolutely protected under your First Amendment rights.

It's fine for someone to not sing an anthem, or not recite the pledge. It is not the norm but it is nothing that anybody should be punished for, singled out for or anything else.



Eh, I disagree. Children do have minds of their own even at a young age and it is for us to teach them right and wrong, not to force them to blindly fall in line behind everyone else because it's convenient.

If we didn't have people who weren't afraid to stand out among their peers, the US would not have gained independence and we wouldn't even be able to have this lively discussion.



Very true.
We're all conformists. That's why we don't walk around bollack naked in public or rob a bank first thing in the morning. We respect the feelings of others to not be offended and we respect the laws of the land for the peace and well being of society as a whole.

You're probably too young to have lived through the 60s. The turn on, drop out, flag burning generation. Where are all those dissenters now? Those that are still alive of course. Why, they're all grand parents, worried about job security, their 401Ks, their cholesterol and BP levels and lecturing their grand kids about drug addiction and sexual promiscuity. Many of them even voted for Trump who they see as a symbol of conformity and law and order.

So this youthful sense of non-conformity and dissent is just a joke and a passing phase in this modern age . Whether you like it or not you too mate are a conformist as we all are in the end

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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:39 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
We're all conformists. That's why we don't walk around bollack naked in public or rob a bank first thing in the morning.
We don't do those things because they are illegal. There's a difference between individualism and anarchy. No need for obfuscation.

Originally Posted by dc koop
We respect the feelings of others to not be offended
Ehhhhhhh, not necessarily. Certainly not always.

Originally Posted by dc koop
and we respect the laws of the land for the peace and well being of society as a whole.
Finally, you got one right.

Originally Posted by dc koop
You're probably too young to have lived through the 60s. The turn on, drop out, flag burning generation. Where are all those dissenters now? Those that are still alive of course. Why, they're middle aged grand parents, worried about job security, their 401Ks, their cholesterol and BP levels and lecturing their grand kids about drug addiction and sexual promiscuity. Many of them even voted for Trump who they see as a symbol of conformity and law and order.
It doesn't matter when I was born, but it's interesting that you are able to speak for an entire generation of millions of people as if you know each one individually.

Society is a spectrum, not a series of convenient little pigeon holes. For every one person who lived through the 1960s as you described, there are just as many who still believe the things they did and aren't doing any of the above.

Originally Posted by dc koop
So this youthful sense of non-conformity and dissent is just a joke and a passing phase in this modern age . Whether you like it or not you too mate are a conformist as we all are in the end
An 11 year old girl who is choosing to sit during a recitation of the pledge is not 'dissent', it is her Constitutional right. Understand that not everyone is a statist robot hiding behind a thin veil of playing devil's advocate like you.

What's happening in this thread is that a group of adults have been having a go at her for using her own brain, which is just sad.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
... whatever it's faults the US is still the best place in the world to be living in.
I disagree - and I'm also an immigrant and naturalized USC. I'm not sure there's actual proof that the US is "the best place in the world to be living" although it certainly has the potential to become that.


Fortunately as they grow older they form their own opinions.
At what age, exactly, does that happen? The problem with your position is that, in this case at least, it implies application only to someone older than eleven. Perhaps she started to express her individualism at age nine! It happens... perhaps not often, but it does. I don't understand why you and others have assumed she's not able to form her own opinion in this matter.

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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:51 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
We don't do those things because they are illegal. There's a difference between individualism and anarchy. No need for obfuscation.



Ehhhhhhh, not necessarily. Certainly not always.



Finally, you got one right.



It doesn't matter when I was born, but it's interesting that you are able to speak for an entire generation of millions of people as if you know each one individually.

Society is a spectrum, not a series of convenient little pigeon holes. For every one person who lived through the 1960s as you described, there are just as many who still believe the things they did and aren't doing any of the above.



An 11 year old girl who is choosing to sit during a recitation of the pledge is not 'dissent', it is her Constitutional right. Understand that not everyone is a statist robot hiding behind a thin veil of playing devil's advocate like you.

What's happening in this thread is that a group of adults have been having a go at her for using her own brain, which is just sad.


Well what did the OP expect ? You choose to raise a controversial subject on a discussion forum and you expose yourself to the various reactions of other members. That's what it's all about. I hope the child isn't subject to harassment and negative reaction from her peers. Kids don't have the maturity to use common sense as adults do. May she thrive and be well in all things. I'm done.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 6:58 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
Well what did the OP expect ? You choose to raise a controversial subject on a discussion forum and you expose yourself to the various reactions of other members. That's what it's all about. I hope the child isn't subject to harassment and negative reaction from her peers. Kids don't have the maturity to use common sense as adults do. May she thrive and be well in all things. I'm done.
Not standing during the pledge is somehow 'controversial'? I think you're vastly overplaying that one. Yeah, it's maybe a bit more visible than simply not saying it, but it's hardly controversial.

I am sure she is not subject to any harassment from her peers. Children are usually much more mature than adults when it comes to this kind of thing.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 7:10 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Deciding where within the school building she should sit or stand while participating in an action she is constitutionally entitled to perform (i.e. not participate in reciting the Pledge), is "illegal"? That seems like a stretch! What next, school children demanding the right to be taught English in the science lab?
It might be. I speak as someone being sued for $1 million in US District Court for allegedly asking someone not to do what they wished to do exactly where they wish to do it.

Long story which once it is all over I may be able to tell.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 7:19 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
Well what did the OP expect ? You choose to raise a controversial subject on a discussion forum and you expose yourself to the various reactions of other members. That's what it's all about. I hope the child isn't subject to harassment and negative reaction from her peers. Kids don't have the maturity to use common sense as adults do. May she thrive and be well in all things. I'm done.
What an absolute kant, a parting shot, coded accusation of putting my child in danger.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 7:28 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by dc koop
You're probably too young to have lived through the 60s.
I lived through the 60s... and most of the 50s for that matter. Your brush is too full of paint because you've just smeared an entire generation. My wife lost many good friends in Vietnam... and the flag burning - which was, by the way, our Constitutional right under the 1st Amendment - indicated that we weren't satisfied with the way things were. We had the right to dissent - also protected by the 1st Amendment - and while some chose to see it as disrespect for the US, it was the exact opposite: hope that the US would improve! And it did.


Many of them even voted for Trump who they see as a symbol of conformity and law and order.
I'm sure some did... but I didn't.


So this youthful sense of non-conformity and dissent is just a joke and a passing phase in this modern age .
Why do you feel the need to be so condescending? And that's saying quite a bit coming from me!

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Old Apr 7th 2017, 7:29 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by kimilseung
What an absolute kant, a parting shot, coded accusation of putting my child in danger.
That was partially my fault for allowing myself to get into an argument rather than a discussion, so I apologise for that. I never once said, I hasten to point out to dc koop, that it is in any way wrong to say the pledge, sing the anthem or do any of that, merely that it is a person's Constitutional right to opt out.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Originally Posted by kimilseung

My eleven year old has decided that it is time to up her activism from not saying the Pledge of Allegiance at school, to choosing to sit during the time that other chose to participate in the Pledge.

She sounds like a great kid. Thoughtful, proactive, and willing to stand up (or sit down!) and be counted. More power to her.

It is ludicrous that children have to go though this silly ritual everyday. For the majority of them, they could be reciting a nursery rhyme for all they take notice of the words they are churning out by rote.
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