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Old Apr 7th 2017, 7:56 am   #1
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Default Playing the Constitution card.

After years of becoming increasingly sick of hearing about the Constitution, I may get my own opportunity to play the Constitution card in my favour.

My eleven year old has decided that it is time to up her activism from not saying the Pledge of Allegiance at school, to choosing to sit during the time that other chose to participate in the Pledge.

Her teacher has now sent her out of the room on at least three occasions for her choice. I sent the teacher an email today stating my expectations that I be informed if my child is being disruptive during the Pledge, and if she isnt that she not be removed from the classroom. We will see what happens tomorrow. But if she is removed again tomorrow, then my next email will be up the chain and explaining that my expectations are modest in that they only require that the school abide by the law and safeguard students Constitutionally protected rights under the First Amendment.

I cant decide if I want the teacher to see the error of her ways, or give me the chance to spout off about the Constitution, First Amendment, and Freedums in general!
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 9:23 am   #2
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
After years of becoming increasingly sick of hearing about the Constitution, I may get my own opportunity to play the Constitution card in my favour.

My eleven year old has decided that it is time to up her activism from not saying the Pledge of Allegiance at school, to choosing to sit during the time that other chose to participate in the Pledge.

Her teacher has now sent her out of the room on at least three occasions for her choice. I sent the teacher an email today stating my expectations that I be informed if my child is being disruptive during the Pledge, and if she isnt that she not be removed from the classroom. We will see what happens tomorrow. But if she is removed again tomorrow, then my next email will be up the chain and explaining that my expectations are modest in that they only require that the school abide by the law and safeguard students Constitutionally protected rights under the First Amendment.

I cant decide if I want the teacher to see the error of her ways, or give me the chance to spout off about the Constitution, First Amendment, and Freedums in general!
I guess you didn't see this weeks episode of Chicago Fire which actually dealt with this subject.
Basically one of their kids was doing the same. Problem was then resolved when the firefighter took their kid to a veterans pancake breakfast.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 10:18 am   #3
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Will the school simply quote their own rules/policy on the issue?

Don't schools restrict the freedoms of children in many ways?
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 12:06 pm   #4
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

I'm not going to argue the politics of this, but long story short I don't endorse what your daughters doing.

Hypothetically speaking, if this was my kid, my first step with the school would be to ask the teacher to move my kid to the back corner.

If the teacher refused and still booted the kid out I'd go speak to the principal.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 2:43 pm   #5
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

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Originally Posted by rebs View Post
Will the school simply quote their own rules/policy on the issue?

Don't schools restrict the freedoms of children in many ways?
They can try, though I doubt they will, I doubt the teachers actions are following district policy. There is case law here, going back to a 1943 Supreme Court decision, with further federal court decisions expanding. My 11 year old even independently researched the '43 case. So it is surprising that teachers still need parents or the UCLA to point out the law to schools every now and then
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 2:50 pm   #6
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

If you and your daughter so dislike and abhor the US, I need ask why the hell are your living here?
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 3:22 pm   #7
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

I don't think my children came across the pledge very much in MA or NY. When it did occur, they just recited the Richard Stands version.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 3:27 pm   #8
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
They can try, though I doubt they will, I doubt the teachers actions are following district policy. There is case law here, going back to a 1943 Supreme Court decision, with further federal court decisions expanding. My 11 year old even independently researched the '43 case. So it is surprising that teachers still need parents or the UCLA to point out the law to schools every now and then
So the school can't have some kind of generic, catch-all rule about pupils having to comply with any reasonable requests/instructions from teachers - that was the kind of thing I meant? Not particularly related specifically to the pledge, just a generic behaviour sort of thing.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 3:30 pm   #9
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

My sons came across it here in State College, but, as far as I know, there have been no issues with them not saying it. They are not the only non-US citizen pupils at their high school.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 3:41 pm   #10
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

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Originally Posted by Rete View Post
If you and your daughter so dislike and abhor the US, I need ask why the hell are your living here?
That is an interesting interpretation, given how she is celebrating the First Amendment and her Rights under the Constitution. She is celebrating civic engagement and understanding the rights she has.

No one mentioned anything regarding "abhor the US" but it is enlightening that you see a correlation between that and standing up for the Constitution and rights, and opposition to illegal actions of those with power.

I do wonder where you think a natural born American citizen should go live instead.

Quote:
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So the school can't have some kind of generic.....
Not if it goes against the highest laws of the land. I have asked to be informed if my daughter is being disruptive in anyway, so that I can be clear that her exclusion is related to the Pledge (illegal) or if it is more generic because of other issues. The teacher said "If you cant stand for the pledge, you shouldnt be in the room", this seems to have sealed her illegality in my layman's view.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette 1943 set the general right not to be coerced
Tinker v. Des Moines School Dist. 1969 for the ability to sit
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 3:59 pm   #11
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

I got that interpretation from your comment about being sick of hearing about the Constitution and your daughter's action in not standing while others recite the Pledge. She can stand out of respect for the country she is living in. She does not have to recite the words if she doesn't wish to. I stand for other countries' national anthems, i.e. Canada's when I'm there and it is played, but don't sing the words or even pretend to by opening and closing my mouth. This is an old argument in these forums.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 4:12 pm   #12
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rete View Post
I got that interpretation from your comment about being sick of hearing about the Constitution and your daughter's action in not standing while others recite the Pledge. She can stand out of respect for the country she is living in. She does not have to recite the words if she doesn't wish to. I stand for other countries' national anthems, i.e. Canada's when I'm there and it is played, but don't sing the words or even pretend to by opening and closing my mouth. This is an old argument in these forums.
She has stood and not recited it for, what? about six years now. She made the decision that she now wishes to distance herself from it further. She outlined three reasons why to me, when I asked her about why she made the decision (this was to see if I should be supporting her or not) Her reasons are:
1. She doesnt believe in God
2. People are not equal in America, there is not justice for all.
3. People of her age are too young to make such decisions and commitments of allegiance to nation states.
Now it is true that she may have heard these sentiments expressed in her household in one way or another at times, but she came up with them unprompted and passionately. She researched law independently. For an eleven year old, I am impressed. I accept them as her believe and position, as much as an eleven year old can have such. She is an American, these are her values. Ergo, they are American values. In fact, what she talked about is generally and widely accepted as American values.
But I am sure she will appreciate you adultsplaining to her that she should be following what you do and believe.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 4:14 pm   #13
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

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Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
No one mentioned anything regarding "abhor the US" but it is enlightening that you see a correlation between that and standing up for the Constitution and rights, and opposition to illegal actions of those with power.
No one is seeing a "correlation between that and standing up for the Constitution and rights". Not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance indicates disrespect for the United States. That is the point being made here.

Also, bringing in the "illegal actions of those in power" is deflection on your part and irrelevant.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 4:16 pm   #14
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
She has stood and not recited it for, what? about six years now. She made the decision that she now wishes to distance herself from it further. She outlined three reasons why to me, when I asked her about why she made the decision (this was to see if I should be supporting her or not) Her reasons are:
1. She doesnt believe in God
2. People are not equal in America, there is not justice for all.
3. People of her age are too young to make such decisions and commitments of allegiance to nation states.
There's a difference between seeing legitimate problems with the US wanting to improve things in the US and total disrespect for the entire country. This nuance seems lost on you.
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Old Apr 7th 2017, 4:16 pm   #15
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Default Re: Playing the Constitution card.

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Also, bringing in the "illegal actions of those in power" is deflection on your part and irrelevant.
I await you explaining how it is irrelevant, when it is the core of the issue. Without it, there would be no issue, my daughter would not be getting excluded from class.
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