OT: Am I the only one...?
Mar 4th 2001, 12:20 am
#31
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Posts: n/a
Just my opinions..
Sometimes, even when you read the FAQ, it's still confusing. And, when a small error can
make a huge difference in your life - perhaps delay an application for another few months
it's not enough to read the FAQ, I think that sometimes people need the reassurance of an
actual response.
This is a situation where tiny errors loom large, and sadly, the US government which
should be able to inform citizens, immigrants and potential immigrants on the process
does an incredibly shitty job. (Each time I call the INS to speak to a so-called
"information officer" I swear it will be the last time)
So, I'm sorry that the experienced folks are annoyed by stupid questions. And so many of
you have done a huge amount of work and graciously (well, usually graciously) take the
time to assemble your experiences and respond to the endless questions of beginners. But
sometimes people forget that they didn't pop out of the womb completely knowing about the
immigration process either. All of you had to learn this at one time or the other.
Although, I can also see how frustrating it must be to have done all this work, and
assemble FAQs and answer questions only to see the same questions over and over again. So
those of us who are relatively new to the group should scan the questions and FAQs and see
if the question has been asked and answered in the recent past. But sometimes, the FAQ is
cold and lifeless and a specific response or reassurance makes a lot of difference.
Elaine
Sometimes, even when you read the FAQ, it's still confusing. And, when a small error can
make a huge difference in your life - perhaps delay an application for another few months
it's not enough to read the FAQ, I think that sometimes people need the reassurance of an
actual response.
This is a situation where tiny errors loom large, and sadly, the US government which
should be able to inform citizens, immigrants and potential immigrants on the process
does an incredibly shitty job. (Each time I call the INS to speak to a so-called
"information officer" I swear it will be the last time)
So, I'm sorry that the experienced folks are annoyed by stupid questions. And so many of
you have done a huge amount of work and graciously (well, usually graciously) take the
time to assemble your experiences and respond to the endless questions of beginners. But
sometimes people forget that they didn't pop out of the womb completely knowing about the
immigration process either. All of you had to learn this at one time or the other.
Although, I can also see how frustrating it must be to have done all this work, and
assemble FAQs and answer questions only to see the same questions over and over again. So
those of us who are relatively new to the group should scan the questions and FAQs and see
if the question has been asked and answered in the recent past. But sometimes, the FAQ is
cold and lifeless and a specific response or reassurance makes a lot of difference.
Elaine
Mar 4th 2001, 12:52 am
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
That's where the confusion is. I'm not saying you shouldn't refer a person to the FAQ. The
FAQ is an excellent source of information that has been set up very well. I'm talking the
attitude that comes with it. When a thread subject gets changed to Doofus or people are
felt to feel like an idiot when they ask. Other posts from some newbies have said that
responses of this nature have made them to feel that way.
In case anyone is thinking it. No, I didn't have some bad experience with the
newsgroup at one time. I had met a lot of helpful people when we first started this
process. That's why I speak of all this now because it's become less newbie friendly
than it once was.
Cheers, Evan
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FAQ is an excellent source of information that has been set up very well. I'm talking the
attitude that comes with it. When a thread subject gets changed to Doofus or people are
felt to feel like an idiot when they ask. Other posts from some newbies have said that
responses of this nature have made them to feel that way.
In case anyone is thinking it. No, I didn't have some bad experience with the
newsgroup at one time. I had met a lot of helpful people when we first started this
process. That's why I speak of all this now because it's become less newbie friendly
than it once was.
Cheers, Evan
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Mar 4th 2001, 1:32 am
#33
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Posts: n/a
Evan and Sheila wrote:
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being rude to a new person isn't netiquette (it's usually frustration). being polite when
you are a new person in a group *is* netiquette, and a lot of it is common sense. people
who post questions here are asking favors, not demanding things they're entitled to.
reading a bit and seeing how things work is simple politeness. checking to be sure the
question you have wasn't answered six times in the last month is simple politeness.
i don't think answering rudeness with rudeness is a good idea, but i can understand the
frustration that people who do resort to it feel.
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no. the purpose of the newsgroup is to discuss purple dinosaurs. asking if they have green
tongues without checking to see if the tongue colors of purple dinosaurs have been
discussed recently is not just rude, it's lazy.
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e m forster
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being rude to a new person isn't netiquette (it's usually frustration). being polite when
you are a new person in a group *is* netiquette, and a lot of it is common sense. people
who post questions here are asking favors, not demanding things they're entitled to.
reading a bit and seeing how things work is simple politeness. checking to be sure the
question you have wasn't answered six times in the last month is simple politeness.
i don't think answering rudeness with rudeness is a good idea, but i can understand the
frustration that people who do resort to it feel.
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no. the purpose of the newsgroup is to discuss purple dinosaurs. asking if they have green
tongues without checking to see if the tongue colors of purple dinosaurs have been
discussed recently is not just rude, it's lazy.
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e m forster
Mar 4th 2001, 1:40 am
#34
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Posts: n/a
It may not be just laziness. The new person may not have access to the entire history of
the newsgroup. My ISP only allows me access to very recent postings.
Jill
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-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
the newsgroup. My ISP only allows me access to very recent postings.
Jill
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-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Mar 4th 2001, 1:45 am
#35
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sine nomine wrote:
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I think the entire concept of 'netiquette' is bogus; as if there should be different
standards of behaviour depending on your situation. There is no excuse for being rude
to someone who isn't being rude themselves, and (IMO) also no reason to be rude to
someone who was rude to you. (This isn't directed to anyone in particular.. just a
general comment).
The point about not asking questions that have been answered a dozen times in the last
month is valid; however in my case,messages only stay on the server about 4 days. It would
be difficult for me to know if any question has already been asked many times. I consider
myself fairly competent online, but I've never dealt with deja or any other thing that has
archived messages.
I think that if a question is stupid, or easily discovered elsewhere, and it bothers you,
simply don't answer; and if you do answer be polite. Just my opinion.
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I think the entire concept of 'netiquette' is bogus; as if there should be different
standards of behaviour depending on your situation. There is no excuse for being rude
to someone who isn't being rude themselves, and (IMO) also no reason to be rude to
someone who was rude to you. (This isn't directed to anyone in particular.. just a
general comment).
The point about not asking questions that have been answered a dozen times in the last
month is valid; however in my case,messages only stay on the server about 4 days. It would
be difficult for me to know if any question has already been asked many times. I consider
myself fairly competent online, but I've never dealt with deja or any other thing that has
archived messages.
I think that if a question is stupid, or easily discovered elsewhere, and it bothers you,
simply don't answer; and if you do answer be polite. Just my opinion.
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Mar 4th 2001, 2:00 am
#36
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Posts: n/a
So responding to people's questions, whatever the question may be, in a rude manner is
polite? There is such a drive behind people saying you must behave a certain way, follow
certain rules when first coming to the newsgroup. Yet there doesn't seem to be the idea
that perhaps those that have been here a while need to follow netiquette too. Please don't
respond to say they've earned the right. I won't even bother to discuss that point. No one
earns the right to be an ass to anyone. Perhaps there's a compromise in this discussion.
Yes, I agree that people need to research. The thing is it's been shown that there are
some that need to ask those dumb questions. Otherwise some people do in fact get it wrong.
So there needs to be some allowances there even though they do need to try and find the
information first. But to just stand there and say that someone who has been on the group
can behave in any way just because it's an faq is not correct either.
Yes, netiquette.. netiquette doesn't just apply to one person, it's for *all*.
Cheers, Evan
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polite? There is such a drive behind people saying you must behave a certain way, follow
certain rules when first coming to the newsgroup. Yet there doesn't seem to be the idea
that perhaps those that have been here a while need to follow netiquette too. Please don't
respond to say they've earned the right. I won't even bother to discuss that point. No one
earns the right to be an ass to anyone. Perhaps there's a compromise in this discussion.
Yes, I agree that people need to research. The thing is it's been shown that there are
some that need to ask those dumb questions. Otherwise some people do in fact get it wrong.
So there needs to be some allowances there even though they do need to try and find the
information first. But to just stand there and say that someone who has been on the group
can behave in any way just because it's an faq is not correct either.
Yes, netiquette.. netiquette doesn't just apply to one person, it's for *all*.
Cheers, Evan
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Mar 4th 2001, 4:59 am
#37
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Posts: n/a
IF asking a question whose answer can be found elsewhere is rude (and I'm still not
entirely convinced) that's fine. But it is, without doubt, more rude to tell someone their
loved one deserved to be turned away at the border, or calling someone lazy, or calling
them a doofus, or attacking them for asking about a Vegas wedding (when if they had just
put "OT" in the subject line, no one would have cared).
And now I just broke my own promise to stay away from this thread. It's just that I've
seen several people actually apologize in the last few days for asking a question, and
it's not my style to sit by and watch.
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entirely convinced) that's fine. But it is, without doubt, more rude to tell someone their
loved one deserved to be turned away at the border, or calling someone lazy, or calling
them a doofus, or attacking them for asking about a Vegas wedding (when if they had just
put "OT" in the subject line, no one would have cared).
And now I just broke my own promise to stay away from this thread. It's just that I've
seen several people actually apologize in the last few days for asking a question, and
it's not my style to sit by and watch.
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Mar 4th 2001, 8:50 am
#39
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Posts: n/a
I totaly agree with you and also want to point out that this newsgroups wouldn't make all
too much sense without newcomers. After all, if ti were only about ppl who've been around
for a long time, they don't need the advice anymore, cause they are already done with the
process. So, if somebody thinks it's too much work to answer similar questions again and
again, just don't answer or nicely inform about the FAQ. After all, everybody was a newbie
at one point. Also, not everyone who needs information is at the same time a
computer-expert and after all, this is not a ng-experts round, but it's for info about
marriage-based visas. Now, i can remember that i personaly was treated nicely when i
entered the group and maybe asked stupid questions and that's why i now also answer nicely
to questions that i can answer, no matter if they've been asked before.
So, ppl, don't blow this out of proportion and keep being nice to oneanother. And, that
some don't do research before asking or maybe tried but were hindered by their servers is
neither laziness or rudeness, maybe it's just lack of experience!? And another point, how
many questions can you really ask about the process without repeating questions already
been asked? Or, isn't a similar question asked by a person in a diffeent situation already
a new question?
Just my opinion! Take care!
regards, Marty (atsw)
too much sense without newcomers. After all, if ti were only about ppl who've been around
for a long time, they don't need the advice anymore, cause they are already done with the
process. So, if somebody thinks it's too much work to answer similar questions again and
again, just don't answer or nicely inform about the FAQ. After all, everybody was a newbie
at one point. Also, not everyone who needs information is at the same time a
computer-expert and after all, this is not a ng-experts round, but it's for info about
marriage-based visas. Now, i can remember that i personaly was treated nicely when i
entered the group and maybe asked stupid questions and that's why i now also answer nicely
to questions that i can answer, no matter if they've been asked before.
So, ppl, don't blow this out of proportion and keep being nice to oneanother. And, that
some don't do research before asking or maybe tried but were hindered by their servers is
neither laziness or rudeness, maybe it's just lack of experience!? And another point, how
many questions can you really ask about the process without repeating questions already
been asked? Or, isn't a similar question asked by a person in a diffeent situation already
a new question?
Just my opinion! Take care!
regards, Marty (atsw)
Mar 4th 2001, 11:43 am
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Actually the reason I replied like that was to give Ik a reason to put me in his killfile
not just that Alvena told him too..
Grinch
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not just that Alvena told him too..
Grinch
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Mar 4th 2001, 12:06 pm
#42
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Hey Bob,
You're looking at the old FidoNet (read fight-o-net) Syndrome. We used to get the same
type of flames and stuff there.(It also why I'm glad Usenet finally grew up.) It usually
turned out to be some kid in the range of 30 to 60 years old who either never grew up...or
was never taught any manners...or decided that since they don't have to face people they
can be as much of a jerk as they want.
However there is one point to make. If a person posts a blunt message but gives the
information that someone is asking for it usually means that whoever is asking will have a
much better chance of understanding the message. I mean I know guys out there if you ask
them how to start a car...they'll take you throught the entire assembly process before
they ever get to putting the key in the ignition...and by then you've usually forgot what
the question was...that is if you're still awake.
One thing that might be worth mentioning, and might stop some of this would be to have
someone put together a canned message that lists the FAQ web page, and a suggestion to
check the FAQ's out before asking questions and post it about once a week. Possibly with
some use rules for the group. I don't know if the group has a "moderator" in Fidonet
someone was "allegedly" the moderator of every message group, and with the exception of
the Sysop only groups it kept lots of flack down. Many people will ususally "lurk" for
some time before they post a message. If they lurk for at least a week such a message will
give them a chance to get information without running into or cross the grouches in the
group. They may even get an answer to their question without even having to participate in
the group.
As it is now...information on the FAQ etc comes out randomly and even if there is a
subject line about the FAQ...the message may not have the URL for the FAQ page.
Just a suggestion.
Jim
Real poeple know Unicorns exists...and stop on the road to let them pass.
-------Bob King said -------------
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You're looking at the old FidoNet (read fight-o-net) Syndrome. We used to get the same
type of flames and stuff there.(It also why I'm glad Usenet finally grew up.) It usually
turned out to be some kid in the range of 30 to 60 years old who either never grew up...or
was never taught any manners...or decided that since they don't have to face people they
can be as much of a jerk as they want.
However there is one point to make. If a person posts a blunt message but gives the
information that someone is asking for it usually means that whoever is asking will have a
much better chance of understanding the message. I mean I know guys out there if you ask
them how to start a car...they'll take you throught the entire assembly process before
they ever get to putting the key in the ignition...and by then you've usually forgot what
the question was...that is if you're still awake.
One thing that might be worth mentioning, and might stop some of this would be to have
someone put together a canned message that lists the FAQ web page, and a suggestion to
check the FAQ's out before asking questions and post it about once a week. Possibly with
some use rules for the group. I don't know if the group has a "moderator" in Fidonet
someone was "allegedly" the moderator of every message group, and with the exception of
the Sysop only groups it kept lots of flack down. Many people will ususally "lurk" for
some time before they post a message. If they lurk for at least a week such a message will
give them a chance to get information without running into or cross the grouches in the
group. They may even get an answer to their question without even having to participate in
the group.
As it is now...information on the FAQ etc comes out randomly and even if there is a
subject line about the FAQ...the message may not have the URL for the FAQ page.
Just a suggestion.
Jim
Real poeple know Unicorns exists...and stop on the road to let them pass.
-------Bob King said -------------
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Mar 4th 2001, 1:00 pm
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
I would wholeheartedly agree with Evan. Refer people to the FAQ- yes!! However, the "extra
baggage" attached to some "Read the FAQ" posts lately is solely intended to make someone
feel like an ignoramous and jackass. As a reader, it here I don't think its cool and it
just makes the respondants look like old sourpusses. =) I read Rita's post on "how to
avoid getting flamed" and I thought it had a lot of valid points. However, there's a
difference between teaching people nettiquette and out and out being rude to someone.
Cheers and happy marriage visa-ing! =)
Tiffiny
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baggage" attached to some "Read the FAQ" posts lately is solely intended to make someone
feel like an ignoramous and jackass. As a reader, it here I don't think its cool and it
just makes the respondants look like old sourpusses. =) I read Rita's post on "how to
avoid getting flamed" and I thought it had a lot of valid points. However, there's a
difference between teaching people nettiquette and out and out being rude to someone.
Cheers and happy marriage visa-ing! =)
Tiffiny
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Mar 4th 2001, 1:18 pm
#44
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Jim Deputy wrote:
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Mike, the faqdaddy, used to post the faq occasionally in the group..perhaps the new
mystery-man host for the faq would consider posting it occasionally?
alvena
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Mike, the faqdaddy, used to post the faq occasionally in the group..perhaps the new
mystery-man host for the faq would consider posting it occasionally?
alvena
Mar 4th 2001, 2:44 pm
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. However I think the last thing we need
is a whole bunch of rules for the newsgroup. If it went that far it shouldn't just be
drawn up for newbies either. It would need to be drawn up for Q's *and* A's.
Here's just a little thing to think about. Of all the people talking
about this there's an attitude that the newbies are whining. Yet, outside of
this thread do the newbies mention it in their other posts? I've only seen a
couple people make reference to this in their other posts as if they were a
child whining about it. That actually kind of made me laugh when I saw it.
And that's my whole thing. Being polite, helpful etc.. it needs to apply to both ends.
No, I know there are a lot of extremely helpful and kind people on this newsgroup.
There's just that loud few that are really starting to change the views of the new
people. Don't believe me, read the posts. It's happening.
Cheers, Evan
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is a whole bunch of rules for the newsgroup. If it went that far it shouldn't just be
drawn up for newbies either. It would need to be drawn up for Q's *and* A's.
Here's just a little thing to think about. Of all the people talking
about this there's an attitude that the newbies are whining. Yet, outside of
this thread do the newbies mention it in their other posts? I've only seen a
couple people make reference to this in their other posts as if they were a
child whining about it. That actually kind of made me laugh when I saw it.
And that's my whole thing. Being polite, helpful etc.. it needs to apply to both ends.
No, I know there are a lot of extremely helpful and kind people on this newsgroup.
There's just that loud few that are really starting to change the views of the new
people. Don't believe me, read the posts. It's happening.
Cheers, Evan
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get
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finally
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years
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decided that
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want.
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gives
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is
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I
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key in
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was...that is
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would be
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and a
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about once
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group
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every
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lots of
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post a
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the
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to
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there
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FAQ
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