Oregon incident.
Oct 2nd 2015, 12:46 pm
#31
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,447
Re: Oregon incident.
I've never understood this argument from the American right (and you). Does the sign at the entrance to a 'gun free zone' suck all the guns out of pockets, bags, holsters etc? Do the laws in 'gun free' cities such as Chicago, New York etc prevent people bringing in guns from elsewhere, maybe via a giant magnet? I'd love to know.
Oct 2nd 2015, 12:52 pm
#32
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: HH, New Jersey
Posts: 997
Re: Oregon incident.
Gun control and regulation does not automatically mean taking all guns away from everyone.
If you can require a license and insurance for a car then you can do it for guns.
Even making gun laws federal rather than state level, basic background checks, waiting times and prosecution of careless gun owners would be a start.
and don't start 2nd amendment BS, the constitution is not sacred and inviolable and unchangeable otherwise amendments 11-27 wouldn't exist. Even the guy who wrote the bloody thing said as much and it's plastered on the walls of the Jefferson memorial
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
If you can require a license and insurance for a car then you can do it for guns.
Even making gun laws federal rather than state level, basic background checks, waiting times and prosecution of careless gun owners would be a start.
and don't start 2nd amendment BS, the constitution is not sacred and inviolable and unchangeable otherwise amendments 11-27 wouldn't exist. Even the guy who wrote the bloody thing said as much and it's plastered on the walls of the Jefferson memorial
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
Oct 2nd 2015, 12:52 pm
#33
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: HH, New Jersey
Posts: 997
Re: Oregon incident.
ff
Last edited by BubbleChog; Oct 2nd 2015 at 12:53 pm. Reason: dulicate post
Oct 2nd 2015, 1:03 pm
#35
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Posts: 1,206
Re: 'Merica - now they're gunning down reporters
No one asks the question: if that Army vet, Mintz - who was shot 5 times when he charged the gunman - had had a weapon, how many lives would have been saved? Obviously making the college a gun-free zone took out all the danger for this crackpot until the police showed up. But the answer, of course, is to create yet more gun-free zones. As a testament to the effectiveness of gun control laws, Oregon had recently tightened up theirs. Clearly, in the balance between freedom and safety, the question of the rights of the mentally disturbed not to be placed into treatment facilities against their wishes before they go on killing rampages needs to be reconsidered.
[Also, on a side note, people, I'm shocked at the number of truly obese students depicted in the photos. Looking at the photos in the Daily Mail, it appears the photographer had to really search to find one girl who looked normal - or at least the normal before the eating frenzy that hit this country about 35 years ago. He showed her twice, once in a line of students and next sitting on the curb being hugged by yet another mortally obese person.]
Finally, this killer was one of ours.
[Also, on a side note, people, I'm shocked at the number of truly obese students depicted in the photos. Looking at the photos in the Daily Mail, it appears the photographer had to really search to find one girl who looked normal - or at least the normal before the eating frenzy that hit this country about 35 years ago. He showed her twice, once in a line of students and next sitting on the curb being hugged by yet another mortally obese person.]
Finally, this killer was one of ours.
Last edited by FlaviusAetius; Oct 2nd 2015 at 1:18 pm.
Oct 2nd 2015, 1:04 pm
#36
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Oregon incident.
The issue isn't with the 2nd Amendment, but with its misinterpretation.
The Second Amendment was about militia power, not about gun ownership. Two centuries later, we have a group of politically motivated lobbyists on the right who want to convince everyone that it is about gun control when that was never the intent.
The Second Amendment was about militia power, not about gun ownership. Two centuries later, we have a group of politically motivated lobbyists on the right who want to convince everyone that it is about gun control when that was never the intent.
Oct 2nd 2015, 1:05 pm
#37
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: 'Merica - now they're gunning down reporters
I did not realise there were so many full sized americans in Oregon?
Oct 2nd 2015, 1:11 pm
#39
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,447
Re: Oregon incident.
The issue isn't with the 2nd Amendment, but with its misinterpretation.
The Second Amendment was about militia power, not about gun ownership. Two centuries later, we have a group of politically motivated lobbyists on the right who want to convince everyone that it is about gun control when that was never the intent.
The Second Amendment was about militia power, not about gun ownership. Two centuries later, we have a group of politically motivated lobbyists on the right who want to convince everyone that it is about gun control when that was never the intent.
A militia assembles for duty with weapons they have brought with them, they keep them at home. Granted, the concept is a bit obsolete in America in the 21st century, but that is what the Constitution was talking about.
Last edited by Pulaski; Oct 2nd 2015 at 2:06 pm.
Oct 2nd 2015, 1:56 pm
#40
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: Oregon incident.
You apparently don't know what a "militia", is, despite this having been pointed out to you before.
A militia assembles for duty with weapons they have brought with them, they keep them at home. Granted, the concept is a bit obsolete in the 21st century, but that is what the Constitution was talking about.
A militia assembles for duty with weapons they have brought with them, they keep them at home. Granted, the concept is a bit obsolete in the 21st century, but that is what the Constitution was talking about.
Also, I think the National Guard now supersedes the need for a 'well regulated militia' anyway, so it's probably about time that people stop hiding behind the second amendment as it was written to fulfill a requirement that existed 200 years ago but don't now. It's a completely different world and it's about time we evolved a bit to fit into it.
I have, as I say many times on here, absolutely no problem whatsoever with people owning guns for hunting, target practice, home defense within reason; whatever they want, but only the most bull-headed, naïve, paranoid fools among us would take issue with addressing the need to regulate the privilege to own one (yes, it's a privilege, not a right to own a gun). This should include passing a test in order to get a license and regular tests of proficiency and suitability to carry during the rest of their life.
The driving license analogy gets us part way there, but I think a pilot's license is a better one. When you become a pilot you don't just get to fly planes indefinitely for the rest of your life, there is constant review and if at any point you fail to meet the criteria to be a pilot, you lose the privilege. Guns should be no different. Gun control/regulation, or what I think of as responsible ownership never equals an outright ban. Nobody is even suggesting that, but if someone has a problem with setting laws in place that makes it even a few percentage points less likely that we'll get shot for no apparent reason while we go about our day then quite frankly, you're beyond help.
Oct 2nd 2015, 2:03 pm
#41
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Oregon incident.
I have friends who are Pilots, one just re certified, he only has a couple of years left, 65 and that is it for Frontier anyway.
Always a nervous time and he has put a few pounds on since he married.
Not sure what that has to do with guns, but hey ho.
I picked up my new one yesterday, filled the form in which is quite a lot of crap info, wanted to know how much I weighed, now I have not been on the scales for a long time so guessed. Not sure what my current weight has to do with anything.
I suppose I could keep my weight updated annually, not sure what the point would be.
Always a nervous time and he has put a few pounds on since he married.
Not sure what that has to do with guns, but hey ho.
I picked up my new one yesterday, filled the form in which is quite a lot of crap info, wanted to know how much I weighed, now I have not been on the scales for a long time so guessed. Not sure what my current weight has to do with anything.
I suppose I could keep my weight updated annually, not sure what the point would be.
Oct 2nd 2015, 2:05 pm
#42
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Posts: 1,206
Re: Oregon incident.
It seems Oregon did recently tighten their gun laws:
"Local elected officials this year made universal background checks mandatory before the sale of any firearm in Oregon, one of 18 out of 50 states to do so. Elsewhere in the United States, sales at gun shows or on the Internet are not subject to such controls, a known loophole."
Oregon state had recently tightened gun laws
So it would not even have been possible to buy a firearm at a gun show without the background check. Unfortunately, those checks only show if a person has been convicted of some crime or other condition that disqualifies them. I suppoose there is no way to prevent an undiagnosed sociopath from buying one even with the new Oregon law.
Unfortunately, with 250 - 300 million guns in private hands in this country the cat is definitively out of the bag. It would be an effort equivalent to deporting 11 million illegals to get rid of all the guns - so not happening.
However, it is disturbing that self-righteous gun control advocates - who as a practical matter can offer no real-world solutions - so casually and routinely accuse the rest of us of being callous and accepting of these mass shootings.
Oregon state had recently tightened gun laws
So it would not even have been possible to buy a firearm at a gun show without the background check. Unfortunately, those checks only show if a person has been convicted of some crime or other condition that disqualifies them. I suppoose there is no way to prevent an undiagnosed sociopath from buying one even with the new Oregon law.
Unfortunately, with 250 - 300 million guns in private hands in this country the cat is definitively out of the bag. It would be an effort equivalent to deporting 11 million illegals to get rid of all the guns - so not happening.
However, it is disturbing that self-righteous gun control advocates - who as a practical matter can offer no real-world solutions - so casually and routinely accuse the rest of us of being callous and accepting of these mass shootings.
Oct 2nd 2015, 2:07 pm
#43
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Oregon incident.
That is a good analogy. Much much easier to deport illegals but the same people are saying that is impossible?
Oct 2nd 2015, 2:09 pm
#44
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: Oregon incident.
Boiler, if you can't understand what I was getting at, quite frankly you aren't mentally equipped to own a kitchen knife, let alone a firearm and ammunition.
Oct 2nd 2015, 2:11 pm
#45
Magnificently Withering
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,891
Re: Oregon incident.
It seems Oregon did recently tighten their gun laws:
"Local elected officials this year made universal background checks mandatory before the sale of any firearm in Oregon, one of 18 out of 50 states to do so. Elsewhere in the United States, sales at gun shows or on the Internet are not subject to such controls, a known loophole."
Oregon state had recently tightened gun laws
So it would not even have been possible to buy a firearm at a gun show without the background check. Unfortunately, those checks only show if a person has been convicted of some crime or other condition that disqualifies them. I suppoose there is no way to prevent an undiagnosed sociopath from buying one even with the new Oregon law.
Unfortunately, with 250 - 300 million guns in private hands in this country the cat is definitively out of the bag. It would be an effort equivalent to deporting 11 million illegals to get rid of all the guns - so not happening.
However, it is disturbing that self-righteous gun control advocates - who as a practical matter can offer no real-world solutions - so casually and routinely accuse the rest of us of being callous and accepting of these mass shootings.
Oregon state had recently tightened gun laws
So it would not even have been possible to buy a firearm at a gun show without the background check. Unfortunately, those checks only show if a person has been convicted of some crime or other condition that disqualifies them. I suppoose there is no way to prevent an undiagnosed sociopath from buying one even with the new Oregon law.
Unfortunately, with 250 - 300 million guns in private hands in this country the cat is definitively out of the bag. It would be an effort equivalent to deporting 11 million illegals to get rid of all the guns - so not happening.
However, it is disturbing that self-righteous gun control advocates - who as a practical matter can offer no real-world solutions - so casually and routinely accuse the rest of us of being callous and accepting of these mass shootings.
If I were the President I'd issue an Executive Order outlawing the NRA as an organization sponsoring terrorism. That'd give them something to bleat about.